Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: beansprout on July 31, 2025, 10:57:07 am

Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: b789 on October 15, 2025, 01:10:04 am
It's a win. The grammar in that notice shows you the level of intellectual malnourishment you are dealing with here.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on October 14, 2025, 11:34:40 pm
Had no further communication with them since that email and just got a message from POPLA saying that it's been withdrawn

Quote
The operator has contacted us and told us that they have withdrawn your appeal.

If you have already paid your parking charge, this is the reason your appeal will have been withdrawn. Unfortunately, you cannot pay your parking charge and appeal, which means that POPLA’s involvement in your appeal has ended. You will not be able to request a refund of the amount paid in order to resubmit your appeal to us.

If you have not paid your parking charge, the operator has reviewed your appeal and chosen to cancel the parking charge. As the operator has withdrawn your appeal, POPLA’s involvement has now ended and you do not need to take any further action.

Kind regards

POPLA Team

Strange way to word it.. "they have withdrawn your appeal"..

Also kind of ridiculous that they can wait for you to go through all the work of writing an appeal and then withdrawn their PCN with no penalty, but as the person challenging, you have to engage with the process every step of the way or else lose your right to appeal.

Almost disappointed that nobody's even going to read the appeal (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji28.png)
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: b789 on October 09, 2025, 12:42:15 pm
Respond to the housing association with the following:

Quote
Subject: Re: PCN – Ongoing POPLA Appeal

Dear [Housing Officer's Name],

The suggestion that I should withdraw a live POPLA appeal in order for your contractor to “consider” cancellation is as absurd as it is inappropriate.

Let me be clear:

•The appeal stands.
•POPLA is the correct and only relevant channel at this point.
•If your agent now wishes to concede, they are free to inform POPLA accordingly.

 That is how the process works. No further nonsense is required from me.

Any attempt to pressure or induce a withdrawal is not only procedurally defective but legally reckless. You, as the principal, remain jointly and severally liable for the conduct of your appointed contractor.

If this PCN is not withdrawn, and your agent continues to pursue it despite having no legal standing to do so, the record of this correspondence will be used as evidence of unreasonable and obstructive behaviour.

I trust that brings this ridiculous suggestion to a close.

Yours sincerely,


[Your Full Name]
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: jfollows on October 09, 2025, 12:23:22 pm
Yes.
It seems to me that P4 Parking had the opportunity to drop this much earlier, but decided that it would play the odds of denying your appeal and having you pay up.

Now that you’ve got a much better POPLA appeal they realise they’re going to lose and have to pay a fee to POPLA (£27.50 unless it’s increased again since 2023).

So if you withdraw your appeal they won’t have to pay the fee.

But, firstly, I wouldn’t trust them and, secondly, its a problem of their own making.

Even if POPLA finds against you, it’s still not binding and most courts will uphold your arguments, which will cost you some effort but cost P4 Parking more.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on October 09, 2025, 12:10:18 pm
Housing association finally responded to my request to help with cancelling the PCN..

Quote
Hi xxxxx

Our car park management company has responded.

They have advised that you have submitted an appeal to the independent regulator, POPLA and advice that you withdraw the appeal with POPLA.  Then send them confirmation that the case has been withdrawn, and they we will proceed with cancelling the parking charge.

Umm.. sounds like a trap to me  :D
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on September 29, 2025, 09:51:07 pm
Ok, after spending far to much time labouring over it, appeal has now been submitted.

Thanks again for all your help, will update with outcome.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: b789 on September 29, 2025, 11:27:33 am
For point 3 of your appeal, you may want to reference the persuasive appellate decision in Brennan v Premier Parking Solutions (2023) (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1b9rpna57dutsetdgwi60/Brennan-v-Premier-Parking-Plymouth-CC-Judgment-20230821-V-Final_-14.pdf?rlkey=203u1fav6fve811lz8cm8wpwx&st=0tpfeya0&dl=0) to the OPLA assessor which definitively pointed out that a single timestamp is not a "period of parking" so, does not comply with the requirements of PoFA.

