Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: bunny_hop on October 23, 2023, 01:06:37 pm
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Haringey decided not to contest the appeal, presumably when they realised they were up against Mr Mustard.
Many thanks for everyone's help - and for Mr Mustard's work on the appeal.
Mr Mustard is truly a rare species - soon to be knighted if I were Prime Minister. As for the other guy from Norfolk, too.
As for me, I cannot even afford a toy sword. ;D
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Haringey decided not to contest the appeal, presumably when they realised they were up against Mr Mustard.
Many thanks for everyone's help - and for Mr Mustard's work on the appeal.
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No worries. Good to speak earlier.
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Ok will do, thanks.
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I'm happy to do it (email me on mrmustard@zoho.com) I don't think Hippocrates will mind and I have history with Haringey as they had to change the wording on this document because I challenged it before and won, so they changed it and got something else wrong! Also, I am already physically at the tribunal every week so no bother to do one more.
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Ok thanks Mr Mustard. I don't think I'd be able to clearly present it myself as it is too convoluted for me - so if either yourself or Hippocrates would be happy to help with the adjudication / representation, that would be much appreciated.
So what do I write on the appeal form which has to be sent for adjudication - and should I get it in sooner rather than later (i.e. before the 14 days discount limit which may or may not be around 11th December or 19th December according to the key events timetable on Haringey's portal - linked in on one of my previous posts).
Thank you.
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I am clear that the 3 line paragraph above the 2 alleged contravention images on the front of the PCN makes the PCn non-compliant and am 90+% certain I would win at the tribunal. I'm really 100% sure but sometimes something does go wrong. In 2023 I have had 97 tribunal Appeal in person hearings. I have lost 9 of them.
The Notice of Rejection also gets the legislation wrong. The 2003 Act contained what is essentially a flaw. It says 'must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice' and 'representations received after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice was served'. Clearly therefore an increased value and a charge certificate cannot apply until the later date and the council have said the earlier date. They have got themselves cornered. The argument simply needs to be clearly presented to an adjudicator who will have seen similar before.
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Ok, thank you.
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I am saying that this is a very technical appeal which could go either way at the Tribunal. It is my duty to say this. I am awaiting the chief expert's view very soon. He is very busy but I will speak with him tomorrow personally about your case,
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Hi again.
So are you saying you don't think it's worth going ahead to adjudication then? Haringey have fully considered or they haven't ?
When you say technical - do you mean in terms of PCN wording or something else?
Is it worth stating my case about lack of / inadequate warning signs about entering a LTN?
Thanks
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This would be a very technical appeal. I believe they have not failed to consider from what I have seen.
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The PCN is invalid as it says they can send a charge certificate 28 days after the pcn date when it is 28 days after service. Just tell Haringey that, ignore anything about the way you drove.
(8)A penalty charge notice under this section must—
(a)state—
(i)the grounds on which the council or, as the case may be, Transport for London believe that the penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;
(ii)the amount of the penalty charge which is payable;
(iii)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;
(iv)that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion;
(v)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable;
(vi)the amount of the increased charge;
(vii)the address to which payment of the penalty charge must be sent; and
(viii)that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to this Act; and
(b)specify the form in which any such representations are to be made.
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Charge certificates
5(1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent.
(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28 days beginning—
(a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served;
(b)where such representations are made and a notice of rejection is served by the enforcing authority and no appeal against the notice of rejection is made with the date on which the period within which an appeal could have been made expires; or
(c)where there has been an unsuccessful appeal against a notice of rejection, with the date on which notice of the adjudicator’s decision is served on the appellant.
(3)Where an appeal against a notice of rejection is made but is withdrawn before the decision of the adjudicator is made the relevant period in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which the appeal is withdrawn.
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I need to see the representations in full please. Please do not do anything yet. And see my post below.
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Thanks Hippocrates for reply - sorry for delay in responding.
I've not gone through this process to adjudication before so not familiar with all the terminology I'm afraid. When you say post up full formal representations - do you mean when I've written up the details of appeal on the notice of appeal form?
What do you mean if they have failed to consider? Plus thanks for offering to represent me at tribunal.
What is my appeal argument? Do I repeat what I wrote to the council - that the PCN does not comply (stated date of notice rather than date of service), and add that I found the one warning sign before entering the LTN (and the lack of anymore warning signs) on my approach turning into the road, to be inadequate?
Hopefully I can complete the form and post up tomorrow.
Thanks in advance for any guidance.
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Okay bunny_hop: please post up the full formal representations. When I see them, and if they have failed to consider, I am happy to represent you at the tribunal. Clearly there is an issue with the timing period in which to serve a C.C. and if they failed to consider it, that is the end of it in my view.
