Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Sonu rocks on October 26, 2023, 09:15:49 am

Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: cp8759 on May 27, 2024, 05:10:21 pm
Quote from: Sonu rocks on May 16, 2024, 12:28:01 pm
Please elaborate on ''Well the first step is to wait and see if the council contests the appeal''. The driver's understanding is that
the next step is to appeal to the London Tribunal and guessing this is the last chance the driver has to represent and after this, there will be the judgement given by the London Tribunal. Please correct if the driver's understanding is wrong.
@Sonu rocks this is completely wrong. The next step is to register the appeal, this can be done by simply saying "I rely on my formal representations". A hearing must be requested (never go for a postal decision, you can change the hearing from face to face to telephone later on), and then you wait and see if the council contests the appeal.

If the council doesn't contest the appeal, you win by default and that's the end of that.

If the council does contest the appeal, the burden of proof is on the council to show that a contravention occurred (you might have heard of the "presumption of innocence"), so at that point we can look at the council's evidence and see how many hole we can poke in their case. At that point the driver or their representative can submit evidence in response.

Then there's a hearing

Then the tribunal gives judgment.

I did offer to run the tribunal appeal for you, but if you want to do everything yourself you'll have to do most of the heavy lifting yourself.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: H C Andersen on May 22, 2024, 05:20:31 pm
This is like a recent Barnet PCN.

See the sign at Item 14 in the Part 2 sign table: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made

(these can be seen in the parking places) 

What do they mean?

As regards the regs they mean: Vehicles may be parked partially on the verge or footway during the period indicated

BUT these are area signs i.e. they act as gateway signs and indicate either beginning and direction of the area in which the relief applies or, without arrows, may be used as repeater signs within such an area. 

They ARE NOT to be used in parking places which have their own signs:

Item 3, Part 4 Sign Table: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/4/made

So, what the hell should a driver infer from the sign immediately behind where you were?

There aren't any 'Marked Bays' which delineate areas where the London-wide footway parking prohibition has been disapplied. Instead, there are parking places designated under RTRA and partly placed on the footway. Chalk and cheese.

The idiots at the council don't know the correct traffic signs, but what's new.

So, the parking places are marked improperly. But how could that help you because you were not parked within a parking place?


You were parked on the footway where prima facie you were neither permitted by virtue of a resolution nor because you were within a parking place partly placed on the footway. For good measure you were also on DYL.

Nothing you have put forward so far is anything but mitigation IMO.

But you might as well appeal because the discount isn't on offer.

I suggest 'I rely on my representations' and then wait for their evidence pack which you would scrutinise to see how the council has approved parking on the footway in the parking places.

Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on May 22, 2024, 02:26:45 pm
Please help!
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on May 21, 2024, 04:07:24 pm
Hi all,

Any help would be much appreciated. the 28-day deadline is finishing soon. Please advise if anyone has any. Thanks
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on May 20, 2024, 02:31:08 pm
Hello again,

Please look at the pictures and videos below and let us know if the representation below makes any sense.


https://imgur.com/a/uBdG3X0

https://www.canva.com/design/DAGFwXqdM5k/yo6KmYBHyx2B0emD2xZnjQ/edit?utm_content=DAGFwXqdM5k&utm_campaign=designshare&utm_medium=link2&utm_source=sharebutton

https://www.canva.com/design/DAGFw336UvA/5lkNrTvNBMpJnw6YDh2cEA/edit?utm_content=DAGFw336UvA&utm_campaign=designshare&utm_medium=link2&utm_source=sharebutton


The council has given reason that ''parking on the footway can cause an obstruction to pedestrians and damage to the pathway''. Please see the pictures, the footway doesn't go anywhere and is blocked by the parked cars (with the council's permission) so no pedestrians will pass from there and if they have been given permission to park on the footpath ahead (this is more dangerous than anything as the street ahead is very narrow with parking both sides and no space left for the pedestrian/ residents to walk) then they too are prone to get damaged. So the given reasons are contradictory and do not make any sense.

The Carpark opposite is open 24 hours a day and if the council doesn't allow the parking on footway then please refer to the 1st picture where the road is blocked by the white and a black car, and if, the current setup of the council rules in the area is to be followed then they are not fit for purpose as this could be dangerous for the drivers as well as the pedestrian living in the area. the footway where the contravention happened (allegedly) is more than double the size of the pathway ahead (please see pictures)
That is the reason why the driver parked half on the road and half on the pathway to allow more space for the other cars to pass. Therefore, it is a humble request to look into this matter cautiously and revise the traffic management order in the area as the area needs re-inspection and reconsideration of all the factors mention above.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on May 16, 2024, 12:28:01 pm
Thank you.