As for the LoA, that should be good to go, but I've tweaked is slightly:

Quote
[Father’s Full Name]
[Full Address]

[Date]

Subject: Confirmation of Residency and Parking Rights – [Your Full Name], [Vehicle Registration]

To Whom It May Concern,

I am the leaseholder of the property at [full address] and confirm that my son, [Your Full Name], resides at this address with my full permission.

I also confirm that he is entitled to park the vehicle with registration [VRN] on the premises in accordance with the terms of my lease.

The lease permits residents to use the common parts, including access roads and parking areas, for their intended purposes. It contains no requirement for permits, nor does it authorise third-party enforcement. I have not consented to the imposition of any parking enforcement scheme, nor agreed to any lease variation enabling third-party operators such as P4Parking (UK) Ltd to issue parking charges to authorised residents.

This letter is provided in support of a POPLA appeal relating to PCN reference: [insert PCN number].

Yours faithfully,

[Full name]
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on September 29, 2025, 10:52:43 am
Also, how's this as a letter to get my father to sign?

[Father's Full Name]
[Father's Address]
[Date]

Subject: Confirmation of Residency and Parking Rights at [Your Address]

To Whom It May Concern,

I, [name], am the leaseholder of the property located at [Your Address].

I am writing to confirm that [Your Name] is my son and resides at the above address with my full permission.

Furthermore, I confirm that as a resident, [Your Name] is entitled to park their vehicle, registration number [Vehicle Registration Number], at the property in accordance with the terms of my lease.

The lease grants residents the right to use the common areas for their intended purposes, which includes parking. I have not at any point consented to or authorised the parking enforcement scheme managed by P4Parking (UK) Ltd, nor have I agreed to any variation of the lease that would permit a third party to issue penalty charges to my permitted residents.

This letter is provided to support the POPLA appeal against Parking Charge Notice (PCN) Reference: [...].

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on September 29, 2025, 02:12:42 am
From looking at the PoFA it doesn't seem like there is a requirement that the NtK be issued by the creditor, only that it states who the creditor is? I left that out for now, but do let me know if I misunderstood.

I instead added failure to specify period of parking, and inflated demand amount in the NtK as PoFA non-compliance reasons.

Also.. do they have to provide evidence with the NtK, and would the lack of any such evidence render it non-compliant?

This is what I have drafted so far..

POPLA APPEAL


POPLA Verification Code: ...
Parking Charge Notice (PCN) Reference: ...
Vehicle Registration Number: ...
Date of Alleged Contravention: ...
Parking Operator: P4Parking (UK) Ltd ("the Operator")


Grounds for Appeal:
This appeal is made on the following independent grounds, any one of which is sufficient to cancel the PCN:
    1. Lack of Landowner Authority: The Operator’s authority cannot override a resident's pre-existing rights granted by lease.
    2. Primacy of the Lease: The lease is the supreme legal instrument governing parking rights and does not permit the issuance of a penalty charge for the alleged conduct.
    3. No Keeper Liability under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA): Non-Compliant Notice to Keeper
        a.  Failure to specify the period of parking.
        b.  The amount demanded in the NtK exceeds that permitted under Schedule 4 of PoFA 2012.
    4. Removal of signage preventing a fair appeal: The keeper has been unable to mount a full appeal as evidence was removed before notice was received.


1 & 2. Lack of Landowner Authority & Primacy of the Lease
The Operator’s claim is predicated on authority it does not possess. The landowner, Southern Housing, cannot grant authority to a third party that it does not hold itself—namely, the power to penalise a resident for exercising a right already conferred by a legally binding lease.

The lease grants the resident the right "to use the Common Parts for the purposes for which they were designed or intended," with no clause requiring permit display or authorising financial penalties for parking.

