Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: hirerspcn on September 01, 2025, 12:59:32 am
-
Good decision. An adjudicator would not have looked kindly on the position you stopped in ay event.
-
You're not the owner, or at least the authority have not produced proof to this effect.
This doesn't change simply because they say niet, it's a matter of proof and law.
If you want to pay, this is your choice.
You are correct, i am not the owner and they have not provided any evidence of this.
But Respectfully, i have made multiple attempts to get further advice and PM you on this topic after i have received the rejection letter.
I did not want to pay, if i didn’t have to (which i did) but at the same time, if i had no advice to follow, what else could have i done in this position. So in this case i was better of paying the reduced rate instead of double.
-
You're not the owner, or at least the authority have not produced proof to this effect.
This doesn't change simply because they say niet, it's a matter of proof and law.
If you want to pay, this is your choice.
-
I have decided to pay, since I have not received any further advice.
This case can be closed.
Thanks
-
Any advice on this please.
I only have 2 more days until the discount period expires.
Thanks
-
@H C Andersen
Any advise.
Thanks
-
For convenience:
(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/Sog0tX3.jpg)
-
It wouldn't show any bbcode, only a link to the website
Here is the direct image url:
https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/Sog0tX3.jpg
-
As Imgur is no longer available in the UK, you will need to please use
ibb.co (https://imgbb.com/) or https://imgpile.com/
for posting images.
Wherever possible, use the BBCode
--------------------------------------------
From Google AI (cannot vouch for accuracy! ) :
AI Overview
To use BBCode with an image from ImgPile, you need to get the direct link to your image and then format it using the . On ImgPile, you can find the "BBCode" option under the "Full Image" category to copy and paste the correct code directly, which is then used to display the image on forums and other platforms that support BBCode.
Steps to use BBCode with ImgPile:
Upload your image to ImgPile .
Find the BBCode link: on ImgPile's sharing options.
Look for a section with different embed codes, including "BBCode".
Select the option for the full-size image if available.
Copy the BBCode: provided by ImgPile.
Paste the BBCode: into your post on a forum or platform that supports BBCode.
Example:
If the BBCode provided by ImgPile looks like (img width=433 height=287]https://imgpile.com/images/some-image.jpg[/img], then that is the exact code you would copy and paste into your post
-
I have received a response from the council, they have rejected my appeal.
Since i cannot use IMGUR anymore, as it is blocked in the UK, is there an alternative so i can post my letter here.
Thanks.
-
Fine by me.
-
Draft 2:
Dear Camden Council,
I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time. The vehicle was hired, and the PCN does not explain that it was sent to me as the hirer, nor does it include any documents showing that liability was transferred to me correctly.
For that reason, I ask that the PCN be cancelled.
In the event that the authority rejects these representations and considers that I may be treated as the 'owner' for the purposes of the regulations, then it must provide proof that liability has been transferred correctly and include with any rejection copies of the following:
Representations from the registered keeper to the effect that they are a 'vehicle-hire firm';
The 'hiring agreement'(this must include all details prescribed under the s66 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, as amended);
The signed statement of liability;
The authority's Notice of Acceptance.
Kind regards.
-
I would add...
In the event that the authority rejects these representations and considers that I may be treated as the 'owner' for the purposes of the regulations, then it must provide proof that liability has been transferred correctly and include with any rejection copies of the following:
Representations from the registered keeper to the effect that they are a 'vehicle-hire firm';
The 'hiring agreement'(please note that this must include all details prescribed under the s66 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, as amended);
The signed statement of liability;
The authority's Notice of Acceptance.
-
IMO, make reps to Camden as I set out earlier.
Draft attempt:
Dear Camden Council,
I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time. The vehicle was hired, and the PCN does not explain that it was sent to me as the hirer, nor does it include any documents showing that liability was transferred to me correctly.
For that reason, I ask that the PCN be cancelled.
Kind regards.
-
Stopped partly in the white zig zags too.
-
IMO, make reps to Camden as I set out earlier.
-
Should i ask my hire company what they have done/submitted, or send an appeal to Camden?
-
I have already given you the answer: you do not know that liability has been transferred to you within regulatory procedures.
See page 13 here:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/ETA%20Annual%20Report%202022%20-%202023.pdf
'..authorities have allowed transfer even when the required evidence has not been provided..'
But if you think that in your case all strict regulatory procedures have been complied with, even without requiring proof...!
-
That's as maybe, but this is not part of the enforcement process which I set out in detail in my last post. Being 'responsible for' could just mean that they pay penalties and then recharge the hirer.
My point stands: you are not the RK and may not be considered to be the owner unless the RK and authority comply with prescribed regulatory procedures.
My company does not pay any PCN charges except bus lane charges from Islington, other than that, they transfer liability to me in my own name and address, which i receive ~2weeks later.
