Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Ams on October 25, 2023, 10:39:12 pm

Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: Nosy Parker on January 10, 2024, 06:39:16 pm
PCN cancelled!
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: Nosy Parker on December 26, 2023, 10:53:11 am
AMS and H C Andersen, please see the direct messages I've sent you.

Happy New Year!
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: Ams on December 25, 2023, 02:30:44 pm
Dear Forum members

To bring transparency and clarity, listed below all events in the chronological order related to this APCOA PCN. All relevant letters, in chronological order, can be found within one zip file attached.

The passenger – Patient, the elderly Lady
Registered keeper – data from DVLA record

07-Sept-23 : PCN affixed on the windscreen of the vehicle with an option to pay £30 (reduced charge) or dispute by making an appeal within 28 days i.e. 05-Oct-23(?). Full charge is £60.
21-Sept-23 : The Patient (elderly lady), passenger in the vehicle submitted the representation (attached separately again)
03-Oct-23 : Representation rejected, communication sent to the Representor (The Patient) with an option to pay reduced charge of £30 in 14 days i.e. 17-Oct-23 (?) or full charge of £60 after 14 days OR appeal to POPLA within 28 days i.e. 31-Oct-23 (?). Full charge payable if appealed to POPLA. If do nothing, recover monies via debt recovery and proceed with Court action
03-Nov-23 : Notice to Keeper (NTK) of the vehicle issued to RK (registered keeper) in hard copy with an option to dispute within 28 days i.e. 30-Nov-23 (?) or pay £60.
23-Nov-23 : RK submitted disputed charge via online
23-Nov-23 : APCOA confirmed receipt of appeal with response within 35days i.e. 27-Dec-23 (?)
14-Dec-23 : Debt Recovery Plus notice issued in the name of the Patient for £130 (including an unexplained additional charge of £70) with an option to pay in full or in 4 installments by 28-Dec-23 OR go legal to court.
25-Dec-23 : No correspondence received from APCOA yet by RK against the appeal submitted on 23-Nov-23 by RK

Happy to add details where required.

Many thanks.
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: H C Andersen on December 24, 2023, 12:39:35 pm

My issue in part is what's 'it' and why the OP's mother who doesn't feature in the process after a NTK has been issued.
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: slapdash on December 24, 2023, 11:02:21 am
They appear to have passed it onto debt collectors before the 35 days they give themselves to respond is up.

I doubt it makes any difference though it does suggest the £70 they appear to have added is premature.
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: H C Andersen on December 24, 2023, 10:16:12 am
IMO, this thread is more complex than it might appear on the surface.

OP, going back to the start, an appeal was submitted against a NTD served on the vehicle and subsequently rejected. The rejection states that unless payment is made or an appeal lodged with POPLA, APCOA reserve the right to implement debt recovery procedures.

Subsequently a Notice to Keeper was issued under PoFA. A NTK is not 'debt recovery'.

This is procedural nonsense.

PoFA can only be engaged if the creditor does NOT know the driver's details.
If the initial 'appeal' against the NTD gave the driver's details (whether by accident or design) then there was no power to issue a NTK. And if the appeal didn't reveal the driver, then APCOA could only pursue the charge from the keeper after issuing a NTK...but the 'debt management letter is address to the OP's mother!!

OP, can we please see the original appeal sent in Sept. (you say this was posted by your mother who was the passenger and patient. Subsequently, you posted that the NTK was addressed to you)

And forget about the contravention, we need to sort out who's who and what procedures have and have not been followed.

And pl stop referring to 'we' and 'our', notices and letters are addressed to individuals so 'the passenger', 'the driver', the 'keeper' pl.
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: Ams on December 22, 2023, 07:53:04 pm
Let us know when they reply (and what with). Keep an eye on your spam emails, and if they don't reply in the time allowed, chase them up.

Attached the DEBT management letter we received in the name of the passenger and not the driver.