Please elaborate on ''Well the first step is to wait and see if the council contests the appeal''. The driver's understanding is that
the next step is to appeal to the London Tribunal and guessing this is the last chance the driver has to represent and after this, there will be the judgement given by the London Tribunal. Please correct if the driver's understanding is wrong.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: cp8759 on May 14, 2024, 11:37:19 pm
Quote from: Sonu rocks on May 06, 2024, 11:57:13 pm
Thanks. Are there any further grounds based on the rejection letter or any other suggestions?
Well the first step is to wait and see if the council contests the appeal, there is no reason to show your hand early. If the council contests the case we can look at the evidence pack and see how many holes we can pick in it.

Many people come on here with this bizarre idea that they need to put in strong appeal, that's nonsense: showing your hand early just gives the council an opportunity to formulate a rebuttal in the evidence pack, you don't want to give them that chance.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on May 06, 2024, 11:57:13 pm
Thanks. Are there any further grounds based on the rejection letter or any other suggestions?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: cp8759 on May 02, 2024, 09:04:00 pm
Quote from: Sonu rocks on May 01, 2024, 11:48:00 am
Thank you!

Please can someone help on what will be the grounds of appeal?
@Sonu rocks I have dropped you a PM (https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=pm) in case you want to be represented. If you'd rather go it alone just register the appeal with "I rely on my formal representations" and make sure to request a hearing.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on May 01, 2024, 11:48:00 am
Thank you!

Please can someone help on what will be the grounds of appeal?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: cp8759 on May 01, 2024, 11:06:36 am
@Sonu rocks I'm guessing the representation was received by the council more than 14 days from when they issued the NTO. As the discount has not been reoffered you might as well appeal, as you have nothing to lose now.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on May 01, 2024, 10:49:41 am
Hello again,

Please find attached the rejection letter from the council.

@cp8759

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: cp8759 on March 31, 2024, 09:56:28 pm
Quote from: Sonu rocks on March 27, 2024, 03:15:49 pm
Hi cp8759,

Yes, did send the appeal.
@Sonu rocks talk of an appeal is premature, I think you must mean you sent a representation to the council? If so please let us know when you get a response and please tag me in your reply on here.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on March 27, 2024, 03:15:49 pm
Hi cp8759,

Yes, did send the appeal.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: cp8759 on March 25, 2024, 11:16:58 pm
@Sonu rocks have you made representations?

Please stop using https://imgbb.com/ as the photos self-destruct, use imgur.com instead
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: H C Andersen on March 15, 2024, 04:47:02 pm
You've seen the TMO (obtained and posted earlier by cp) and I referred to it in my last posts. Parking on the footway in parking places is permitted because this is the manner of standing prescribed in the order. There is no footway parking resolution.

IMO, the tone of your reps is wrong. Your argument is that as the cars immediately ahead were parked on the footway then you assumed this applied to where you were as the contextual factors were the same e.g. narrow road etc. However, it appears your assumption was incorrect. However, you would ask the authority to exercise discretion on this occasion.*

It has also been brought to your attention that there is a regulatory flaw in the PCN i.e. ********* which you believe constitutes what is referred to in the NTO grounds as a procedural impropriety.


*- sometimes I suggest that owners add 'and as I have an unblemished parking record in the borough' ....but as you have another current footway parking thread I'm inclined to think that you might have had previous run-ins with the authority. Only you know.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Hippocrates on March 15, 2024, 02:31:59 pm
In light of this procedural impropriety and the other representations, please cancel the PCN.

Also, I request any relevant Traffic Management Order.



Sorry can't say anymore at present.  Wait for others to chip in.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on March 15, 2024, 02:18:21 pm
Please let me know if the below draft is ok to be sent:

Dear Sirs,

I would like to appeal the penalty charge served upon me.

The council has allowed parking on both sides of the road just a few meters ahead of where the car was parked. To any layman it would appear or make sense to follow the line and length of the car parked ahead as the road is as narrow and there is an underground car parking opposite the DYLs, the space is very narrow and the chances of hitting the parked car are high if not parked on the pathway.

