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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: BusterKerouac96 on October 20, 2023, 07:36:34 pm

Title: Re: PCN while in a parking space
Post by: BusterKerouac96 on November 07, 2023, 07:40:05 am
Just to let you know that Trafford MBC have now withdrawn the PCN following my appeal.
Thank you all for your help, once again!
Title: Re: PCN while in a parking space
Post by: cp8759 on October 22, 2023, 09:52:16 pm
Settings things out at this stage would have zero impact on the likelihood of you getting costs: to get costs the council would have to be wholly unreasonable. If the council is just unreasonable, or even very unreasonable, that is not enough.

That being said, if this goes to the tribunal I'm happy to represent you, so you won't need to do much.
Title: Re: PCN while in a parking space
Post by: BusterKerouac96 on October 22, 2023, 09:47:45 pm
Great, thanks.
Just one other thing - I am now self-employed and know from bitter experience just how time-consuming it can be to take a case to a parking tribunal. I know parking tribunals rarely award costs, but wondered whether it is worth establishing from the outset that I want to charge for my time, as it would eat into my hours of employment.
Title: Re: PCN while in a parking space
Post by: cp8759 on October 22, 2023, 09:39:09 pm
You can remove the reference to the Road Traffic Regulations Act of 1984, that's not really needed (a highway authority should know this already).

Also LATOR is shorthand we use, but you should write it out in full as The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996. In the second reference, you can shorten it to "the 1996 regulations".

Other than that I think you've good to go.
Title: Re: PCN while in a parking space
Post by: BusterKerouac96 on October 22, 2023, 09:26:02 pm
I knocked this draft out for your perusal:
Here is my draft:
I wish to appeal this PCN on the basis that I fully believed I was in a designated, and clearly delineated parking space.
I have been parking in the car parking spaces on Elevator Road for over a year, and those spaces have been marked for at least 15 years, as evidenced by Google Street View from 2008.
I have always considered these spaces to be legitimate parking spaces, delineated by a painted broken line, as can clearly be seen in the photos you have submitted as evidence.
The extension of the double yellow lines on this road appeared around three weeks ago, and extend so far as to run alongside the last of the parking spaces on this row, in which I parked on the day in question.
I noticed the double yellow lines, but thought that the fact the parking space was still clearly marked, and had not been erased, meant it was still a legitimate space. I would not have parked there otherwise.
I refer you to LATOR 18 (1 c) which states “in a case where the order revokes, amends or alters the application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong positions.”

Further to this, I refer you to the Road Traffic Regulations Act of 1984 which states: “(1)In this Act “traffic sign” means any object or device (whether fixed or portable) for conveying, to traffic on roads or any specified class of traffic, warnings, information, requirements, restrictions or prohibitions of any description—
(a)specified by regulations made by the relevant authority, or
(b)authorised by the relevant authority,
and any line or mark on a road for so conveying such warnings, information, requirements, restrictions or prohibitions.”

Given this, it was incumbent on Trafford MBC to ensure that the delineated parking space was erased at the same time as the double yellow lines were marked to, as LATOR states “avoid confusion”.
Title: Re: PCN while in a parking space
Post by: BusterKerouac96 on October 22, 2023, 08:54:23 pm
Thanks for this. I won a previous tribunal as the council had not removed the markings delineating car parking bays after they had changed the bay to a coach parking bay, on this very basis.
I’ll draft something up asap and stick it on here for your perusal.
Title: Re: PCN while in a parking space
Post by: cp8759 on October 22, 2023, 04:34:09 pm
Quote from: H C Andersen on October 21, 2023, 08:47:14 pm
Why are these markings 'traffic signs'?
Section 64(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/64):

(1)In this Act “traffic sign” means any object or device (whether fixed or portable) for conveying, to traffic on roads or any specified class of traffic, warnings, information, requirements, restrictions or prohibitions of any description—
(a)specified by regulations made by the relevant authority, or
(b)authorised by the relevant authority,
and any line or mark on a road for so conveying such warnings, information, requirements, restrictions or prohibitions.
Title: Re: PCN while in a parking space
Post by: H C Andersen on October 21, 2023, 08:47:14 pm
Why are these markings 'traffic signs'?

There aren't any parking place signs or footway parking signs with an associated plate in situ either now or apparently in GSV history.

They are markings of some sort, but IMO the OP should aim to discover what, why, by whom etc.

Even if footway parking, the presence of DYL is not contradictory as such because a driver would be entitled to park on the footway if engaged in an exempt activity e.g. assisted boarding, displaying BB, loading etc. But the OP isn't claiming any of these. I wouldn't risk adjudication without knowing more from the council.
Title: Re: PCN while in a parking space
Post by: cp8759 on October 21, 2023, 06:26:03 pm
The back of the ticket has an 0845 number, which is relevant based on Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=11TEzgfHFInCTo-JTFFtWJ8pbIXnMvJCd).

