Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: abipa on August 07, 2025, 02:55:20 am
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I need Sherlock Holmes to navigate 2016 TSRGD.
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Thank you gentlemen for your time, much appreciated.
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@cp8759 @mrmustard
Do paras 43 and 67 still apply?
We'd need a bit more context, how do you think they might apply to the current case?
@cp8759The juxtaposition of signs which are not allowed? The 953 and the legend? I can't find any other authorities which contradict the said statement at 43.
Judith Tracey at DFT used to be a contact. But, I don't know of any update. This was in pepipoo days. I can't find any exception in the most difficult to access TSRGD 2016.
You'll have to wade your way through the TSRGD 2016, obviously at the time of the judgment the 2016 regs didn't exist, so you can't rely on it.
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@cp8759 @mrmustard
Do paras 43 and 67 still apply?
We'd need a bit more context, how do you think they might apply to the current case?
@cp8759The juxtaposition of signs which are not allowed? The 953 and the legend? I can't find any other authorities which contradict the said statement at 43.
Judith Tracey at DFT used to be a contact. But, I don't know of any update. This was in pepipoo days. I can't find any exception in the most difficult to access TSRGD 2016.
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@cp8759 @mrmustard
Do paras 43 and 67 still apply?
We'd need a bit more context, how do you think they might apply to the current case?
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@cp8759 @mrmustard
Do paras 43 and 67 still apply?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mNVj6Ot_5htvFuxDu6SpIz0vkqQTz9XQ/view
43. The letter dated 10 November 2009 from the Treasury Solicitors department on behalf
of the Department for Transport states (paragraph 3.2) that “a bus gate does not have
continuous road marking to indicate a lane and the road marking ‘bus lane’ cannot be
used”.
67. Secondly, the Adjudicator considered that Diagram 953 should have been used to
denote a bus lane but (see [31]) the Secretary of State refused to permit that sign to be
used.
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Sent.
Thank you
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Sent.
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Do you you think I have a chance?
If I PM you my details you can send a pdf to me. I need to see all of it plus all the documents.
I would be much obliged please.
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Do you you think I have a chance?
If I PM you my details you can send a pdf to me. I need to see all of it plus all the documents.
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Do you you think I have a chance?
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You know what I am going to say.
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The PCN was issued to you because your vehicle was seen driving through a route that is restricted to certain vehicles.
Having reviewed the case, we have decided not to cancel the PCN. The reasons for our decision and options available to you at this stage are set out below.
Whilst we appreciate that driving in the dark can be difficult, there are two restriction signs at the location both of which are illuminated. There is no exception for using the restricted route and the motorist is responsible for checking the signs and ensuring that they adhere to the regulations.
We remain satisfied that the regulations were met and that recommendations contained in guidance are not actual legal requirements.
There is also no requirement for motorists to drive the whole length of the restricted route for a contravention to have occurred. Therefore, as the CCTV footage shows that your vehicle passed the restriction signage, a contravention occurred and the PCN was issued correctly.
We are satisfied that the wording on the PCN is compliant.
Do you recommend that I appeal online at www.londontribunals.gov.uk?
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Sorry as was busy all day yesterday. Good luck.
Hello. I hope you are well.
My appeal has been rejected.
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.
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Sorry as was busy all day yesterday. Good luck.
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Still thinking on it. Probably later this evening.
PCN wording. Bus Lane legend. Left hand sign. Circumstances making it impossible to reverse out.
I am writing to formally challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice, issued for an alleged moving traffic contravention at the Townley Road bus gate at 00:28 hours on [date].
I respectfully submit that the PCN should be cancelled on the grounds that the contravention did not occur, for the following reasons:
⸻
1. Inadequate and Poorly Maintained Road Markings (TSRGD Compliance)
• The road legend “BUS LANE”/“BUS ONLY” at the location is extremely faded and barely visible, particularly in low-light conditions. Which is it? If Bus Lane, say it is not in the regulations for it to be placed with a 953 sign.
• Under Regulation 18 of the Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, the council has a duty to ensure that traffic signs and road markings are maintained so that they are clearly visible at all times.
• TSRGD 2016 and Department for Transport guidance require that road markings and signs be both lawful and sufficiently conspicuous to give road users adequate warning.
• At 00:28 hours, visibility is naturally reduced; the poor state of the markings made it impossible to clearly recognise the restriction before committing to the turn.
⸻
2. Lack of Adequate Advance Warning Signs
• There was no clear advance warning on my approach to indicate that the exit ahead was restricted to buses only.
• TSRGD and DfT guidance recommend advance signage for bus gates so that drivers can take an alternative route without making unsafe manoeuvres at the point of entry.