Meanwhile, their comments about the C.C. baffle me.
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Hi, rejection letter as predicted has arrived (27th Nov). Will try to upload letter which is saved as PDF.
Can anyone please kindly advise as to whether it's still worth carrying on to adjudication or pay up while still at reduced rate (letter dated Thursday 24th Nov and arrived Monday 27th so have until 10th December?).
Thanks.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Ok thanks, good to know. Will post council reply / rejection when it arrives.
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Mr Mustard and pastmybest have found a fatal flaw in the PCN, something odd going on here because I'm sure Haringey PCNs used to be OK.
The council will almost certainly reject but don't worry about that, post the notice of rejection on here when you get it and one of us will help you with the tribunal appeal.
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This is moving traffic so next step is adjudication
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Thanks Pastmybest and everyone for their help so far.
I will submit the first representation about the PCN wording being non-compliant and let you know the council's response.
If they reject, hopefully I can get further advice about how best to appeal at Tribunal stage.
Many thanks so far.
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Dear Mr Parking
I make representations against PCN number xxxxxxxxxxx by way of collateral challenge in that as the PCN does not comply with the regulations then no penalty is due and as such the Penalty exceeds the required amount
The PCN states " if the penalty charge before the end of the period beginning with the date of this notice an increased charge of £195 may be payable and we may send you a charge certificate. This is not as the law states which is 28 days beginning with the date of service of the PCN in this case some two days later
The PCN does not comply with the regulations and is thus unenforceable and must be cancelled
Coincidently the date for making representations also starts from the date of service so you have until the 31st to make representations
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Thanks Mr Mustard for your reply.
I'm confused by the contradictory statements I've read on traffic forums so far on the wording issue.
Just to clarify -
Is the PCN wording requirement according to the London LA and TfL Act 2003?
So the PCN must have Date of Service for the bits about increased charge and issuing of Charge Certificate, whereas Date of Notice must be stated for the payment bit?
What is the strategy reasoning then?
Tell the council the wording is wrong, expect to have this rejected (I'm not sure whether Haringey blanket rejects or not) and then have to go to tribunal?
And then just argue on this point at tribunal - so at no stage include request for council’s discretion (was unaware of new LTN, non-resident first time mistake) and/or mitigation (lack of warning signs on my approach route and only one unlit non-traffic sign poorly positioned right before zebra crossing, non resident not knowing road name being referred to)?
Any further advice about strategy and what to draft for first response would be great, as want to get reply sent by / before Sunday 29th which is when 14 day discount ends.
Thanks.
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The PCN is invalid as it says they can send a charge certificate 28 days after the pcn date when it is 28 days after service. Just tell Haringey that, ignore anything about the way you drove.
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Any help please!! - I've only two days left to appeal to council (by this Friday 29th).
I wanted advice on which main points to include for drafting my first response to council to send today hopefully (??inadequate signage on approach fron Durnsford Rd, unlit non-traffic sign difficult to see at night, non-resident would not know road names mentioned??) and what if anything to hold back for adjudication stage?
Plus if I send a link of photo evidence of poor signage - how do I set it up pix so I can see if viewed at all.
Many thanks.
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Thanks Incandescent, I agree about the warning sign. I'm not in the habit of wilfully ignoring signs and putting myself in a no-go area. I would have gone another way round had I known.
I think I'm happy to test this all way to adjudication, because hopefully the council will be advised to warn motorists sufficiently.
I'd like to set up the images, as cp8759 suggested, with a click / view counter to see if the council actually considers the evidence - can someone kindly tell me the best way to do this please?
And what main points should I raise first with the council?
Explain as mitigation I was unfamiliar with the new scheme, driving back at night, and inadequate signage failed to warn me from driving form Durnsford Rd direction via Gordon Road (unlike if I were coming from the opposite direction where warnings are obvious turning from Bounds Green Road into Gordon Rd)?
And had I known I wouldn't have gone through Gordon Rd?
And because signage was inadequate, it was unclear whether I was already breaking a contravention by driving down Gordon Rd as well, so was unsure if doing a u-turn would have avoided the contravention of exiting into Bounds Green Rd as well?
Or is that too much? Which points should I hold back for adjudication? What would be the main points to raise at adjudication?
Any further advice is much appreciated. Thanks!
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For me, their small and unlit sign is totally inadequate, as it is not a traffic sign. It is also all text and assumes you know all the street names. It is basically just a cheap and nasty way of ticking a box; "advance warning sign ? yep, done that, so tick the box." A proper traffic sign would show a junction diagram of the streets with those that are now cul-de-sacs. These cost more, so councils don't like putting them up.
