Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: 1Pilgrin1 on October 24, 2023, 06:00:21 pm
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Great, many thanks
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Couple of missing words?
....covenant I do NOT have any notification...
... land as outlineD in the deed of covenant...
...I fullY respect ...
There's possibly more, so do check.
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This is what I propose to send:
Dear xx,
I am writing regarding the parking issue with respect to bay XX at the XXXX, XXXX.
Under the terms of my deed of covenant I do have any notification that I am required to participate in a parking enforcement scheme and this sets a primacy of contract that continues to today.
Furthermore, as the leaseholder and owner of the land as outlines in the deed of covenant I formally object to XXXX [Management Company] having signed a contract with the parking enforcement company without my consent and it is not Xenia’s legal position to sign a contract on land I legally own have rights over.
I full respect the permissions XXXX [Management Company] has to manage the common areas and I fully abide by these; but not for the land that as a leaseholder, I own.
As I am currently having to park off-site until this issue is resolved I would be appreciate if you could get back to me in 7 days to keep costs to a minimum for us both.
Kind regards
Many thanks for your guidance so far and let me know your thoughts on this
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Thanks your your reply and I'll re-phase the letter.
In my previous message I meant to write "I am now wanting" rather than "not wanting"
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so I have queried the fines with the Parking Enforcement company
What do you mean by this, what did you send them?
I am not wanting to challenge the decision from the Management Company
Out of interest, why not? It may not be a decision that is in their power to make, after all.
I note we still haven't seen the lease. But from what we've seen it does seem that the space is yours, I'd therefore suggest the focus of your proposed letter ought to be different - the important thing here is not necessarily that they aren't allowing you to 'opt out' of any parking scheme, it's that they've potentially signed a contract with the parking company, granting that company rights that are not the management company's to grant (i.e. to operate on your land).
My personal view is that any letter you send will be far more compelling if you assert your position, which they would have to counter to explain why they believe UKPS can operate, rather than just asking them what they think their position is.
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Hi,
so I have queried the fines with the Parking Enforcement company and I am still waiting to hear back.
I am not wanting to challenge the decision from the Management Company that doesn't allow me to opt out.
I get the feeling the decisions are just being made off the cuff so I wanted to start with an exploratory letter.
Hopefully somebody can advise me whether the attached might make an OK starting point so I understand what they believe is their legal position.
thanks
Richard
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Where's the lease?
The Deed of Covenant is what you use when you assign the lease.
The 'rules' are just a piece of paper.
If your lease grants you the right to a space, marked out on the plan, then I'd be more straightforward.
"Dear sirs,
As per the lease (attached) between myself and FREEHOLDER of DATE, you will note that I have leased the land on which my vehicle was parked from DATE to [999 years from now]. There is no requirement in the lease to display a permit, and even if there were, failure to do so would be a breach of the lease remedy of which is between myself and the FREEHOLDER.
For the avoidance of doubt, I am the landholder of the land my vehicle was parked upon.
If any party has been misled into believing that they (or someone else) is the landholder and that they can enforce a parking regime on my spot, that is between those two parties.
I will not be paying a parking charge for parking on my own property, nor will I display a 'permit'.
Yours etc,"
But only IF the land is yours. What does your lease show?
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I think the approach of contacting both the management company and the parking company is sensible. Obviously the urgent issue is addressing the live charge, but the underlying issue involves the management company.
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many thanks for this
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Thanks.
Dear Sir,
Re: ***************
On ** and **** my vehicle, VRM ****, was issued with Parking Charge Notices presumably issued by your staff. These purport to claim that the driver is indebted to you for a parking charge for which they are liable by virtue of them breaching a contract. The contract in question being one which you believe all drivers who park in the **** area enter into with yourselves. In the case of these PCNs the alleged breach was 'parking without displaying a permit'.
It follows from this that you believe that while parked in a space which is demised under my lease, and is therefore land over which in this context I have unfettered rights, I can in some way be subject to terms and conditions which apply to common areas. I was not privy to (mgmt co's) tendering process or indeed the terms of your agreement, but if you believe that you may exercise any control and rights over my land then you have been misinformed.