APCOA didn't issue the new POPLA code as requested by us.

What would be our next course of action ?

Many thanks for your help in advance.
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: Ams on December 16, 2023, 10:22:47 am
Let us know when they reply (and what with). Keep an eye on your spam emails, and if they don't reply in the time allowed, chase them up.

We are yet to receive response from the APCOA, it's been 3 weeks since 23-Nov and still counting.
We regularly checking emails (incl SPAM) and posts and will keep doing so.

The latest status available online (https://pcnpayments.apcoa.co.uk/pcnonline/step2.php), as below :

"This Charge Notice has now been passed to an Enforcement Agent and therefore payment cannot be accepted on this website. Payment must be made directly to the Enforcement Agent and you must refer to any correspondance you have received from them on how payment can be made."


Though the system generated response on 23-Nov upon submission of Appeal :

Dear xxxxx,
Thank you for submitting your challenge/appeal to PCN/ECN reference: NP80008661. A copy of your submission is attached for your records.

Your case will be placed on hold and will not progress in accordance with our procedure.

If you have challenged your notice within 14 days from the date of the notice, the case will not increase in cost whilst it is on hold.

PLEASE DO NOT MAKE PAYMENT WHILST YOUR CASE IS UNDER REVIEW.
Your appeal will be considered and a response sent to you via email within 35 days from submission date. Duplicate submission of emails or appeals may result in delay in responding to your appeal.


Yours sincerely"


Regards
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: DWMB2 on November 23, 2023, 10:25:55 pm
Let us know when they reply (and what with). Keep an eye on your spam emails, and if they don't reply in the time allowed, chase them up.
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: Ams on November 23, 2023, 07:15:09 pm
If the driver hasn't been identified then APCOA would seem to have unwittingly given you as the keeper a potential lifeline, as they would seem not to have complied with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (there's a link in my signature at the bottom of each page), and are therefore unable to recover the charge from you as the keeper.

You could therefore appeal as the keeper, along the lines of the below:

Dear Sirs,

I have received your Parking Charge Notice (Ref: ______) for vehicle registration mark _______, in which you allege that the driver has incurred a parking charge. I note from your correspondence that you are not seeking to hold me liable as the registered keeper, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. There is no obligation for me to name the driver and I will not be doing so. I am therefore unable to help you further with this matter, and look forward to your confirmation that the charge has been cancelled. If you choose to decline this appeal, you must issue a POPLA code.

Yours,


Posted online.

Many thanks for your help and support thus far.
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: Ams on November 23, 2023, 07:57:47 am
If the driver hasn't been identified then APCOA would seem to have unwittingly given you as the keeper a potential lifeline, as they would seem not to have complied with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (there's a link in my signature at the bottom of each page), and are therefore unable to recover the charge from you as the keeper.

You could therefore appeal as the keeper, along the lines of the below:

Dear Sirs,

I have received your Parking Charge Notice (Ref: ______) for vehicle registration mark _______, in which you allege that the driver has incurred a parking charge. I note from your correspondence that you are not seeking to hold me liable as the registered keeper, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. There is no obligation for me to name the driver and I will not be doing so. I am therefore unable to help you further with this matter, and look forward to your confirmation that the charge has been cancelled. If you choose to decline this appeal, you must issue a POPLA code.

Yours,

Many thanks Sir, highly appreciated your draft. I will send this appeal by this evening.


I tried to list below all events in the chronological order related to this PCN. And have collated all documents / letters within one zip file attached.

07-Sept : PCN affixed on the windscreen of the vehicle with an option to pay £30 (reduced charge) or dispute by making an appeal within 28 days
21-Sept : Representation made by the patient in the vehicle (my mother in this case)
03-Oct : Rejection letter for the representation sent to the Representor (my mother in this case) highlighting appeal can be made to POPLA within 28 days
31-Oct : Appeal to POPLA date expired
03-Nov : Notice to the registered keeper of the vehicle issued (in my name) with an option to dispute within 28 days or pay £60.
01-Dec (future) : Date of expiry to dispute the PCN


Many thanks.
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: DWMB2 on November 22, 2023, 11:38:26 am
If the driver hasn't been identified then APCOA would seem to have unwittingly given you as the keeper a potential lifeline, as they would seem not to have complied with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (there's a link in my signature at the bottom of each page), and are therefore unable to recover the charge from you as the keeper.