A pathway is where a pedestrian can walk safely and if the safety has been compromised by leaving a very narrow space where the houses are, and the pedestrian footfall is high there then it doesn't make sense to allow PCN where there is a lot of space on the footpath just behind the marked spaces where there is a car park just opposite where a car coming from the opposite direction cannot turn.
So technically either the restriction of DYLs should be completely removed (had there been no DYLs restrictions sign, the driver wouldn’t have parked the car and the Penalty wouldn’t have arisen) or the TMO should allow the parking on the curb throughout the road considering there is an underground car park opposite to the DYLs where there are high chances of an accident whilst the car coming from the car park is manoeuvring.
In addition, the wording of the PCN in terms of the 28 days period is wrong since it does not comply with Schedule 2 para.2 @https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2 (d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred.

In light of this procedural impropriety please cancel the PCN.
Also, I would like to request a Traffic Management Order for the road In case of an unsuccessful appeal.

Yours sincerely,
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Hippocrates on March 15, 2024, 01:39:55 pm
Everything should be included.  Show us a draft first please.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on March 15, 2024, 01:03:37 pm
Thank you. Should I just appeal on the basis of sch 2 para 2 or should I also include the previous arguments the driver had mentioned in the representation?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Hippocrates on March 15, 2024, 12:29:29 pm
Try this even though it has had success and failure. At least it will give them something to think about:



The wording of the PCN in terms of the 28 days period is wrong since it does not comply with Schedule 2 para. 2 @  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2

(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,

In light of this procedural impropriety please cancel the PCN.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on March 15, 2024, 12:09:49 pm
Thank you. So do I appeal or just request for the discount?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: H C Andersen on March 15, 2024, 11:15:13 am
IMO, I don't think you have a case.

1. The NTO appears to comply with regulatory requirements;
2. The TMO deals with the parking places in Upton as it is required i.e. it specifies that the manner of standing for these parking places alone is '2 wheels on the footway'; (OK, they've not used the correct traffic sign but instead used 2, one to indicate the parking place and another to indicate 'parking in marked bays'. Councils just can't get this right, but as you weren't in a marked bay anyway, IMO it's academic);
3. You were parked with 2 wheels on the footway where the London-wide prohibition applies;
4. None of the legal exemptions applies, see 15(3) here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1974/24/section/15
5. The DYL and the wrong traffic sign have nothing whatsoever to do with the alleged contravention. 

Your optimum outcomes are:
They re-offer the discount, and/or
They mess up their response - another procedural hurdle for them to negotiate.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on March 15, 2024, 09:07:38 am
Please share your thoughts if I have any case here?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on March 14, 2024, 10:10:42 am
Thank you. Please see below the rest of the pages

https://ibb.co/6t7L5YC
https://ibb.co/fn86sfW
https://ibb.co/5vWgrNB
https://ibb.co/F8RQwFX
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: taffer87 on March 13, 2024, 03:37:53 pm
Quote from: Sonu rocks on March 11, 2024, 05:24:51 pm
Hello,

Have received NTO.

Please see below:

https://ibb.co/xXLNmJ4

Thank you!

plz upload all pages/sides of all documents
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: taffer87 on March 13, 2024, 03:31:15 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on December 11, 2023, 03:29:53 pm
The London Borough of Hounslow (Hounslow Town Centre South) (Parking Places) Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1Ghb8fcSVz-UgmNmInlZRoHrB_mmUD28N), see page 49.

"PART II - DESIGNATION OF PARKING PLACES
4. Designation of parking places
(1) The areas of highway as described in column 2 of Schedules 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 are designated as parking places.
(2) The limits of each parking place and the limits of each parking space, if marked within a parking place, shall be indicated on the highway by traffic signs of any size, colour and type prescribed or authorised under Section 64 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.
5. Manner of standing in a parking place
(1) Every vehicle left in a parking place shall stand so that every part of the vehicle is wholly within the limits of any parking space if marked, or within the limits of any parking place.
(2) Every vehicle left in a parking place in relation to which special provisions as to the manner of standing of a vehicle in that parking place is specified in column 3 of Schedules 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 shall stand so as to be in accordance with those provisions."
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: John U.K. on March 13, 2024, 03:09:31 pm
Bumping thia for Sonurocks.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on March 11, 2024, 05:24:51 pm
Hello,

Have received NTO.