At present I am prepared to accept that this has been a simple breakdown in communication between you and ****(mgmt co.) which I leave to you to repair-I have copied this letter to them. However, please be aware that you are now on notice that you may not enter onto my property for any purpose other than that which in my absolute discretion I may grant you. **** (mgmt co.) are similarly excluded other than for the discharge of their functions to ensure that covenants and general matters regarding maintaining good order are complied with.
Please confirm your receipt and agreement to the above and that the charges have been cancelled.
Hugs,
To the Mgmt Co.
Re: ****(your address)
I am the leaseholder of the above. The demised property consists of ****(address) and parking place *****.
As you know by virtue of our recent communication, you have employed a contractor to exercise functions regarding parking within the estate. For some reason the contractor seems to believe that the scope of their contracted authority extends to the private property of occupiers of the estate. Even as I wrote this and hopefully as you read it you will understand that this cannot be the case and in my case it certainly is not.
Please see the copy of a letter I have written to ***(contractor) on this matter. I am now writing to you in similar terms. Your authority to exercise control over my property is limited to those functions which fall to you to ensure that occupiers comply with the terms of their tenancy agreements and their undertakings to comply with various covenants and the maintenance of the estate in general. Other than in limited cases, you are not permitted to exercise control over or enter occupiers' property, and this includes property in the form of parking places demised under a lease.
If you wish to enter onto my property then I may authorise you to do so and enforcing parking rules against unauthorised vehicles would seem to be a case in point. Indeed, at times I have acquiesced to your request to display a permit to assist your contractor manage the parking area. But any implied authority does not include allowing you to charge me for parking on my land whether with or without a permit. Such a belief is frankly absurd.
I hope we can find some common ground in this issue, but for now I am writing to inform you that, as per the enclosed letter, your contractor may not enter onto my property or purport to exercise rights over it. For the avoidance of doubt, any prior authorisations which you might consider have been given by me in this regard are immediately revoked.
For comment.
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Hi,
the breaches are for not displaying a parking permit.
I don't have a permit as I had opted out of the parking scheme which had been originally introduced by a previous management company.
A new management company took over about a year ago and in July they emailed to say a new parking enforcement company were being introduced.
I replied back stating that I had opted out of the scheme and wished to continue to opt out.
I didn't get a reply so assumed this had been acknowledged
Then on the 21st Sept I received my first ticked and immediately raised this with the management company.
They wrote to say:
EMIAL:
Every permit holder must abide by this new parking control scheme.
It is not possible to opt out of this new scheme.
To keep using this car park, you will need to pick up a new permit that complies with the new scheme.
*********
I then called to query this as I wasn't a "permit holder" in the first place and that I had always opted out of any scheme.
Over the course of following 3 weeks I placed multiple calls to the Management Company that were promised a reply from the Property Manager but this never happened. During this time I received a second ticket in early October and subsequently have had to park off-site ever since so as to avoid getting any further tickets.
I gave the Management Company email confirmation of my opt-out but they wrote back to say:
EMAIL:
Apologies for not getting back to you yesterday, I was under the impression one of the on-site staff was going to go to your flat and knock on and have a chat regarding the parking.
As far as we (XXXX, XXXX board of directors) are concerned, you cannot be exempt from a parking space.
I would take this up with the parking company – UKPS and query it with them for further clarification as they are the one who enforce the tickets to un-permited cars.
****************
I have have help off replying until I get some advice here as to what to do.
There is nothing within the Deed of covenant or in the tenancy agreement about a parking scheme.
Thanks
Richard
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Thanks.
What are the exact breaches alleged, I can't see them in the PCN?
And what did you write to the Mgmt Co. Pl include dates: are we talking about days, weeks, months ago?
Sorry to appear pedantic, but an answer(their reply) can only be seen in the context of a question, your letter/email, which we've not seen.
My thoughts are that it's the Mgmt Co. who should be in your crosshairs: parking contractors come and go, but the MC are in place continuously. You need to tell them where their authority ends. Don't back away from this.
You have no authority over my space - see my lease - and it appears that you've either led your contractor to think they have or they've exceeded their authority. In either case you need to clarify matters with them. My enclosed letter to ***(the contractor) on this matter is self explanatory but if I get any resistance from them then regretfully I shall be coming back to you etc. etc.