• The first visible sign to me was on the left-hand side after I had already begun turning, making avoidance impossible without hazard.
⸻
3. Immediate Attempt to Comply Once Restriction Noticed
• Upon realising the lane gate was for buses only, I immediately attempted to reverse out to avoid entering the restricted section.
• The council’s own video evidence shows my attempt to do so. Unfortunately, a bus entered the lane at that moment, preventing me from safely reversing without endangering myself or other road users.
• This demonstrates my lack of intent to commit the contravention and my willingness to comply once the restriction became apparent.
⸻
4. Time, Circumstances, and Lack of Gain
• This incident occurred at 00:28 hours, when bus traffic is minimal and there is no benefit or advantage to me in entering the bus gate.
• My actions were not motivated by any attempt to bypass traffic or gain priority — I was simply unaware of the restriction due to the inadequate signage and faded markings.
⸻
5. Supporting Precedent and Public Interest
• The London Tribunals have previously allowed appeals in cases where bus gate or bus lane signage/markings were not sufficiently visible or maintained, especially where drivers took immediate action to comply once aware.
• Enforcement should be aimed at preventing deliberate misuse, not penalising drivers caught out by unclear or poorly maintained restrictions, particularly in low-light conditions.
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Conclusion
Given the inadequate road markings, lack of advance warning, reduced visibility at night, and my immediate attempt to avoid the restriction upon realisation, I respectfully request that the PCN be cancelled.
I look forward to your confirmation that this PCN has been withdrawn.
Is this okay?
I have amended accordingly. Also, I would add this at the end:
I make this collateral challenge regarding the wording of the sentence immediately above the box re payment. Since the PCN omits mandatory information that the PCN must be paid by 28 days beginning with the date of the notice, the said statement therefore conflates the two distinct time periods and renders the PCN unclear and invalid. In light of all the above, please cancel.
Thank you so much for your elaborate reply. I have a few questions, I would be very grateful for your response to them. I will post my questions in the next reply.
Could you please help me with the first point? I did not understand what to erite.
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1. Inadequate and Poorly Maintained Road Markings (TSRGD Compliance)
• The road legend “BUS LANE”/“BUS ONLY” at the location is extremely faded and barely visible, particularly in low-light conditions. Which is it? If Bus Lane, say it is not in the regulations for it to be placed with a 953 sign.
• Under Regulation 18 of the Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, the council has a duty to ensure that traffic signs and road markings are maintained so that they are clearly visible at all times.
• TSRGD 2016 and Department for Transport guidance require that road markings and signs be both lawful and sufficiently conspicuous to give road users adequate warning.
• At 00:28 hours, visibility is naturally reduced; the poor state of the markings made it impossible to clearly recognise the restriction before committing to the turn.
I was reading regarding the Bus lane legend and the 953 sign, I see that both of them need to be placed as per regulations.
How do you suggest that I add this particular point?
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Still thinking on it. Probably later this evening.
PCN wording. Bus Lane legend. Left hand sign. Circumstances making it impossible to reverse out.
I am writing to formally challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice, issued for an alleged moving traffic contravention at the Townley Road bus gate at 00:28 hours on [date].
I respectfully submit that the PCN should be cancelled on the grounds that the contravention did not occur, for the following reasons:
⸻
1. Inadequate and Poorly Maintained Road Markings (TSRGD Compliance)
• The road legend “BUS LANE”/“BUS ONLY” at the location is extremely faded and barely visible, particularly in low-light conditions. Which is it? If Bus Lane, say it is not in the regulations for it to be placed with a 953 sign.
• Under Regulation 18 of the Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, the council has a duty to ensure that traffic signs and road markings are maintained so that they are clearly visible at all times.
• TSRGD 2016 and Department for Transport guidance require that road markings and signs be both lawful and sufficiently conspicuous to give road users adequate warning.
• At 00:28 hours, visibility is naturally reduced; the poor state of the markings made it impossible to clearly recognise the restriction before committing to the turn.
⸻
2. Lack of Adequate Advance Warning Signs
• There was no clear advance warning on my approach to indicate that the exit ahead was restricted to buses only.
• TSRGD and DfT guidance recommend advance signage for bus gates so that drivers can take an alternative route without making unsafe manoeuvres at the point of entry.
• The first visible sign to me was on the left-hand side after I had already begun turning, making avoidance impossible without hazard.
⸻
3. Immediate Attempt to Comply Once Restriction Noticed
• Upon realising the lane gate was for buses only, I immediately attempted to reverse out to avoid entering the restricted section.