Please see below:

https://ibb.co/xXLNmJ4

Thank you!
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: cp8759 on December 11, 2023, 03:29:53 pm
The London Borough of Hounslow (Hounslow Town Centre South) (Parking Places) Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1Ghb8fcSVz-UgmNmInlZRoHrB_mmUD28N), see page 49.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: cp8759 on November 15, 2023, 10:13:09 pm
Quote from: Sonu rocks on November 14, 2023, 04:39:40 pm
So, just to confirm that the next step is to wait for the NTO and then submit the formal representation with 14 days?
Yes.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on November 14, 2023, 04:39:40 pm
Thank you!

So, just to confirm that the next step is to wait for the NTO and then submit the formal representation with 14 days?

Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: cp8759 on November 13, 2023, 10:43:23 pm
I would definitely wait for the notice to owner, as long as you submit formal representations within 14 days of the date of issue, they will extend the discount anyway, so there's little risk in carrying on.

And long before you get the notice to owner, we should have the footway parking resolution.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on November 10, 2023, 12:14:17 pm
Thank you all!

Any more suggestions would be appricated specially from cp8759.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: H C Andersen on November 09, 2023, 03:41:02 pm
OP, are you the registered keeper and are your DVLA details current?

I would respond, thank them for their prompt reply and their reoffer of the discount. However, you are now in a dilemma because the council did not provide a copy of the council resolution under which footway parking in *** is permitted despite this being requested in your challenge. Stress that it is important that you receive this promptly because if, as is possible, this disapplies the London-wide footway ban to the whole street then this would form the basis of your formal representations and would inform any decision whether to pay the discount at this stage.

Wait for others.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on November 09, 2023, 11:00:42 am
Sure, thank you.

But it is still hard to digest the reasons given by the council about the footpath might get damaged and the blind person or pram might get difficulties to pass. This is more worse further down the road and that's exactly what estounds me  ::) 
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Incandescent on November 08, 2023, 05:13:10 pm
Discount has been re-offered.  This may be your best option now, but see what CP8759 thinks as he wrote your reps.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on November 08, 2023, 05:02:04 pm
Received a very late (11:40 pm) reply from the council. Please find the screenshot below

https://ibb.co/Mc8vD9b

https://ibb.co/vXN6yK2
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on November 07, 2023, 11:28:43 am
Much appriciated!

Will post the outcome.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: cp8759 on November 06, 2023, 12:03:17 am
I'm sorry but none of that draft makes any sense to me, for the reasons that have been explained all references to the underground car park and the yellow lines are irrelevant.

I'd go with something much simpler:

Dear London Borough of Hounslow,

In the first instance I would ask you to exercise your discretion to cancel the penalty charge, considering that footway parking is allowed on much of the road.

If you are not willing to cancel the penalty, I would ask that you at least reoffer the discount. I also request a copy of the resolution passed under section 15(4) of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974 in respect of this road.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on November 05, 2023, 11:06:46 pm
Dear Sirs,

I would like to appeal the penalty charge served upon me.

The council has allowed parking on both sides of the road just a few meters ahead of where the car was parked. To any layman, it would appear or make sense to follow the line and length of the car parked ahead as the road is as narrow and there is an underground car parking opposite the DYLs, the space is very narrow and the chances of hitting the parked car are high if not parked on the pathway.

 A pathway is where a pedestrian can walk safely and if the safety has been compromised by leaving a very narrow space where the houses are, and the pedestrian footfall is high then it doesn't make sense to allow PCN where there is a lot of space on the footpath just behind the marked spaces where there is a car park just opposite where a car coming from the opposite direction cannot turn.

So technically either the restriction of DYLs should be completely removed (had there been no DYLs restrictions sign, the driver wouldn’t have parked the car and the Penalty wouldn’t have arisen) or the TMO should allow the parking on the curb throughout the road considering there is an underground car park opposite to the DYLs where there are high chances of an accident whilst the car coming from the car park is manoeuvring.
Also, I would like to request for a Traffic Management Order for the road In case of an unsuccessful appeal.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: cp8759 on November 04, 2023, 07:18:23 pm
Quote from: Sonu rocks on November 03, 2023, 11:08:11 am
What will be the grounds even if the the order has been produced.
If the order disapplies the footway parking ban from the entire road, which is the most common scenario, then the ground would be that the contravention did not occur. See for instance the decision in Jade Honeywood v London Borough of Redbridge (2230195409, 22 May 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1rP7tyDbOD1K2dL2S7qdElyl19dVR-Dg8) and Robert Dempsey v London Borough of Hounslow (2230143824, 30 March 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1oG9X7i-Q4QeVW859HxMeJqKYW-hH46lC), both cases of mine.