However the downside is that such is the greed for cash in councils, they will reject all your reps, and you'd have to test the matter at London Tribunals with the full PCN penalty in play. This is why only about 1-2% of London PCNs ever get to adjudication.
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Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately it was confusing for me because of the lack of signage warning motorists not to drive through Gordon Rd because it has been turned into low traffic scheme. I don't think I'm the only motorist to find it more difficult to take in what signage is there at night on an unfamiliar route (or with unfamiliar new restrictions). It would seem you can't turn into the road from Bounds Green Rd where the camera is, the signage makes it clear on Bounds Green Rd itself, but not if you come from the other direction. Then it is OK to to turn into Gordon Rd from the other direction where there is no signage, and then get caught out.
It doesn't look that dark to me.
Unfortunately it was dark enough for me at 11.30pm to miss spotting the only advance warning sign (see first pic - a small sign on Durnsford Rd just before a zebra crossing) before turning into Woodfield Way/Gordon Rd - otherwise I wouldn't have turned into Gordon Rd had I known. The first signage to show there was any type of access restriction in place was right at the end of Gordon road as I was leaving it, so confusing if you're not meant to go down Gordon Rd in the first place and don't see any signage until it's too late. I wasn't sure if I was allowed in Gordon Rd at all, so maybe pointless doing a u-turn just to avoid exiting onto Bounds Green Rd.
The TMO is The Haringey (Prescribed Routes) (No. 12)
setting it up view a click / view counter so we can prove whether they're looked at your supporting evidence.
(https://drive.google.com/uc?id=13lb6xunz1CHd3mlXC6fmOboaiiC0Hj2u)
Sounds good. How does one do that?
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The TMO is The Haringey (Prescribed Routes) (No. 12) Experimental Order 2022 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=13lb6xunz1CHd3mlXC6fmOboaiiC0Hj2u) and it is still in force unless it's been revoked, which seems unlikely.
Unfortunately these signs looks clear as day:
(https://i.imgur.com/dJ8ZORs.jpg)
If you say they're confusing, the council will reply that you should have read the highway code.
Here's the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjIGt2tq5gk
It doesn't look that dark to me.
There are two possible strategies:
1) Make a plea for discretion, or
2) Try and trip the council up into failing to consider your representations.
Strategy 1 involves appealing to the authority's discretionary power not to enforce, which is a power only the council has (the tribunal cannot allow an appeal on this basis).
Strategy 2 involves giving the council a link to a video or image you want them to consider, and setting it up view a click / view counter so we can prove whether they're looked at your supporting evidence. If they fail to look at it, you can then win on a failure to consider.
The best approach might be to combine both approaches (provide evidence of mitigation by means of a link), but first we need to know if you have any meaningful mitigation to put forwards.
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Two things really, (1) is the TRO still valid, and (2) is the signage adequate ?
What was your route that got you to the Gordon Road and Bounds green Lane junction ?
Thanks - I was just posting pix after your post!
-Don't know but will try to find out if TRO still valid.
-Just posted photos which I think show signage on approach was not adequate.
-So would say along Durnsford Rd poor / insufficient warning and certainly no warning when turning into Woodfield Way and Gordon Rd until you get right to the end of Gordon Rd exit onto Bounds Green Rd.
-Yes, did pass restriction side, but only realised when it was too late, due to poor advance signage and difficult to interpret in the dark on unfamiliar route (unfamiliar in sense I had not used this route for a long time and was unaware a new scheme had been imposed). I thought it meant I wasn't meant to have driven into Gordon Road at all, so doing a u-turn would not have made any difference. That's what I thought at the time, but wasn't sure because I found restriction and signage confusing.
Suppose it's worth a try appealing as really can't afford £65 let alone £130 fine at the mo.
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Excuse this longer posting - it is to explain the series of pictures taken to document the poor / lack of warning signage before and during the turning into Woodfield Way and Gordon Road. This would explain why I didn't see or wasn't aware of any clear warnings that a new restriction had been imposed, and that I was no longer meant to be turning into Gordon Rd in order to access Bounds Green Rd.
I found the signage leading up to the actual road and restricted turning either non-existent, poor or barely visible, particularly for a non-resident unfamiliar with road names, driving late at night and unaware of a new traffic scheme having been imposed. I don't know if that is a strong enough defence or offers sufficient mitigation to appeal.
The route I was driving is one I used to use occasionally when I lived in the area a few years ago, when no restrictions existed back then. Since moving out of the area, on this occasion of driving the same route, it was the first time doing so in a couple of years, hence I had missed out on any publicity or warnings that a new temporary traffic scheme was being introduced and therefore wasn't expecting any restrictions on my route and not especially looking out for new signage. I don't recall seeing anything that would have made me aware until it was too late.