You could therefore appeal as the keeper, along the lines of the below:

Dear Sirs,

I have received your Parking Charge Notice (Ref: ______) for vehicle registration mark _______, in which you allege that the driver has incurred a parking charge. I note from your correspondence that you are not seeking to hold me liable as the registered keeper, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. There is no obligation for me to name the driver and I will not be doing so. I am therefore unable to help you further with this matter, and look forward to your confirmation that the charge has been cancelled. If you choose to decline this appeal, you must issue a POPLA code.

Yours,
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: Ams on November 22, 2023, 06:58:08 am
Right - understood.

I've removed your first attachment (the Notice to Keeper) as it contains your full name and address. You may wish to redact then re-upload.

To be clear, the driver has not been identified to APCOA at any point?


Uploaded "Notice to the Keeper".
No - the driver was not identified earlier. I presume, APCOA reached out to DVLA to identify the keeper of the vehicle to send the notice.

Regards
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: DWMB2 on November 21, 2023, 11:36:20 pm
Right - understood.

I've removed your first attachment (the Notice to Keeper) as it contains your full name and address. You may wish to redact then re-upload.

To be clear, the driver has not been identified to APCOA at any point?
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: Ams on November 21, 2023, 11:24:58 pm
No appeal to POPLA sent. The original representation against the PCN was made in the patient name who was the passenger in the vehicle and not the owner of the vehicle. This representation was rejected by APCOA.

Now APCOA sent the "Notice to the Keeper" of the vehicle with two options a) Pay the charge, b) appeal to dispute the PCN.

Hope this is clear.
 
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: DWMB2 on November 21, 2023, 11:11:45 pm
2. In PCN, there is no picture attached showing the display of signage and the T&C confirming the contravention. Is there any legal mandate around this point when issuing any PCN ?
No - The signage must be 'there to be seen' and capable of creating a contract. If it is not, you can challenge this, but there's no requirement for them to show you the signage on the PCN.

5. There is no evidence where the parked vehicle caused any obstruction to any emergency vehicle or caused a risk to other vehicle passenger or pedestrian or so on
This isn't relevant. They aren't alleging that an obstruction was caused (although one could make an argument that the vehicle was obstructing access to any car parked in the adjacent disabled bay).

The arguments haven't changed since your last post - the lack of signage seems like your strongest argument. Did you appeal to POPLA? If not, it'll be a case now of waiting to see if they decide to take the matter to court.
Title: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: Ams on November 21, 2023, 10:55:57 pm
Dear members

APCOA issued PCN for alleged contravention of parking on Yellow or Hatched lines next to the disabled parking bay.
We displayed Disabled badge on the windscreen of the vehicle (evident in the original PCN attached).
The vehicle was parked at the Northwick Park hospital site (Private Land).
Link to google map :
https://maps.app.goo.gl/igMt4Y9oVxHyLbHz7
51.574576, -0.319030
Harrow

We didn’t observe any Parking T&C and / or other sign displayed around the area where the vehicle was parked.
We tried to recreate the scene in a video where the event happened.
https://youtu.be/VE0qkdOwVI8
https://youtu.be/GanFrBsxq6U

The vehicle was used to transport the patient who was due to attend the clinical appointment at 2pm at the same hospital clinic. However, there was an emergency with the patient where she was rushed to the toilet to avoid soiling her clothes. She carries a "No Waiting Card" with her and also suffers from bowel incontinence due to chronic constipation.
Further, there was ongoing construction work in NPH car park resulting poor availability of the parking in the car parking area. Also, due to this, there was significant delay in finding the parking space to park the car.