The double yellow lines and the upright sign are utterly irrelevant to the allegation of footway parking, so there's no point in mentioning them.

I suggest you write a draft representation, post it on here for comment and we'll tidy it up for you.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: slapdash on November 03, 2023, 06:19:42 pm
You could attempt to argue that the signage was confusing. That timeplate shouldn't be there.

If you had been parked on the road that might have a chance (but in that case you'd have got a pcn for parking on the double yellow).

You also need to explain why you parked on the pavement (which is what the PCN is for). The signs, very close to where you parked were explicit that it was in marked bays.

Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on November 03, 2023, 01:35:00 pm
 
Quote from: mickR on November 03, 2023, 11:17:15 am
it has alread been explained to you that DYLs mean no parking at any time so you should not have been on them. its also been explained that being opposite the underground is totally irrelevant apart from the fact that may be exactly why the DYLs have been put there. to stop people doing exactly what you did.

Thank you Mick. But the argument would be that there were restriction hours signage and the council has to remove those signs permanently. So that it is clear and the drivers won't think of parking there at all.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: mickR on November 03, 2023, 11:17:15 am
it has alread been explained to you that DYLs mean no parking at any time so you should not have been on them. its also been explained that being opposite the underground is totally irrelevant apart from the fact that may be exactly why the DYLs have been put there. to stop people doing exactly what you did.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on November 03, 2023, 11:08:11 am
Thank you all!

What will be the grounds even if the the order has been produced.

Can the driver also request the council for the order and appeal at the same time to say that there is an underground car parking opposite to the DYLs, the space is very narrow and the chances of hitting the parked car if not parked on the pathway. Also, the pathway where the lines are drawn is very smaller compare to the pathway where the allegedly contravention happened.

Pathway is where a pedestrain can walk safely and if the safety has been compromised by leaving very narrow space where the houses are and the pedestrain footfall is high there then it doesn't make sense to allow PCN where there is a lot of space on the footpath just behind the marked spaces where there is a car park just opposite where a car coming from the opposite direction cannot turn. So technically either the restriction of DYLs should be removed or they should allow the parking on the curb. As this is a common sense for any driver and there are a lot of drivers who parks their car in the same way as the driver has parked.

Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: slapdash on November 03, 2023, 08:58:03 am
Quote from: Sonu rocks on November 02, 2023, 11:24:10 pm

And please could this be elaborate as to how we are sure that 'order or resolution' passed by the council will disapplies the provisions of the 1974 Act in ** Road?

If footway parking is allowed to some extent - which it must be because of the signs - there has to be resolution disallowing the act.

When cp8789 has obtained it that will define the extent of allowable footway parking.

Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: mickR on November 02, 2023, 11:50:43 pm
TMO = Traffic Management  Order
HCA = H C Anderson one of the members trying to help you  ::)
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on November 02, 2023, 11:24:10 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on October 29, 2023, 07:42:16 pm
Quote from: Sonu rocks on October 26, 2023, 05:56:53 pm
What is TRO and how/where can it be found?
I've requested the footway parking resolution, as HCA says the TMO is largely irrelevant in footway parking cases. In the meantime you should make a plea for discretion on 9 November to buy as much time as possible. It could take till the end of November for me to get a response from the council. Is there any meaningful mitigation you could put forwards?

Sorry my acronyms are not upto the mark.
What is the full form of TMO and HCA please?

And please could this be elaborate as to how we are sure that 'order or resolution' passed by the council will disapplies the provisions of the 1974 Act in ** Road?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: cp8759 on October 31, 2023, 11:09:32 pm
Quote from: Sonu rocks on October 31, 2023, 09:25:06 am
What is the full form of IMO please?
It stands for In My Opinion

Quote from: Sonu rocks on October 31, 2023, 09:25:06 am
What could be meaningful mitigation that council will consider please?
Your cat got run over, your nan died, you've just lost your job, you've been severly ill or have been diagnosed with a terminal illness, you're a victim of domestic violence, you've recently been a victim of crime, you're recently had an accident / sustained a personal injury, your nephew was recently murdered, the list is endless.

Obviously those are hypothetical examples, you can't make something up (lying in representations is a criminal offence), so you can only put forward mitigation that is true and actually applies to you. If you don't have any mitigation then you don't have it so you'll have to do without.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on October 31, 2023, 09:25:06 am
Thank you all.

What is the full form of IMO please?