OP, you cannot act as if your lease doesn't say and mean what it does, it's not your choice.
But we need to know the alleged breach(es) and your email.
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It just feels like the Management Company have given over all/any control to the Parking Enforcement company which doesn't seem right?
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Hi,
thanks for your email and I was starting to think it was getting a bit complicated and missing the point of the appeal of the PCN
With respect to the email I received from the management company - this is it:
Good afternoon,
Apologies for not getting back to you yesterday, I was under the impression one of the on-site staff was going to go to your flat and knock on and have a chat regarding the parking.
As far as we ([Management Copmpay], [Residency] board of directors) are concerned, you cannot be exempt from a parking space.
I would take this up with the parking company – {xxxx] and query it with them for further clarification as they are the one who enforce the tickets to un-permited cars.
Thank you.
Kind regards,
********************************
Would be good to get your thoughts on this
Thanks
Richard
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OP, in all honesty this is getting overly complicated IMO.
First of all, a lease is a tenancy agreement it's just that when it's month to month or short-term occupation the term tenancy is used, but when it's longer the term lease is used. There are other distinctions one of which is referred to in one of your posts in which you show the assignment agreement! This is necessary because although you can dispose of your lease, the freeholder needs to know that the assignee (buyer) obligates themselves to covenants just as the tenant(seller) did.
It is clear from what you've posted that the Mgmt Co's ability to make 'regulations' or otherwise place limits on occupiers' freedoms is circumscribed by these being only in respect of common areas, buildings and grounds, NOT occupiers' property per se. They may place limits on HOW your property is used e.g. no hanging of washing out of windows, no nuisance, no fires etc. (I wrote this before reading the Tenancy Agreement, so a pretty good guess on my part!) but IMO these would be either specified or referred to in your occupancy agreement which in your case we believe is a lease.
I think your draft strays from the centre-line.
But before you send anything, where is the mgmt co's email refusing your 'opt-out'? With respect, and I think you've touched on this yourself, you are not adept at compiling such communications and I suspect that there's been miscommunication with the Mgmt Co. Their role is prescribed and circumscribed by their Memorandum and Articles - see the manual and you'll find this stated clearly. They are a legal entity, they cannot simply invent rules.
Dear Sir,
Re: ***************
On ** and **** my vehicle, VRM ****, was issued with Parking Charge Notices presumably issued by your staff. These purport to claim that the driver is indebted to you for a parking charge for which they are liable by virtue of them breaching a contract. The contract in question being one which you believe all drivers who park in the **** area enter into with yourselves. In the case of these PCNs the breach was ....
and when I got this far I had to stop because the PCNs in your posts don't include the alleged breach!
Neither have you actually contacted them so you don't know whether they would without argument accept they've made a mistake, so I think your first letter should adopt a tone which accepts that this is just a mistake.
So:
The alleged breach(es) pl.
The Mgmt Co's email, pl.
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I struggle a bit with getting the wording right around legal phrases so would be good to get some additional feedback on this.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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thanks for your feedback - I'll do a few amendments
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What's the SON for, parking without displaying a permit, or just parking there?
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I've removed the attachment as you have included your email address and phone number in there.
I'd redact those and Reupload!
And as an aside, I'd leave your phone number out. You want to do any communication with the parking company in writing, so that you have a record of everything.
In terms of the focus of the letter, I'd focus on your rights as the owner of the space, and primacy of contract.
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Hi all, I have put together a PCN appeal letter.
Would be really grateful to get some feedback on this.
I need to write a separate one for the Management company to appeal their cancellation of my opt-out and I'll share this here once I've don a draft
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Thanks for the message and your thoughts so far.
I will look again for the tenancy agreement but will also check out the forums you mentioned and try to draft something to send to the enforcement company and management company
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Hi, I am still trying to find the Tenancy agreement but not sure I have one.
The deed of covenant you have shared makes reference to a lease dated 26th April 2006, so one must exist.
From what we've seen so far, in the absence of any clause/covenant in the as yet unseen lease, the space is yours to use, and there's nothing requiring you to allow a third party parking company, a stranger to said lease, to issue charges in your space, and much less for you to enter into any contracts with them/pay them any money. Any appeals to the parking company can be made on this basis - you may wish to share a draft here for feedback.
