Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: StatusBaby on August 26, 2025, 06:54:41 pm
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Well I've won and I should be happy - but I have been denied my proverbial day in court. After spending hours preparing my case, not to mention taking time off work to attend the tribunal, I am not happy that Barnet have acted this way >:(
At the very least I would have appreciated advanced notice so that I didn't waste a half-day holiday from work. A phone call form the Tribunal just a few hours beforehand doesn't cut it. I previously took TFL to appeal, and at least they had the decency to write to me a couple of weeks before the hearing to let me know they were not contesting the appeal.
If there were any justice, Barnet should now be paying me!
I really hope that all of the work I put in - based on the work of many others in this community - provides a useful repository to help the next motorist who is penalised at this location make a valid appeal.
Two comments: firstly, you could apply for costs if you think the council has behaved in a wholly unreasonable manner, see https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/costs (you can claim £19 an hour for the time you have actually spent on the case, whether the adjudicator will agree is of course another matter).
Secondly, I think you've taken a wholly unjustified amount of time off work for this. Half a day for a 45 minute hearing? C'mon. I've previously seen a TPT hearing where an appellant asked for a whole day because he booked a day off work for a 30 minute hearing, the adjudicator said they'd not entertain anything of the sort as the time claimed was out of all proportion.
When I ask clients to attend a hearing, most people will move around the start or end of their shift or take an extended lunch break, many workplaces measure annual leave by the hour rather than by the day or the half day, and if your workplace is unreasonably inflexible then it's still not clear why the taxpayer should bear the burden of that.
To the extent that you want to claim time for attending the hearing, you'd be really lucky to get an hour at most. If there was really no way you could attend the hearing other than booking a half day off work, your grievance is really with your employer rather than with the council.
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Mr Mustard - you are a legend - but I respectfully suggest you think again.
As part of my research I read the ruling on case 2240465350, and if that were the only evidence I would not have contested the PCN. However, case 2250099929 introduced significant new evidence in the form of a map from TFL released under a FOI request. The map clearly shows that the sign and the exact location where the turn would be made is, as a matter of fact, a GLA road.
The adjudicator in case 2250099929 stated:
"There is no evidence before me that would persuade me that the official map provided by Transport for London is wrong. In light of that finding, I find as a fact that the Appellant's vehicle turned left from a GLA road into Brentfield Gardens, and section 4(3) of the 2003 Act requires that in such circumstances the prior written consent of TfL is required before a penalty charge can be served by this Authority"
and the appeal was upheld.
I would urge anyone who receives a PCN to read through case 2250099929 before paying what I am convinced is an unlawfully issued PCN.
I wanted my day in court because I understand that the Tilling Rd/Brentfield Gardens location is one of the biggest PCN revenue sources for Barnet. Laws apply to all - to motorists as well as to councils. The issue in this case is not the quality of the signage, but the legality of the PCN. If the council are required by law to have the written permission of TfL to issue PCNs at that location - as I and the adjudicator of case 2250099929 believe, then they should complete the formalities and obtain it.
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I probably know more about this location now than any other person. I lost in case 2240465350 after a lot of research and I decided the adjudicator was correct so I did not review. I no longer fight PCNs at this location as any driver who turns there has missed ample signage.
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Well I've won and I should be happy - but I have been denied my proverbial day in court. After spending hours preparing my case, not to mention taking time off work to attend the tribunal, I am not happy that Barnet have acted this way >:(
At the very least I would have appreciated advanced notice so that I didn't waste a half-day holiday from work. A phone call form the Tribunal just a few hours beforehand doesn't cut it. I previously took TFL to appeal, and at least they had the decency to write to me a couple of weeks before the hearing to let me know they were not contesting the appeal.
If there were any justice, Barnet should now be paying me!
I really hope that all of the work I put in - based on the work of many others in this community - provides a useful repository to help the next motorist who is penalised at this location make a valid appeal.
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You won because Barnet changed parking contractor on 1 December and a secret source has told me they are in turmoil, my pending Barnet tribunal cases are all slowly being binned off. Happy days.
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My appeal was due today at 2pm via Teams. I got a call this morning to say that Barnet had failed to submit any evidence and that I did not therefore need to attend the appeal.
I have been told the adjudicator will write to me with the outcome.
I'll update further when I have more info.
The outcome is that you have won.