What could be meaningful mitigation that council will consider please?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on October 30, 2023, 01:06:27 pm
Sorry but I am completely lost here. Please help me as to what should be written to the Council.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: cp8759 on October 29, 2023, 07:42:16 pm
Quote from: Sonu rocks on October 26, 2023, 05:56:53 pm
What is TRO and how/where can it be found?
I've requested the footway parking resolution, as HCA says the TMO is largely irrelevant in footway parking cases. In the meantime you should make a plea for discretion on 9 November to buy as much time as possible. It could take till the end of November for me to get a response from the council. Is there any meaningful mitigation you could put forwards?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: H C Andersen on October 29, 2023, 10:03:57 am
With respect and I understand where the comment came from but IMO the TRO(TMO in London) is not applicable.

The footway parking prohibition may be disapplied by an 'Act, order or resolution'. A TMO would create waiting restrictions e.g. DYL etc. or parking places. 'Marked bays' in the context of the footway parking signs are not parking places. If a council wants to allow parking on the footway then it may create parking places wholly or partly on the footway(for which there are specific traffic signs) or pass a resolution to permit parking on the footway, again wholly or partly. But a TMO should not permit parking on the footway where there isn't a parking restriction and obviously cannot for a waiting restriction because this in itself prohibits waiting whether on the footway or not, and I don't think that this is within its scope under RTRA.

So, IMO you should be requesting the 'order or resolution' passed by the council which disapplies the provisions of the 1974 Act in ** Road.



Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on October 26, 2023, 05:56:53 pm
What is TRO and how/where can it be found?

What else could be the grounds of appeal?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: mickR on October 26, 2023, 10:40:14 am
in your PPP thread you mentioned not wanting to hinder access to the underground  car park opposite. unfortunately that argument is an irrelevance. that's certainly why the DYLs have been installed.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: DancingDad on October 26, 2023, 10:04:04 am
Shame that the CEO didn't go for the DYL restriction, that would be easier to argue given the left over timed restriction sign.

As it is, that the footway parking sign specifies in marked bays and you weren't in one, lots more difficult.

As John says, there will/should be a resolution that disallows the footway parking ban (general across London) and specifies where you can park on footway.
Given the sign, I suspect that it will specify in marked bays but where those bays should be and whether the council can actually come up with it is another question.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: John U.K. on October 26, 2023, 09:48:11 am
https://maps.app.goo.gl/bdiHXLccxqa1rgtg9

(You copied across a broken link from PPP.)

I could find no Double Yellow lines, only single, governed by this sign
https://maps.app.goo.gl/V8wtLeNrDLSoZpib9
From your photo
(https://i.ibb.co/tZ7qk7W/20231023-220957.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tZ7qk7W)
it would appear that since GSV the SYL has ben turned ibto DYL but no one has removed the sign.
DYL operate 24/7

Pavement marked bays are governed by this sign
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xfxAoBqSB8R9r9HD6

Your PCN
(https://i.ibb.co/tzL54qL/20231025-153535.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NrTzs9T)
is for footpath parking, which this CEO photo shows
(https://i.ibb.co/mHwCR28/1.png) (https://imgbb.com/)

In it, you are parked on the yellow line before the footpath permitted parking begins at the signpost.

You will need the TRO for Upton Road disallowing the ban on footway parking. It may be that they have disallowed the ban for the whole road, rather than the marked stretch, in which case you are in the clear.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on October 26, 2023, 09:16:50 am
It is a narrow street please click on the below.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4672093,-0....i8192?entry=ttu


The car was parked not very far from the sign where it says 'Parked in the marked bays' which means half on the curb and half on the road. This is due to lack of space on a narrow street.

The car was parked after the opertional hours of double yellow.

Also, If the car was parked normally then it could have obstruct the vehicle coming from oppsite underground parking.

Do I have any other grounds of appeal?
Title: Hounslow Council PCN for parking half on the curb and half on the road
Post by: Sonu rocks on October 26, 2023, 09:15:49 am
Hi,

Was given pcn for parking half on the curb and half on the road. But the sign ahead said so (please see photos of the street).

https://ibb.co/FK4N6J5
https://ibb.co/tZ7qk7W
https://ibb.co/zhwy8jy
https://ibb.co/6y9xGry
https://ibb.co/qdDkgwY
https://ibb.co/SmYNnLh
https://ibb.co/4PCYQ2Q
https://ibb.co/NrTzs9T

Images taken by the warden

https://ibb.co/khfgGw1
https://ibb.co/gyC0QQ2
https://ibb.co/cL500d1
https://ibb.co/G5MWJcy