Council photos:

(https://i.imgur.com/3cmVc8S.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/VCdNvZf.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZDpnuWR.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/oS7MqE7.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/oS7MqE7.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/b34Ctur.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/vXwoJlU.jpg)

Quote from: BusterKerouac96 on October 20, 2023, 07:36:34 pm
I can’t imagine anyone else taking the time and expense to mark out parking spaces, but if they deny responsibility I wonder whether they have the responsibility for markings made by others on their highways.
It is possible local businesses might have done so, but they've been marked for a lot longer than a year, they're clearly visible in the GSV from 2008: https://maps.app.goo.gl/F37VdueMtg3LFzkK6

LATOR 18 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18) says (my bold):


Traffic signs
18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—
(a) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;
(b) the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force; and
(c) in a case where the order revokes, amends or alters the application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong positions.

Ergo the council was duty-bound to remove any ambiguous bay markings, whether officially sanctioned or not, to avoid confusion to road users. The council has defaulted on that duty, ergo the contravention did not occur.

Try writing up a draft representation based on the above, post the draft on here and we'll tidy it up for you.
Title: Re: PCN while in a parking space
Post by: BusterKerouac96 on October 21, 2023, 12:20:21 pm
Thanks for that.
There were no more pages - just the notes on the back of the ticket, as attached

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN while in a parking space
Post by: Incandescent on October 20, 2023, 09:59:28 pm
Quote
But surely if the council has designated that as a parking space, they have sent out conflicting messages.
Well, quite possibly, although the lack of a sign controlling the bay is against this, but there are indeed other examples of barminess on the same street: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4v1MkBCBE5yfrj2x6
Looks like a bay, doesn't it. However the DYLs bar parking here.

Looking at the earliest GSV view, (2008), the bays are very clearly marked, yet there is no controlling sign. Councils can be very dozy on these sort of things, so you could win at an adjudication, but would have to risk the full PCN penalty to do so. It is almost certain that the council will not give way. They'll just tell you you were by the double-yellow lines. Like so many motorists we see on here, there is general ignorance of what yellow lines cover on a road.

Anyway, see what the others say as I may be wrong, but don't miss any deadlines on the PCN.

BTW, can you please post up all pages of the PCN, so we can check for fatal errors.
Title: Re: PCN while in a parking space
Post by: BusterKerouac96 on October 20, 2023, 08:47:30 pm
But surely if the council has designated that as a parking space, they have sent out conflicting messages. Until now, I thought double yellow lines applied only to the road - although I realise that if this had been a normal pedestrian pavement, it would be unacceptable to park there.
When I won at a tribunal a few years ago, I won on the basis that, although I was parked in a bay intended only for coaches visiting a nearby museum, the fact that the council had not erased the old car parking delineation had meant it was not clear.
This, to me, is equally conflicted. They should have erased the parking space markings, surely?
Title: Re: PCN while in a parking space
Post by: Incandescent on October 20, 2023, 08:04:18 pm
Glad to see you've moved to here !

Whilst I see some markings, if there is no sign governing the bay, then the double-yellow lines trump the bay markings.  Yellow lines apply to the whole road including verges and footways. There are two exemptions, (1) loading/unloading, and (2) boarding/alighting passengers, neither of which would seem to apply to your situation.
The cars that didn't get PCNs were not adjacent to the DYLs, only your car, hence only you got a PCN.

Double-yellows need no sign, by the way, as they apply 24x7.

There will be a new traffic order to establish and define the double-yellows. The previous order should also have the bays you used defined.

Title: PCN while in a parking space
Post by: BusterKerouac96 on October 20, 2023, 07:36:34 pm
Hello
You helped me successfully fight a PCN at tribunal a few years ago and I need your help again, please!

I was today given a PCN, code 01, for parking “on a restricted street during prescribed hours”, whilst in what I took to be a roadside parking bay on Elevator Road, Stretford, issued by Trafford MBC.
PCN here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/199369611@N07/53272620708/in/dateposted-public/

This is a road in an industrial area where a few weeks ago fresh double yellow lines were added to further restrict on-road parking.
For about a year I have been parking in apparent parking spaces delineated by broken lines painted on the “pavement” (see photos).
The new double yellow lines are not adjacent to the parking spaces, other than the last one on the row, in which I parked, as in the photos here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/199369611@N07/53271444812/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/199369611@N07/53272337536/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/199369611@N07/53272620828/in/dateposted-public/

The problem is that I can’t be sure that it was Trafford MBC who marked out the parking spaces.
If they have, they have no case as I was parking in a space designated by them
I can’t imagine anyone else taking the time and expense to mark out parking spaces, but if they deny responsibility I wonder whether they have the responsibility for markings made by others on their highways. The spaces have been marked for at least a year, the time in which I have been parking there.
None of the other cars in the parking spaces had tickets, which indicates they were deemed to be legally parked despite being on the “pavement”.
Here’s the Google map link, on which you can clearly see the parking spaces marked
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QMdFQ2WEteRgkKjW7?g_st=ic


Forgive me if I have done this wrong, I’ve never used Flickr before