Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: syd16 on October 26, 2023, 01:20:49 pm
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Apologies, the tribunal site has a form to fill in the reasons for appeal and a section for uploading evidence so I thought I needed to state my reason and that you were referring to the evidence section alone.
That is why we always urge appellants not to file an appeal themselves, we have the advantage of having been through the process a million times before and knowing the best approach.
Still, it all worked out on this occasion so no harm done.
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Well done. (Served/delivered are not always the same, particularly if weekends are involved or bank holidays.)
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Apologies, the tribunal site has a form to fill in the reasons for appeal and a section for uploading evidence so I thought I needed to state my reason and that you were referring to the evidence section alone.
Nonetheless, I received this letter today so the council are not contesting my appeal! Thanks everyone for your advice esp Pastmybest, just shows it's always worth fighting your case if you believe in it :)
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I have got to say , I am not happy that you ignored me and sent your reasons for appeal rather than just saying evidence to follow as i requested That said i agreed to represent you and will do so though i think the job is now harder.
Check every day now for the council evidence pack If it is not on the portal by tomorrow it is to late that will add another ground
You have sent the two grounds to tribunal I will send you an email with one other ground to use I will do this on Friday night or Saturday morning send it straight away
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bump for me
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Register your appeal with the tribunal.
In the section for evidence write. EI rely upon my representation to the council and further evidence i will submit at a later date". Nothing more Ask for a telephone hearing, you will then be given a date for a hearing I will represent you and will PM you my details and tell you what you need do when you have the date
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Thanks, I have 28 days from the rejection letter date (15th Dec) to appeal so have until next Friday 12th Jan to do it. What is the served/delivered argument?
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Wait for Pastmybest to come back. What is the date of the NOR? There is also a served/delivered argument which can be used. If PMB is not free, I am happy to do this one. Just be patient as you have time.
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Thanks all, I just saw the recent replies now as was waiting on Pastmybest to return from holiday. I will further appeal and take it to Tribunal since the fine will be the full rate now. I have no experience in this, any suggestions on my appeal..do I just state the same reasons as before in my appeal? Also any tips on the tribunal process?
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Clearly, the experts say it's Tribunal time.
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Because that carriageway is far in excess of 4.5 metres wide.
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Maybe I'm being thick but....
Why does not provision C of the yellow box rules of 9.7.6 not apply to make this a legal box?
ie
along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point;
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This is as close to a guaranteed win at tribunal as you can get so I'd definitely pursue it. In fact I suspect the council will fold before it gets there.
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I'd be interested to know how many council owned/operated vehicles the council fines for this ybj. I'd wager quite a few.
Don't give in op.
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i would carry on more to say after the holiday
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Hi, I received the council rejected my appeal. They believe the YBJ does "conform to the principles of where and how this type of junction should be marked. The sides of the box are approximately at right angles to the flow of traffic and is therefore compliant with the TSRGD 2016".
So they haven't specifically addressed my point about the depot not being a publicly accessible road.
Should I further appeal it to the ETA?
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Thanks all, I have logged my representation using MrChips' draft response. I have also included couple of photos of the entrance into the depot which clearly shows no access available for unauthorised persons. Will provide updates here once I get a response from the council.
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I agree the box markings are unlawful. They don't have to be at the junction of two or more roads, there are other scenarios such as outside a police, ambulance or fire station. But a council depot doesn't count.
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whilst i do not think an adjudicator would find on vague location ( there are only two boxes on Ley st and the are vastly different in design, it is not a bad idea to give a reason for the council to focus and fail to consider the major point
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Agree with those draft reps. Having checked google street view again and spotted red signs at the entrance stating "No access for unauthorised persons", I'd be tempted to embellish a little as follows (have also added an optional additional paragraph).
I make representations against PCN number xxxxxxxxx on the basis that
The contravention did not occur
Schedule 9:7:6 of the TSRGD 2016 defines a box junction as follows:
"For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—
(a)at a junction between two or more roads;
(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;
(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station."
The RTRA 1984 at s192 describes a road as:
F13 road”—
(a)in England and Wales, means any length of highway or of any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes, and
(b)in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;
Whilst Ley Street is a road within the definition, the placement of the box junction markings on Ley Street is at the driveway entry to a Council depot, a place the public do not have access by right. Indeed, there are signs placed at the entrance to the depot explicitly saying "No access for unauthorised persons".