The APCOA rejected our original representation and have sent the “Notice to the Keeper” either to pay the penalty charge or make an appeal.
We approached to PALS and they denied.
Response from PALs :
"Further to your email below I have since forwarded on the APCOA Senior Area Manager to look at.  Unfortunately, PALS do not influence and  overturn APCOA’s Appeals department decision.
The Senior Area Manager will respond directly to you.

Kind regards,
Brenda Bennett"


We would like to seek advice from this forum around specific points to consider when drafting the representation.

Attached are specific documents related with this PCN.

Few points are worth noting :
1. The vehicle was parked outside the car park 3. No parking sign found displayed where the vehicle was parked and on route accessing the hospital
2. In PCN, there is no picture attached showing the display of signage and the T&C confirming the contravention. Is there any legal mandate around this point when issuing any PCN ?
3. The parking T&Cs were displayed within the Car Park 3 (CP3) area, however the contravention occurred outside the CP3 zone
4. Other attached pictures, also evidences non-display of signage near the parked car area
5. There is no evidence where the parked vehicle caused any obstruction to any emergency vehicle or caused a risk to other vehicle passenger or pedestrian or so on


Kindest regards
Ams

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking n Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital, PCN Rejected
Post by: Ams on November 04, 2023, 08:39:32 am
Response from PALs

"Further to your email below I have since forwarded on the APCOA Senior Area Manager to look at.  Unfortunately, PALS do not influence and  overturn APCOA’s Appeals department decision.
The Senior Area Manager will respond directly to you.

Kind regards,
Brenda Bennett"
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking n Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital, PCN Rejected
Post by: Ams on October 29, 2023, 10:15:50 pm
Many thanks - uploaded two videos on YT, link below.

https://youtu.be/VE0qkdOwVI8

https://youtu.be/GanFrBsxq6U


Link to google map :
https://maps.app.goo.gl/igMt4Y9oVxHyLbHz7

51.574576, -0.319030
Harrow

I hear and understood your points. Few clarification points :
 - Wouldn't this mandatory for parking attendant to upload relevant T&C's in the PCN, else the PCN is invalidated ?
 - Will parking on hatched markings contravenes the parking rules on private lands (contrary to public road) and the guidelines laid outs in British Parking Association (BPA) code of practice? 
 - what key differences in laws between public road and private land around parking on hatched lines and /or displaying the signage clearly + t&cs ?

Hope I am making sense.
APologies - I am new to this and may be my questions seems stupid.

Regards
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking n Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital, PCN Rejected
Post by: DWMB2 on October 29, 2023, 07:54:26 pm
We tried to recreate the scene in a video (cant attached due to 25MB size)
You'd need to use a third party site such as YouTube.

Can you share a Google Street View link of that space?

From what you've shared so far the signage doesn't look great - I can see how a driver would miss the only nearby sign, which appears to be an 'entrance' sign, and/or think it applies to the spaces beyond the zebra crossing. If PALS won't help, you can of course appeal to POPLA, although I wouldn't expect them to find in your favour. It would then essentially be a case of toughing it out and seeing if they took the matter to court, and then trying to defend it there.

It's not a great bit of parking (this isn't a criticism, I understand the circumstances), and one could argue that even without the signs, a driver knows that they should not park on hatched lines - however, one could also argue that without clear signage, they wouldn't know that by doing so they were entering into a contract to pay £100.
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking n Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital, PCN Rejected
Post by: Ams on October 28, 2023, 01:39:37 pm
Dear member

We tried to recreate the scene in a video (cant attached due to 25MB size) of the event happened after parking the car on 07-Sept and rushing mother to attend the emergency.

