Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: julz94 on October 25, 2023, 07:57:18 pm

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: julz94 on September 29, 2024, 09:31:47 pm

Update, i logged in recently to check the PCN online.
No outstanding charge for PCN anymore. Looks like it’s been cancelled.
Persistence pays off. They knew they would not stand a chance at tribunal.

Hence why they never done their homework first time around nearly 2 years ago when they never showed up.   

Thank you to ivan and the team

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: julz94 on September 05, 2024, 12:28:04 pm

Update. Appeal re-rejected
Please see attached
https://ibb.co/4KW0TQL
https://ibb.co/prcqXBm

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: cp8759 on August 28, 2024, 06:54:42 pm

@julz94 the council website indicates the penalty has not yet increased, so I suggest you go and make a formal representation now, you can use the same draft you submitted for the informal representation. Only three outcomes are possible:

1) They accept the representation and cancel the PCN, happy days.
2) They reject the representation and issue a notice of rejection, so you can appeal to the tribunal, or
3) They disregard the representation and serve a charge certificate, in which case you must follow the instructions here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-pcn/

Don't forget to take a screenshot of the confirmation page once the representation has been submitted.

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: Hippocrates on August 27, 2024, 01:38:01 pm

We are receiving mixed terminology.  Just wait for whatever they send you and we will advise.

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: julz94 on August 27, 2024, 01:17:33 pm

Update; spoke to them over the phone again,  that challenge rejection i received is on 4/12/24 is notice to owner. And rules have changed.
However i said why does it say on third page i will receive a notice to owner within 28days.
She says typo error.  I then said when can i receive a letter with a code that i can challenge at tribunal. Notice of recovery i believe she said.

She did not want to give me her name, and i can’t record it as I'm at work and no way of recording the call.

I said how can i go about making a formal complaint. She stated go challenge again online.

Do you reckon i should challenge again and make it a formal complaint ?

I also asked is there not a time limit of 6 months , she said no there is no time limit when we can issue notice of recovery.

This is really starting to p*** me off person over the phone sounds like she really hates her job and can’t be bothered to reply.

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: julz94 on August 27, 2024, 12:51:11 pm

Unfortunately no i did not get a name or record call.  I will try call them again and perhaps ask for details to make a formal complaint ?

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: Hippocrates on August 27, 2024, 12:28:14 pm

The grounds will assure a win at the Tribunal and I will happy to represent you:

Parking
Parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than the carriageway

We will consider your appeal according to our appeals policy. If your reason for appeal is not listed in the policy, we are unlikely to accept it. However we will still consider your case individually.

Pay and display (P&D) or Cashless
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving P&D tickets or cashless parking sessions.

Select a reason:
I had a Pay and Display (P&D) ticket 
I made a mistake when purchasing my pay and display (P&D) ticket 
I paid by phone or app 
I was in a rush and forgot to pay 
I went to get change 
The ticket machine was broken and I couldn't purchase a P&D ticket 
My card payment was declined 
Permits
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving parking permits.

Select a reason:
I had a permit 
Blue Badge
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving Blue Badges

Select a reason:
I had a Blue Badge 
Emergency / beyond driver's control
Reasons that relate to something unexpected happening to the motorist that must be seen to immediately

Select a reason:
I became unwell while driving 
I parked at the location because I needed the toilet 
I stopped because of an emergency situation 
My passenger became unwell while I was driving 
My vehicle had broken down 
My vehicle was cloned 
My vehicle was stolen 
PCN wrongly / unfairly issued
Reasons where it may appear that the PCN was issued unfairly or incorrectly.

Select a reason:
I only stopped for a few minutes 
I was not at the location on the day 
I was not served the PCN 
I was not the driver 
I was not the owner / keeper of the vehicle 
I was only a few minutes late back to my vehicle 
I was unaware of the rules 
My vehicle was not outside the bay 
The vehicle was on hire to someone else 
There was nowhere else to park 
Other
Other reasons we have received that do not fall into one of the above categories.