It follows that the box junction markings are laid outwith the parameters set by law and no penalty can be enforced.
Further to this point, I note the PCN issued by the authority states the location of the alleged offence as Ley Street (only). Given Ley Street is a long road which has more than one box junction marked along it, the PCN must be more specific as to which box junction it is referring to by distinguishing which road it is a junction with (it is a strict requirement of the relevant legislation that a PCN must state the grounds on which the authority believe a penalty is payable and leaving the location ambiguous is not consistent with this requirement). The fact the box junction marking is not actually placed at a junction with a second road presumably prevents the authority from doing this at this location.
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s142 of the road traffic act 1984
road”—
(a)in England and Wales, means any length of highway or of any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes, and
(b)in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;
Try something like this
I make representations against PCN number xxxxxxxxx on the basis that
The contravention did not occur
schedule 9:7:6 of the TSRGD 2016 defines a box junction as
For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—
(a)at a junction between two or more roads;
(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;
(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station;
The RTRA 1984 at s192 describes a road as
F13 road”—
(a)in England and Wales, means any length of highway or of any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes, and
(b)in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;
Whilst lay st is a road within the definition the entrance to the Council depot is not as the public do not have access by right
It follows that the box junction markings are laid outwith the parameters set by law and no penalty can be enforced
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Yes understood. Do you think they have any grounds to contest my appeal? What would you do in my case?
According to the legislation:
“box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—
(a)at a junction between two or more roads
So it boils down to whether the turning into the depot can be classified as a separate road. I don’t see any mention in the rules that the road needs to be publicly accessible - I don’t recall any signs to say access is unauthorised for the public. I remember in the past anyone could drive in to the depot to collect recycle bins although that service is now stopped.
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That’s right this is a council depot - Redbridge Transport. You can drive in and there’s a car park immediately on the right hand side before the barriers which I think is for employees but there is no road name, it has Ley Street as it’s address. I’ll argue the YBJ is unlawful. Thanks guys
Don't expect them to roll over like spaniels and cancel the PCN; they want your money ! Most cases like this where you're arguing over the legality of something, end up at the adjudicator, (London Tribunals).
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That’s right this is a council depot - Redbridge Transport. You can drive in and there’s a car park immediately on the right hand side before the barriers which I think is for employees but there is no road name, it has Ley Street as it’s address. I’ll argue the YBJ is unlawful. Thanks guys
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The box is not placed legally, it must be at the junction of 2 or more roads and a road is defined as having unfettered access to the public which the depot does not
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The sign says it is "Ley Street Depot" and seems to be a council depot with the entrance off Ley Street. So if their address is Ley Street, the YBJ is unlawful, not being at the junction of two or more roads. There is no street name on the entrance. The security barrier is obviously set back to avoid queuing vehicles backing-up into Ley Street.
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I can see you were trying very hard not to come to a complete stop. The video resolution isn't quite good enough on my phone to say for sure if you did it didn't but it's definitely worth arguing.
A couple of other possible angles for your representation/appeal.
1) the location on the PCN is not specific enough in my opinion. Ley Street is very long with more than one box junction along it.
2) I've had a look on Google maps and the box junction is marked out at the junction of Ley Street and some sort of depot. It looks quite possible that it's some sort of private premises, in which case it isn't a legitimate box junction and cannot be enforced. Do you (or any other forumites) know what this place is?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3tCPeDtUox3DPHM56
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I received the attached PCN from Redbridge Council for entering and stopping at a yellow junction box. I was thinking to appeal on the basis that:
- The yellow junction box is very long (at least 4 car lengths) so it is difficult as a driver to ascertain if the space immediately after the junction box would be enough for my car to fit in
- My car was only partially on the junction box and didn't exactly block any traffic going into or out of the junction for the few seconds I was in there
- Although not shown in the video evidence provided, you can see that my car wasn't stationary the whole time (blinking brake lights) and I recall I was slightly crawling until the car in front moved and I was fully out of the junction box
Do you think these are strong enough ground for appeal? Any other thoughts or suggestions welcome.
Link to the council video here: https://youtube.com/shorts/07C1RtQuclI (https://youtube.com/shorts/07C1RtQuclI)
PCN attached below:
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