Few points worth noting :
1. The vehicle was parked outside the car park 3. No parking sign found displayed where the vehicle was parked and on route accessing the hospital
2. In PCN, there is no picture attached showing the display of signage and the T&C confirming the contravention. Isn't this Mandatory when issuing PCN ?
3. The parking T&Cs were displayed within the car park 3 area, however the contravention occurred outside the CP3 zone
4. From other attached pictures, also evidences non-display of signage near the parked car area
5. There is no evidence where the parked vehicle caused any obstruction to any emergency vehicle or caused a risk to other vehicle passenger or pedestrian or so on

We will try to contact PALS again on Monday to seek their interventions in this matter.

To be honest, we feel APCOA is trying to milk vehicle owners to generate extra cash at the expense of vehicle owner.

Your help would be highly appreciated.
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking n Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital, PCN Rejected
Post by: DWMB2 on October 27, 2023, 06:58:48 pm
Many thanks.
"The vehicle was parked entirely on the hatched lines, outside of the disabled bay".
Not ideal - by doing this access to the (presumably occupied) disabled bay next to this area was reduced, which doesn't help your case.

PALS are concerned with any negligence in clinical activities. Parking related discussions falls outside PALS remit.
They have a far broader remit than just clinical negligence. Over on PePiPoo we've seen cases where PALS have intervened to help patients who have had issues with unfair parking enforcement, but it's your money on the line, not mine, so you're free to disregard the suggestion.

They might be less likely to intervene in this case as it does seem like the T&Cs were breached. Although a suitably emotive story about the circumstances as you described in your opening post may just elicit some sympathy. It costs £0 to try.

Do you have any photos showing where the nearest sign was (and a close up of the terms and conditions)? Any photo of signage at the entrance?
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking n Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital, PCN Rejected
Post by: Ams on October 27, 2023, 06:32:37 pm
Many thanks.
"The vehicle was parked entirely on the hatched lines, outside of the disabled bay".
Uploading pictures taken by the APCOA here.

PALS are concerned with any negligence in clinical activities. Parking related discussions falls outside PALS remit.
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking n Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital, PCN Rejected
Post by: DWMB2 on October 26, 2023, 09:41:23 pm
APCOA issued PCN for alleged contravention of parking on yellow or hatched lines next to disabled parking bay.
Can you explain what you mean by this (ideally show us any photos APCOA took)? Do you mean that the car was in the bay, but the wheels were overhanging into the hatched lines, or was the vehicle parked entirely on the hatched lines, outside of the disabled bay? If the former, I'd suggest you have a much stronger case than if the latter is true.

At any rate, a good first step would be to speak to the Patient Advice and Liaison Service (PALS) at the hospital in question, explaining the situation, to see if they can intervene.
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking n Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital, PCN Rejected
Post by: Ams on October 26, 2023, 08:05:50 am
Posted.

Many Thanks.
Title: Re: APCOA,Parking n Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital, PCN Rejected
Post by: Incandescent on October 25, 2023, 11:08:30 pm
This is a private ticket, being a "Parking Charge Notice", not a "Penalty Charge Notice" issue by councils and Transport for London.
You therefore need to re-post it in the private tickets forum: -
https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/
Experts there will tell you whether you're in with a chance or not.
Title: APCOA,Parking on Yellow or Hatched lines, Northwick Park Hospital
Post by: Ams on October 25, 2023, 10:39:12 pm
Dear members

APCOA issued PCN for alleged contravention of parking on yellow or hatched lines next to disabled parking bay. Disabled badge was displayed on the windscreen.
The vehicle was parked at the NorthWick Park hospital site.
No display of parking T&C and other sign by the area where vehicle was parked.
The patient in the car was due to attend appointment at 2pm and there was an emergency with the patient where she was rushed to the toilet to avoid soiling the cloth. She carrying "No Waiting Card" with her and suffers from bowel incontinence due to chronic constipation.

The APCOA rejected our representation and we would like to seek advice on the possibility to challenge this appeal further.

Attached are specific documents related with this PCN.

Regards
Ams