Select a reason:
A friend / family member recently passed away 
I didn't see any signs or lines 
I was loading / unloading at the time 
I was picking up / dropping off a passenger 
My vehicle is a taxi 
The owner of the vehicle has passed away 
None of the above
If none of the above reasons apply, and you wish to challenge your PCN, please select below:

Select a reason:
Any other reason

*******

Compare:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-at-my-own-driveway-pavement-parking/msg34536/#msg34536

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: Hippocrates on August 27, 2024, 12:19:11 pm

Just sit tight and eventually you will receive a Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery when you don't pay that. Don't part with your wallet in the meantime. I trust you recorded the call and noted the name?  4th December? Incredulous.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: julz94 on August 27, 2024, 12:14:32 pm

Hi- i contacted the council.
In which someone very rude answered and unhelpful. I stated, i have not received notice to owner.
She claims that notice to owner has been sent on 4 December 2023. However i said i have not received it. Letter dated 4th is challenge rejection.
she then went on to say you will receive another letter with an increased cost of £190 or whatever it is.

Any ideas what i can now do ?

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: cp8759 on April 28, 2024, 11:46:51 pm

Quote from: julz94 on April 27, 2024, 05:06:30 pm

Yes still active.

@julz94 contact the council next week and ask if a notice to owner has been issued. The six month deadline to serve (not send, serve) the nto was 25 April, so if one wasn't posted by 23 April at the latest then it's too late now.

That being said if they did serve one out of time you'd still have to challenge it as being out of time, you could not ignore it.

If nothing has been done it may be that you need to go down the formal complaint route, as you don't want this hanging over you indefinitely.

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: julz94 on April 27, 2024, 05:06:30 pm

Yes still active.

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: Incandescent on April 27, 2024, 10:09:03 am

Quote from: julz94 on April 27, 2024, 06:21:27 am

Just an update guys, i am yet to receive not to owner.
Is this normal ?
It has been 5 months.
Many thanks

They have 6 months to serve an NtO, but if they do they will have to explain themselves to an adjudicator if you stand your ground.

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: John U.K. on April 27, 2024, 08:26:36 am

Have you checked the online status?

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: julz94 on April 27, 2024, 06:21:27 am

Just an update guys, i am yet to receive not to owner.
Is this normal ?
It has been 5 months.
Many thanks

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: H C Andersen on December 04, 2023, 02:21:14 pm

@cp, what is it that the council are claiming? Is it that there are designated parking places in Amidas in the places indicated on the map tile? If so, did they provide the legend? Is their argument that these are parking places and not 'marked bays'** and therefore parking within is lawful pursuant to the order and that there can be no presumption as regards the rest of Amidas where there aren't markings, which seems to be the OP's argument, with perhaps some legitimate expectation thrown in?

As it stands, none of these parking places is a lawful parking place, see 3(1) and 3(2) of the order. None of these is signed(which is a condition under 3(1)) therefore they are not parking places.

IMO, the OP would need to make an argument as to why they believed that they could park where they did, which didn't have any markings, because I'm not certain that simply proving that what they think are parking places aren't would necessarily succeed. However, it could do just because of the embarrassment factor which could cause the authority to DNC or simply bury their heads as they did last time.

** As I posted in a different thread, 'marked bays' are optional and cannot extend to the carriageway because it's not the carriageway which is at issue, it's the extent of permitted parking on the footway. Markings on the carriageway could only indicate the presence of parking places. But unlike the other thread where these were signed, albeit incorrectly, these so-called parking places aren't signed at all! What a shambles. But would this shambles sway an adjudicator given that the OP wasn't parked within marked bays? IMO, they must be clear on why they did what they did and not just have target practice against the sitting duck which is the council.

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: julz94 on December 04, 2023, 01:50:06 pm

Hey guys.
Update- as expected my appeal has been rejected. Please see attached council response.
I am assuming i now await notice to owner ?
And reappeal with the same response as above ?