Can i be considered the registered owner if i was the vehicles hirer at the time? Or does it always mean, who the vehicle is registered to?
-
I have not, but the hire agreement states that i am responsible for any PCNs for this vehicle.
That's as maybe, but this is not part of the enforcement process which I set out in detail in my last post. Being 'responsible for' could just mean that they pay penalties and then recharge the hirer.
My point stands: you are not the RK and may not be considered to be the owner unless the RK and authority comply with prescribed regulatory procedures.
-
The registered keeper did in fact make representations and transferred liability to me as per my hire agreement.
How do you know, have you seen their representations, evidence in support* and, crucially, the authority's Notice of Acceptance?
I have not, but the hire agreement states that i am responsible for any PCNs for this vehicle.
My point stands. On the basis of the PCN which does not categorise your standing they are demanding a penalty. Irrespective of the contravention their power to demand a penalty is subject to them complying with strict conditions and IMO it is open to you to put them to proof regarding their compliance, it's not for you to research. And if they do, then they should re-offer the discount.
Ok, when I appeal, will my only point be that I was never the vehicle owner?
-
The registered keeper did in fact make representations and transferred liability to me as per my hire agreement.
How do you know, have you seen their representations, evidence in support* and, crucially, the authority's Notice of Acceptance?
My point stands. On the basis of the PCN which does not categorise your standing they are demanding a penalty. Irrespective of the contravention their power to demand a penalty is subject to them complying with strict conditions and IMO it is open to you to put them to proof regarding their compliance, it's not for you to research. And if they do, then they should re-offer the discount.
Up to you.
*- vehicle-hire firm” has the meaning given in section 66(8) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (hired vehicles);
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2546/schedule/2/made
“hiring agreement” has the meaning given in section 66(8) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (hired vehicles);
-
Any advise on this please. I total forgot about it :-[
-
OP, to whom is the PCN addressed, you by name?
This is addressed to me by name and address.
If so, then as you say it's hired then you can make reps on the grounds that you were never the owner. The only way in which hou could be considered the owner is if the registered keeper elected to make reps on the grounds that they are a vehicle hiring firm etc. But you're entitled to make reps because the authority haven't said in the PCN that it's been sent to you as the hirer neither have they included evidence that ownership was transferred correctly as per regulations.
In fact, we don't even know if the hire company are the registered keeper or whether they use the vehicle under a lease.
If I do make reps based on that i was never the owner (which is true) couldn't the council just say that we have your hire agreement here, and it says you accept all liability.
The registered keeper did in fact make representations and transferred liability to me as per my hire agreement.
-
OP, to whom is the PCN addressed, you by name?
If so, then as you say it's hired then you can make reps on the grounds that you were never the owner. The only way in which hou could be considered the owner is if the registered keeper elected to make reps on the grounds that they are a vehicle hiring firm etc. But you're entitled to make reps because the authority haven't said in the PCN that it's been sent to you as the hirer neither have they included evidence that ownership was transferred correctly as per regulations.
In fact, we don't even know if the hire company are the registered keeper or whether they use the vehicle under a lease.
-
Here is part of the video - shows you were picking someone up but sadly on the bus stop clearway.
These are the rules - I think some non-clearway red route stops are OK but nearly all London council bus stops have a yellow clearway.
Private hire vehicles cannot stop at 'bus stop clearways' marked with a wide yellow line by the kerb. On red routes both taxis and private hire vehicles cannot stop at bus stops marked with a wide red line by the kerb. At other red route bus stops, taxi and private hire drivers should avoid stopping to avoid disruption to the bus network.
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/parking-information#on-this-page-1
Also watch out for the red route in Redbridge as this isn't TFL and doesn't allow PHV although some adjudicators allow appeals.
(https://i.ibb.co/rRGzsN3n/London-Boroughof-Camden-PCNEvidence-ezgif-com-video-to-gif-converter-1.gif)
-
Unless there's a fault in the paperwork it seems to be a another slam dunk case. The words BUS STOP in big letters on the road should give you clue along with the thick yellow line next to the kerb. This rule applies to virtually every bus stop in London.
-
I am using a Vehicle Hire (under 6 months).
I was picking up a passenger, I did not realize that I am not allowed to stop here, which is in between some zigzag lines and a bus stop.
PCN Image Pg1 - https://i.imgur.com/DL3THQ3.jpeg
PCN Image Pg2 - https://i.imgur.com/Xc0FSLk.jpeg
PCN Image Pg3 - https://i.imgur.com/Rp4gfxv.jpeg
PCN Image Pg4 - https://i.imgur.com/qB1WyeO.jpeg
Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/YZuVYhzSSyHurkAZA
Street View: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Av1Xz1vBb39KSfUT6