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My appeal was due today at 2pm via Teams. I got a call this morning to say that Barnet had failed to submit any evidence and that I did not therefore need to attend the appeal.
I have been told the adjudicator will write to me with the outcome.
I'll update further when I have more info.
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I have nothing else to go on, the reduced fine rate option has been and gone. I therefore plan to make an appeal based on the evidence presented in THIS (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nQlu0kbGwEvoOIadtk58IlkCRoEcDLMb/view) case by cp8759.
The appeal linked above makes reference to AN FOI REQUEST (https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-3038-2425) in which the case officer states:
Please see the attached document ‘FOI-3038’. On the map, the blue line shown going down from the main road to ‘cycle way’ is the end of the TfL Network. This can also be seen in the attached picture, there are ‘End of Clearway’ signs. Beyond that point roads belong to the London Borough of Barnet.
The banned left signs shown in the image are covered by GLC Order from 1976, and would be for the Borough to enforce. A copy of the Order is attached for your information.
However, the map supplied by TFL shows that at the point where I turned left, the road is in fact a GLA road.
I will therefore appeal on this basis quoting the various cases cited by cp8759 and the two upheld appeals here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UEoaFM5zlMcWqDcrYp6YeUap2EfkGeJC/view) and here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nQlu0kbGwEvoOIadtk58IlkCRoEcDLMb/view).
I must admit to feeling completely our of my depth - so any further help or advice would be appreciated.
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Traffic Management Order
4Penalty charges for road traffic contraventions
(1)This section applies where—
(a)in relation to a GLA road or GLA side road, Transport for London or, subject to subsection (3) below, the relevant borough council; or
(b)in relation to any other road in the area of a borough council, the relevant borough council or, subject to subsection (4) below, Transport for London,
have reason to believe (whether or not on the basis of information provided by a camera or other device) that a penalty charge is payable under this section with respect to a motor vehicle
....
5)Subject to subsection (6) below, for the purposes of this section, a penalty charge is payable with respect to a motor vehicle by the owner of the vehicle if the person driving or propelling the vehicle—
(a)acts in contravention of a prescribed order; or
(b)fails to comply with an indication given by a scheduled section 36 traffic sign
..
“prescribed order” means an order under section 6 or 9 of the Act of 1984 [a Traffic Management Order] which makes provision for a relevant traffic control
The authority referred to a TMO in their reply.
In short:
TMOs make restrictions, lack of compliance with which is a 'road traffic contravention' or similar expression. However, enforcement of these is only possible under other legislation e.g. Traffic Management Act, LLA etc.
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I'm not sure what you mean by TMO - and Google isn't much help. Although I redacted the VRM and PCN numbers in the rejection letters, I did not in the original PCN which is here:
(https://ibb.co/tTnHnZ4y)
The img code does not appear to be working - please click HERE (https://ibb.co/tTnHnZ4y)
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Odd that this order doesn't appear on legislation.gov website.
I wonder whether the incorrect reference to Barking and Dagenham for Barnet has been altered.
So it's item 57 under the second listing of B&D in the Schedule.
We can't check the TMO because you've deleted your VRM and partly redacted your VRM. Pl reinstate both in full.
The cited cases were not decided on the grounds that Tilling is or isn't a GLA road, rather the lack of evidence from the authority to this effect when the burden lies with them.
If me, I would write back to council, not the authority.
To the Chief Executive.....
Barnet Council Acting Ultra Vires
I am bringing this matter to your attention as it is being ignored by those with direct responsibility who are seeking shelter under an umbrella of anecdote and received wisdom and 'no-one will find out' rather than investigating matters as they should. I am referring to what I believe are the unlawful demands made by the enforcement authority arm of the council exercising powers under the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003, specifically those penalties raised in respect of Tilling Road.
I submit that the law in this matter is not complex.
By virtue of s3(1) and s3(2) of The GLA Roads (No.3) Designation Order 2008, Tilling Road is designated as a GLA Road, s4(1) and s4(3) of The London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 therefore have effect. The council of the LB Barnet is therefore prevented from enforcing any contraventions which would otherwise be exercisable in respect of breaches of provisions of any Traffic Management Order without 'the consent in writing of Transport for London'.
At no time has the authority adduced evidence of this consent at adjudication by the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators who have always allowed appeals on this point. It is unfortunate that ETA is not a regulator nor has any oversight duties otherwise it is likely that they would have written to you earlier on this matter. Similarly Transport for London.