[attachment deleted by admin]

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: cp8759 on November 17, 2023, 04:24:48 pm

The council apparently rely on:

The London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (Charged-For Parking Places) Consolidation Order 2016 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=19CC2bsFAW0A9wCVxJcvbHv0Bnhj2eYZn).
Map tile V10 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1IrKOXpgs-yQCq4BzRsrUR_Mw0vtQ1Izv).

None of that is a resolution under section 15(4) of the 1974 Act, but even if it were, the council has not erected signs saying footway parking is permitted "in marked bays only" as required by section 15(5), so their case fails on that point, as per Lorna Jennifer Whittick v London Borough of Merton (2160383659, 10 October 2016) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1Zs6qrypSl0Iehm7EnxcdZCyqSGsjMJRy) and Aliecee Cummings v London Borough of Lewisham (219023696A, 18 July 2019) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1lUaIxbhlOx9DxT3XG5AFYWcjFxzPCDwa)

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: cp8759 on October 29, 2023, 01:24:56 am

Same as last time:

Dear London Borough of Barking & Dagenham,

I challenge liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. Footway parking is permitted on Amidas Gardens, and there are no diagram 667.1 signs with a plate specifying "in marked bays", so there is no indication that footway parking is permitted only in marked bays. Should the council wish to pursue this matter further, please would you supply the relevant council resolution made under section 15(4) of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974, confirming the exact extent of the area where footway parking is permitted.

Yours faithfully,

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: Incandescent on October 25, 2023, 10:06:18 pm

There does seem to have been some repainting of the marked bays since 2020. There is no GSV viewe for 2021.

Your last case was won because B & D offered no evidence so you won by default. Note that this was not a DNC, as B & D did not send a DNC advice to LT.  Would B & D do this again ? Clearly, the only way to find out is to take them to London Tribunals again.

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: julz94 on October 25, 2023, 09:54:24 pm

That is correct, no changes from street view

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: DancingDad on October 25, 2023, 09:35:44 pm

Ta
Seems like CEO used burst mode on his camera LOL
Only one shows the lack of road markings.
I suspect that the cable box and lack of space between car and box will be the reason a PCN was served but notoriously difficult to make that stick where footway parking is allowed or normally tolerated.

Streetview date is May 2022.... no changes since then like parking bays repainted or post signs put up??

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: julz94 on October 25, 2023, 09:07:21 pm

Please see, images on links


https://maps.app.goo.gl/ENhPShihBW4utRGV9?g_st=ic


https://ibb.co/wzFRPvp
https://ibb.co/nB9gzFp
https://ibb.co/3CcHvrp
https://ibb.co/dBM1kp9
https://ibb.co/SmbkC99
https://ibb.co/2qGrxTD

Many thanks

Title: Re: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: DancingDad on October 25, 2023, 08:25:08 pm

It may be same place and could be ten yards down the road.
The signs may be the same and may not be.
Council may have found the resolution
CEO may only patrol once a year.

Point is that to you it may seem the same but to us, it is a brand new one, similar at best.

Any council photos pls?

Title: Contravention code 62 PCN. Another PCN same location one year on
Post by: julz94 on October 25, 2023, 07:57:18 pm

Hi Guys,
I received a PCN code 62 , one year on after receiving the same ( which was appealed and took all the way to tribunal thanks to the help of other forum members and one in particular)
council didn't turn up at the hearing and didn't send any evidence.

‘Parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than the carriageway’   

Kerb parking is allowed on amidas gardens,


Either way last time i took it all the way out of principle as i don’t think it should stand, and again as last time i feel my car was singled out.

The road in question is amidas gardens in dagenham
Council is Barking and Dagenham.

Please refer to old post from another Forum 
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=146630&st=20&gopid=1754407&#entry1754407

Looking forward to some input on whether i have any grounds i can appeal this yet again

Many thanks

[attachment deleted by admin]