Any correspondence with the management company will be along similar lines - although getting a copy of the lease would be wise. Then you can refer to that and all the documents and make clear that there is no requirement for you to participate in any private parking company scheme, nor allow them to operate on your parking space.
You may want to read up on cases on PePiPoo and the MSE forums regarding residential parking, and 'primacy of contract'.
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I have two issues on-going.
1. How do I appeal the 2 PCN tickets I have received so far?
(these were issued when I believed I had opted out of a parking enforcement scheme)
2. Do I have the right to appeal that I can no longer opt out of the parking enforcement scheme or do I have to abide by whatever the management company decides
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Hi, I am still trying to find the Tenancy agreement but not sure I have one.
But as there was no parking enforcement in place there wouldn't have been any reference to it in any agreement.
The option to opt-out was accepted by the first management company but the new company are insisting I can't but have not provided any amendments to my tenancy agreement.
I've attached 2 doc showing the deeds for the parking space and the summary of the tenancy agreement rules. If there was any parking enforcement rules it would have been listed here.
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It's not so much parking enforcement, but what your lease says about you having the right to park.
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I need to get the leaseholders agreement again but from memory there was nothing about parking enforcement as there wasn't anything in place at that point and it has never been updated.
I'll dig it out and post here
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All parking Services UK ltd
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We don't need the tenant's manual, we need the wording of your lease.
What parking company is it?
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and the ticket
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Hi - thanks for your comments so far.
I have attached a photo of the ticket
Plus the details of the tenants manual.
There is nothing specific relating to parking as this was issued prior to the parking enforcement being introduced and I haven't seen any subsequent amendments.
They have listed a few points that are non-permissible but nothing to do with parking.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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As said, we need to see the lease as it refers to:
Parking;
Resolution of disputes.
We also need to know the relationship between the other party to the lease (the landlord) and the 'facilities management company'. Then the question of why have you not contacted the other party to the lease about this matter might come into focus. If any action by the FMC purports to rights of you or the landlord then they should also know what's going on.
Today parking, tomorrow walking on cracks in the pavement?
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Can you show us what exactly your leasehold says in regards to parking? From what you've said so far, there's a potential argument to be made that you have an existing right to park in the space, and as such, you have not entered into any contract with the parking company (the parking charges being alleged contractual charges).
Additionally, are you able to show us the parking charge(s) you have received? Depending on their contents their may be a simple way to get them cancelled - whilst this wouldn't resolve the overriding issue, it would allow you to continue seeking a resolution with the management company and/or the parking company without the threat of potential court action looming.
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I have own an apartment in a large residential property (leasehold) since 2012 which is managed by a facilities management company.
I have my own designated parking bay which listed in my deeds.
When I moved in there was no parking enforcement scheme but this was introduced by the facilities management company in 2016.
I didn't want to participate in the scheme so agreed with the then facilities management company that I would opt out and I have email evidence of this.
I did get the occasional ticket which I raised with the facilities company and they got the parking enforcement organisation to retract the ticket.
In 2022 the facilities management company changed and in June of this year they emailed all tenants to say they were introducing a new parking enforcement company. I email replied to state I had opted out previous and wish to continue to opt out.
I didn't receive any reply.
About 5 weeks ago I received a parking ticket so I emailed the new facilities management company to re-state I had opted out and please get the ticket rescinded. They emailed back to say I can't opt out.
Since then I have tried to call on multiple occasions and nobody was willing to speak with me to explain why I couldn't continue to opt out.
I had to continue to park in my bay and I have now received a further ticket whilst this issue was (in my opinion) in dispute.
I have now sent them evidence from correspondence with the previous facilities management company stating I had opted out but the new management company just replied to state that it is not possible to opt out.
There is nothing in my leaseholders agreement to state I have to participate in a parking enforcement scheme.
So, is legally possible to opt-out?
Should my opt-out from the previous scheme have rolled-on to the new scheme; or if not should I have received formal notification
And, would it be an acceptable argument to argue the 2 current tickets I have are invalid as they were issued when I have documented evidence of my opt out and hadn't at that point received notification on any changes to my opt-out.
thanks