• The council’s own video evidence shows my attempt to do so. Unfortunately, a bus entered the lane at that moment, preventing me from safely reversing without endangering myself or other road users.
• This demonstrates my lack of intent to commit the contravention and my willingness to comply once the restriction became apparent.
⸻
4. Time, Circumstances, and Lack of Gain
• This incident occurred at 00:28 hours, when bus traffic is minimal and there is no benefit or advantage to me in entering the bus gate.
• My actions were not motivated by any attempt to bypass traffic or gain priority — I was simply unaware of the restriction due to the inadequate signage and faded markings.
⸻
5. Supporting Precedent and Public Interest
• The London Tribunals have previously allowed appeals in cases where bus gate or bus lane signage/markings were not sufficiently visible or maintained, especially where drivers took immediate action to comply once aware.
• Enforcement should be aimed at preventing deliberate misuse, not penalising drivers caught out by unclear or poorly maintained restrictions, particularly in low-light conditions.
⸻
Conclusion
Given the inadequate road markings, lack of advance warning, reduced visibility at night, and my immediate attempt to avoid the restriction upon realisation, I respectfully request that the PCN be cancelled.
I look forward to your confirmation that this PCN has been withdrawn.
Is this okay?
I have amended accordingly. Also, I would add this at the end:
I make this collateral challenge regarding the wording of the sentence immediately above the box re payment. Since the PCN omits mandatory information that the PCN must be paid by 28 days beginning with the date of the notice, the said statement therefore conflates the two distinct time periods and renders the PCN unclear and invalid. In light of all the above, please cancel.
Thank you so much for your elaborate reply. I have a few questions, I would be very grateful for your response to them. I will post my questions in the next reply.
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Still thinking on it. Probably later this evening.
PCN wording. Bus Lane legend. Left hand sign. Circumstances making it impossible to reverse out.
I am writing to formally challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice, issued for an alleged moving traffic contravention at the Townley Road bus gate at 00:28 hours on [date].
I respectfully submit that the PCN should be cancelled on the grounds that the contravention did not occur, for the following reasons:
⸻
1. Inadequate and Poorly Maintained Road Markings (TSRGD Compliance)
• The road legend “BUS LANE”/“BUS ONLY” at the location is extremely faded and barely visible, particularly in low-light conditions. Which is it? If Bus Lane, say it is not in the regulations for it to be placed with a 953 sign.
• Under Regulation 18 of the Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, the council has a duty to ensure that traffic signs and road markings are maintained so that they are clearly visible at all times.
• TSRGD 2016 and Department for Transport guidance require that road markings and signs be both lawful and sufficiently conspicuous to give road users adequate warning.
• At 00:28 hours, visibility is naturally reduced; the poor state of the markings made it impossible to clearly recognise the restriction before committing to the turn.
⸻
2. Lack of Adequate Advance Warning Signs
• There was no clear advance warning on my approach to indicate that the exit ahead was restricted to buses only.
• TSRGD and DfT guidance recommend advance signage for bus gates so that drivers can take an alternative route without making unsafe manoeuvres at the point of entry.
• The first visible sign to me was on the left-hand side after I had already begun turning, making avoidance impossible without hazard.
⸻
3. Immediate Attempt to Comply Once Restriction Noticed
• Upon realising the lane gate was for buses only, I immediately attempted to reverse out to avoid entering the restricted section.
• The council’s own video evidence shows my attempt to do so. Unfortunately, a bus entered the lane gate at that moment, preventing me from safely reversing without endangering myself or other road users.
• This demonstrates my lack of intent to commit the contravention and my willingness to comply once the restriction became apparent.
⸻
4. Time, Circumstances, and Lack of Gain
• This incident occurred at 00:28 hours, when bus traffic is minimal and there is no benefit or advantage to me in entering the bus gate.
• My actions were not motivated by any attempt to bypass traffic or gain priority — I was simply unaware of the restriction due to the inadequate signage and faded markings.
⸻
5. Supporting Precedent and Public Interest
• The London Tribunals have previously allowed appeals in cases where bus gate or bus lane signage/markings were not sufficiently visible or maintained, especially where drivers took immediate action to comply once aware.
• Enforcement should be aimed at preventing deliberate misuse, not penalising drivers caught out by unclear or poorly maintained restrictions, particularly in low-light conditions.
⸻
Conclusion
Given the inadequate road markings, lack of advance warning, reduced visibility at night, and my immediate attempt to avoid the restriction upon realisation, I respectfully request that the PCN be cancelled.
I look forward to your confirmation that this PCN has been withdrawn.
Is this okay?