Durnsford Rd, the main road leading up to the Woodfield Way, was the approach I was coming from (not the other way from Bounds Green Rd) and found there was only one small sign on Durnsford Rd some distance away from the actual turning into Woodfield Way, which would have been difficult to read especially in the dark, and was positioned just before a zebra crossing, which I would be prioritising my focus on at that point, again particularly at night when dark. It stated 'No access to Bounds Green Rd via Woodfield Way' - I did not know the name of Woodfield Way before now, so even if I had been able to clock it (or had time to clock it) and read it properly, I would not have known which road the sign was referring to. This is the small warning sign - https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280473021/in/dateposted-public/
After this sign, there are no more warning signs at the turning into Woodfield Way, neither on Woodfield Way or Grodon Road itself until right at the very end of Gordon Road and exit into Bounds Green Road, when it is already too late.
No signs at turning from Durnsford Rd into Woodfield Way -
https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280501696/in/dateposted-public/
No signs in Woodfield Way before turning into Gordon Road -
https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280793968/in/dateposted-public/
No signs at turning from Woodfield Way into Gordon Rd -
https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280515361/in/dateposted-public/
Still no warning signs as you round bend in Gordon Rd -
https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280801743/in/dateposted-public/
Still no signs in Gordon Road before end of road -
https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280989920/in/dateposted-public/
These are only warning signs right at end of Gordon Road as exiting into Bounds Green Road which are difficult to interpret until you get right up to the exit, and in the dark I found these confusing, as I had not seen the clearer signs on other side, the ones you would see from the Bounds Green Rd approach. I didn't see these as approached from Durnsford Rd, not Bounds Green Rd.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280808873/in/dateposted-public/
From a distance, when unfamiliar with a new traffic scheme, these signs are confusing without sufficient prior warning signage, and I found it difficult to interpret what was going on in the dark. However, I was not aware of this signage until too late, upon exiting the road.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280816618/in/dateposted-public/
These are signs seen from Bounds Green Rd side (after exiting) which are more obvious that motorists are not meant to have access. If you are travelling along Bounds Green Road on approach (which I wasn't - I was exiting onto Bounds Green Rd), it is easier to see the sign stating 'no access to Durnsford Rd'. Unfortunately I did not see this signage on this side until actually exiting into the main road (Bounds Green Rd) when I saw these in my rear view mirror. But I still was not fully aware of the exact restriction as I didn't have time or capacity to properly read/study these while driving out onto a main road.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53279657082/in/dateposted-public/
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Two things really, (1) is the TRO still valid, and (2) is the signage adequate ?
I suspect the TTRO is for 18 months, but it may be for a shorter period. Having established the TTRO the council must place signs so that a reasonably competent motorist can obey the restriction.
GSV is unfortunately not sufficiently up-to-date, the latest view is June 2022. You seem to be coming out of Gordon Road into Bounds Green Lane. What we really need to see is if there is advance warning of the restriction. One would therefore expect to see warnings at the junction of Gordon Road and Passmore Gardens/Edwards Drive. If there are none you are in with a chance, but only a chance, it wouldn't be a slam-dunk win as you did pass the restriction sign, (or so it seems from the video)
What was your route that got you to the Gordon Road and Bounds green Lane junction ?
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Hello, I hope I can get advice on whether it's worth contesting this PCN.
I think the last day to pay the discount is October 29th. There was a posting about this particular restriction a year ago but no follow up.
I wasn't aware of this new restriction against turning into this road as I didn't see new signage when first entering Woodfield Way from the main road Durnsford Rd (B106) which you have to do in order to turn into Gordon Rd before turning into Bounds Green Rd. I used to live in this area and regularly took this route before any restriction, but since moving, I haven't been back this way for a couple of years. Hence I wasn't expecting there to be any restriction and didn't clock any signage when I drove into this road late at night on my way home recently. The only time I realised there was some sort of new restriction was after seeing signage as I exited Gordon Rd, turning into Bounds Green Rd, when of course it was too late.
It turns out this is a temporary restriction installed as a low traffic scheme in August last year. Google map only shows pix of the road in June 2022 before the restriction and new signage were implemented. I am planning to go back for pix of existing signage (the signage I presumably missed at night upon entering the road).
Please can you advise if there are any grounds to contest this. Is it worth asking the council to exercise discretion due it to being a new temporary restriction that I wasn't aware of, no longer being a a local resident, and it being difficult to clock new signage in the dark (suspect not!).
Many thanks for any advice in advance.
Hope have added flickr links for both sides of PCN letter correctly - https://flic.kr/p/2pb4kC7 and https://flic.kr/p/2pb2wAq