Please investigate this matter and if the council possess the necessary consent in writing please supply a copy.
I am sure that the scale of this issue will not have escaped you. Bearing in mind that all demands of owners for payment of penalties pursuant to the LLA for Tilling Road and all other GLA-designated roads(I anticipate that you would broaden your internal enquiries to cover these) would be rendered ultra vires and in all likelihood refundable then the cost to the council would be significant.
Thank you.
Yours***
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The link to the GLA Roads (No.3) Designation Order 2008
is HERE (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1dmzc0AJXf0tw_JL5aRpLNt5nO-dbq-St)
downloads PDF
The discussion about this exact location and issue between CP8759, Karma and ashirusnw is here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-for-illegal-left-turn/15/)
There is also a previous appeal heard and upheld on this issue here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UEoaFM5zlMcWqDcrYp6YeUap2EfkGeJC/view)
Many thanks
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Can't find this: GLA Roads (No.3) Designation Order 2008
Do you have a link?
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Anyone able to help?
It's an appeal argument I have seen before, but I'm not up-to-speed on it. It would only be tested at London Tribunals. One or two people on here have had experience of appeals based on this, but may be on holiday in sunnier climes. You have the right in law to take them to London Tribunals on this basis, with the full PCN penalty in play.
We've seen this location a few times before, so have a look at the London Tribunals Statutory Register using the location on the PCN as the search argument, (plus a date range, of course)
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals
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Anyone able to help?
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Hi - so the appeal was rejected (of course!) on the basis that the London Borough of Barnet is the authorised authority for this location - and inviting me to view the TMO.
I'm no expert in this field - but my understanding is that the TMO is not relevant in my appeal.
Can anyone just give me a nod as to if my appeal is still valid and if I should consider going to Tribunal or throw in the towel now?
Here are the links - please note I have tried using the "Insert an image" option - but it is not working as you will see if you look at the code. Hence I have posted the links to the files. Apologies in advance.
Original PCN
(https://ibb.co/tTnHnZ4y)
https://ibb.co/tTnHnZ4y (https://ibb.co/tTnHnZ4y)
My appeal is posted in this thread.
Rejection p1
(https://ibb.co/23ykL5Zd)
https://ibb.co/23ykL5Zd (https://ibb.co/23ykL5Zd)
Rejection p2
(https://ibb.co/svmSLKpZ)
https://ibb.co/svmSLKpZ (https://ibb.co/svmSLKpZ)
Rejection p3
(https://ibb.co/NnGkyCKf)
https://ibb.co/NnGkyCKf (https://ibb.co/NnGkyCKf)
Advice gratefully received - with thanks in advance.
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Appeal to Council going in tomorrow - comments/advice appreciated.
Dear Sir/Madam,
Re: PCN AG49512224
Alleged Contravention: 50L Performing a prohibited turn (no left turn)
Tilling Road is designated a GLA road by virtue of the GLA Roads (No.3) Designation Order 2008 and therefore written consent of the GLA is required before Barnet Council can enforce this contravention.
The London Tribunals case reference 2230545486 upheld an Appeal on this basis for the same contravention on 22nd January 2024.
If Barnet Council have subsequently obtained consent in writing from the GLA to enforce this contravention on Tilling Road, please send me a copy.
If The London Borough of Barnet does not have written consent from the GLA to enforce this contravention at Tilling Rd., please withdraw the PCN.
Yours faithfully etc.
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I received this PCN and was about to pay when I thought I'd check here - and it would appear that there is grounds for appeal as Tilling Rd is a GLA road and the Council would therefore need written consent of the GLA before it can enforce the convention. That is detailed here:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/barnet-pcn-for-illegal-left-turn/msg36339/?topicseen#msg36339 (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/barnet-pcn-for-illegal-left-turn/msg36339/?topicseen#msg36339)
But that is quite an old post - so seeking your expert advice before I start the appeals process with Barnet.
Full post here https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-for-illegal-left-turn/ (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-for-illegal-left-turn/)
Happy to take this all the way if your advice is to fight the good fight!
Link to PCN letter https://imgur.com/a/wwqVxYq
https://imgur.com/a/wwqVxYq (https://imgur.com/a/wwqVxYq)