I have amended accordingly. Also, I would add this at the end:
I make this collateral challenge regarding the wording of the sentence immediately above the box re payment. Since the PCN omits mandatory information that the PCN must be paid by 28 days beginning with the date of the notice, the said statement therefore conflates the two distinct time periods and renders the PCN unclear and invalid. In light of all the above, please cancel.
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Still thinking on it. Probably later this evening.
PCN wording. Bus Lane legend. Left hand sign. Circumstances making it impossible to reverse out.
I am writing to formally challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice, issued for an alleged moving traffic contravention at the Townley Road bus gate at 00:28 hours on [date].
I respectfully submit that the PCN should be cancelled on the grounds that the contravention did not occur, for the following reasons:
⸻
1. Inadequate and Poorly Maintained Road Markings (TSRGD Compliance)
• The road legend “BUS LANE”/“BUS ONLY” at the location is extremely faded and barely visible, particularly in low-light conditions. Which is it? If Bus Lane, say it is not in the regulations for it to be placed with a 953 sign.
• Under Regulation 18 of the Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, the council has a duty to ensure that traffic signs and road markings are maintained so that they are clearly visible at all times.
• TSRGD 2016 and Department for Transport guidance require that road markings and signs be both lawful and sufficiently conspicuous to give road users adequate warning.
• At 00:28 hours, visibility is naturally reduced; the poor state of the markings made it impossible to clearly recognise the restriction before committing to the turn.
⸻
2. Lack of Adequate Advance Warning Signs
• There was no clear advance warning on my approach to indicate that the exit ahead was restricted to buses only.
• TSRGD and DfT guidance recommend advance signage for bus gates so that drivers can take an alternative route without making unsafe manoeuvres at the point of entry.
• The first visible sign to me was on the left-hand side after I had already begun turning, making avoidance impossible without hazard.
⸻
3. Immediate Attempt to Comply Once Restriction Noticed
• Upon realising the lane gate was for buses only, I immediately attempted to reverse out to avoid entering the restricted section.
• The council’s own video evidence shows my attempt to do so. Unfortunately, a bus entered the lane at that moment, preventing me from safely reversing without endangering myself or other road users.
• This demonstrates my lack of intent to commit the contravention and my willingness to comply once the restriction became apparent.
⸻
4. Time, Circumstances, and Lack of Gain
• This incident occurred at 00:28 hours, when bus traffic is minimal and there is no benefit or advantage to me in entering the bus gate.
• My actions were not motivated by any attempt to bypass traffic or gain priority — I was simply unaware of the restriction due to the inadequate signage and faded markings.
⸻
5. Supporting Precedent and Public Interest
• The London Tribunals have previously allowed appeals in cases where bus gate or bus lane signage/markings were not sufficiently visible or maintained, especially where drivers took immediate action to comply once aware.
• Enforcement should be aimed at preventing deliberate misuse, not penalising drivers caught out by unclear or poorly maintained restrictions, particularly in low-light conditions.
⸻
Conclusion
Given the inadequate road markings, lack of advance warning, reduced visibility at night, and my immediate attempt to avoid the restriction upon realisation, I respectfully request that the PCN be cancelled.
I look forward to your confirmation that this PCN has been withdrawn.
Is this okay?
I have amended accordingly. Also, I would add this at the end:
I make this collateral challenge regarding the wording of the sentence immediately above the box re payment. Since the PCN omits mandatory information that the PCN must be paid by 28 days beginning with the date of the notice, the said statement therefore conflates the two distinct time periods and renders the PCN unclear and invalid. In light of all the above, please cancel.
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It reads well, but don't be surprised if they reject your reps and refuse to cancel the PCN. London councils, and also councils of large cities elsewere in England, are notorious for refusing all representations no matter how valid. This is because they know from experience that if they do this, most people just cough-up, being unwilling to risk the full PCN penalty at the adjudicators. So if you want an unbiased assessment of your case, you have to take them to London Tribunals
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Still thinking on it. Probably later this evening.
PCN wording. Bus Lane legend. Left hand sign. Circumstances making it impossible to reverse out.
I am writing to formally challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice, issued for an alleged moving traffic contravention at the Townley Road bus gate at 00:28 hours on [date].
I respectfully submit that the PCN should be cancelled on the grounds that the contravention did not occur, for the following reasons:
⸻
1. Inadequate and Poorly Maintained Road Markings (TSRGD Compliance)
• The road legend “BUS LANE”/“BUS ONLY” at the location is extremely faded and barely visible, particularly in low-light conditions.
• Under Regulation 18 of the Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, the council has a duty to ensure that traffic signs and road markings are maintained so that they are clearly visible at all times.
• TSRGD 2016 and Department for Transport guidance require that road markings and signs be both lawful and sufficiently conspicuous to give road users adequate warning.
• At 00:28 hours, visibility is naturally reduced; the poor state of the markings made it impossible to clearly recognise the restriction before committing to the turn.
⸻
2. Lack of Adequate Advance Warning Signs
• There was no clear advance warning on my approach to indicate that the exit ahead was restricted to buses only.
• TSRGD and DfT guidance recommend advance signage for bus gates so that drivers can take an alternative route without making unsafe manoeuvres at the point of entry.
• The first visible sign to me was on the left-hand side after I had already begun turning, making avoidance impossible without hazard.
⸻
3. Immediate Attempt to Comply Once Restriction Noticed
• Upon realising the lane was for buses only, I immediately attempted to reverse out to avoid entering the restricted section.
• The council’s own video evidence shows my attempt to do so. Unfortunately, a bus entered the lane at that moment, preventing me from safely reversing without endangering myself or other road users.
• This demonstrates my lack of intent to commit the contravention and my willingness to comply once the restriction became apparent.
⸻
4. Time, Circumstances, and Lack of Gain
• This incident occurred at 00:28 hours, when bus traffic is minimal and there is no benefit or advantage to me in entering the bus gate.
• My actions were not motivated by any attempt to bypass traffic or gain priority — I was simply unaware of the restriction due to the inadequate signage and faded markings.
⸻
5. Supporting Precedent and Public Interest
• The London Tribunals have previously allowed appeals in cases where bus gate or bus lane signage/markings were not sufficiently visible or maintained, especially where drivers took immediate action to comply once aware.
• Enforcement should be aimed at preventing deliberate misuse, not penalising drivers caught out by unclear or poorly maintained restrictions, particularly in low-light conditions.
⸻
Conclusion
Given the inadequate road markings, lack of advance warning, reduced visibility at night, and my immediate attempt to avoid the restriction upon realisation, I respectfully request that the PCN be cancelled.
I look forward to your confirmation that this PCN has been withdrawn.
Is this okay?
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Still thinking on it. Probably later this evening.
PCN wording. Bus Lane legend. Left hand sign. Circumstances making it impossible to reverse out.
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I'll do a draft tomorrow.
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I was going from the same side of the bus.
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I have looked at the video. You were surely hampered by the bus as you were clearly trying to reverse out.
Did you approach the restricted area from the left or from the same direction as the bus?
I am not exactly sure if the Bus Lane legend is correct with this contravention upright sign.
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2nd page please.
Please find attached the 2nd page of the PCN.
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@Hippocrates, I am sorry but I did not get you there. 2nd page of?
He would like to see the second page of PCN, you have only posted the first page. More often than not, the experts on this site, such as Hippocrates, can help by using technical dificiencies in the process to help succedssfully overturn a PCN. What may appear to be a standard load of garbage text to you, often contains fatal errors giving you a lifeline to avoid paying the PCN.
Okay, thanks mate.
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I hope the imgur link and Google maps link are accessible.
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@Hippocrates, I am sorry but I did not get you there. 2nd page of?
He would like to see the second page of PCN, you have only posted the first page. More often than not, the experts on this site, such as Hippocrates, can help by using technical dificiencies in the process to help succedssfully overturn a PCN. What may appear to be a standard load of garbage text to you, often contains fatal errors giving you a lifeline to avoid paying the PCN.
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@Hippocrates, I am sorry but I did not get you there. 2nd page of?
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GSV isn't up to date, so you may want to go and get some contemporaneous photos to support your case, but from what's currently on GSV I reckon you've got an argument for insufficient signage on the approach to the roundabout.
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2nd page please.
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I was issued a PCN by the London Borough of Bexley for an alleged moving contravention - I entered a bus/cycle only exit from a roundabout in Townley Road, Bexley at 00:28 hours.
I was unfamiliar with the area and I realized that I was entering a bus/cycle only exit from a roundabout only on reaching the exit. I tried to reverse out as it was initially safe to do so however a bus came flashing at me and I had no choice but to enter the particular exit. I was not expecting a roundabout to have a bus only entry as I was concentrating on entering and exiting the roundabout in a safe manner. The signs were only right at the exit and the timing of the night did not help me either to spot the sign beforehand, by the time I spotted the sign, I had committed to taking the exit. It was a wrong turn that I took as I had to take another exit and not this one. Do I stand a chance if I appeal this PCN?
(https://imgur.com/a/Z2dCAcF)
(https://maps.app.goo.gl/3o8UXaT78TvUx3767)
I hope you can access these links which I have pasted here which are the images, videos and the Google maps link.