Any contract between the Operator and the landowner is subordinate to this lease. Under the principle of non-derogation from grant, the landowner cannot delegate powers that diminish leaseholder rights. The Operator’s enforcement of a permit scheme not contained within the lease interferes with the resident's right to quiet enjoyment and is ultra vires.

The judgment in Saeed v Plustrade Ltd [EWCA Civ 2011] affirms that a landlord cannot regulate in a way that extinguishes a granted right.

Please find attached a copy of the lease, and a signed letter from my father Paul Charman, the leaseholder, confirming that I am allowed to live at the property and park the vehicle there, and that he did not consent to third-party parking enforcement.



3. No Keeper Liability under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA)

a) Failure to specify the period of parking
Paragraph 9(2)(a) of Schedule 4 mandates that a compliant Notice to Keeper must "specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates."
The Notice to Keeper issued by the Operator only states a single "parking charge date & time." This is not a "period." A period, by definition, has a duration with a start and an end. A single point in time fails to establish the duration of parking for which the alleged contravention occurred.
As the Operator has failed to meet this mandatory condition of PoFA, the Notice to Keeper is invalid.

b) Inflated Sum Demanded in Notice to Keeper
The Notice to Keeper is invalid as it demands a sum exceeding that permitted by PoFA 2012. The original charge was £100, but the Notice to Keeper demands £125.

Schedule 4, paragraph 4(5) of PoFA 2012 states:

"The maximum sum which may be recovered from the keeper by virtue of the right conferred by this paragraph is the amount specified in the notice to driver..."

By demanding more than the original charge, the Operator has failed to comply with PoFA 2012, rendering the Notice to Keeper non-compliant and thus the keeper cannot be held liable.



4. Removal of signage preventing a fair appeal
A fair appeal has been made impossible due to the removal of signage before the Notice to Keeper was received:
• Evidence Removed: On 29/07/2025, all P4Parking signage was permanently removed from the site.
• Notice Issued Post-Removal: The Notice to Keeper was received on 08/08/2025, ten days after the signage—the basis of the alleged contract—was removed.

This sequence prejudiced the keeper’s position. It is impossible to inspect or photograph the signage to challenge its adequacy, placement, or compliance with the BPA Code of Practice. This obstructs the right to a fair appeal and is further grounds for the PCN to be cancelled.


Conclusion
The PCN is unenforceable for multiple reasons:
• The Operator acted without authority, violating the primacy of the resident's lease.
• Clear defects under PoFA 2012 regarding the NtK issuer and the sum demanded.
• Procedural unfairness preventing a fair defence.

For all these reasons I respectfully request that this appeal be allowed.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: jfollows on September 27, 2025, 01:31:53 pm
You actually have 33 days to submit an appeal to POPLA, but they don’t tell you this.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: b789 on September 27, 2025, 01:23:52 pm
The insurance document proves nothing. My own insurance gives me third party insurance and allows me to drive any other vehicle with the owners permission. Anyone can drive any other vehicle with the owners permission as long as they have a minimum of third party cover for any vehicle.

I repeat, DO NOT send any copies of insurance documents. It is irrelevant to the matter in hand. It proves nothing. All you are doing is responding as the Keeper. The burden of proof is on the operator to show that the Keeper was the driver and they cannot do that unless the Keeper blabs that fact to them.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on September 27, 2025, 01:19:58 pm
Thanks you so much! Will get something drafted and post here.

Is insurance information really an issue? I understand the importance of not revealing the driver at the time of the alleged whatever you want to call it, but an insurance document surely just shows that certain people are allowed to drive the vehicle. It would prove that my father has an "interest" in the vehicle and therefor it would be reasonable for it to be parked there under the terms of his lease.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: b789 on September 27, 2025, 12:56:36 pm
If the appeal rejection letter was issued on 1st September, then your POPLA code expires 33 days later, which would be 4th October. They allow 5 days for service (28 + 5 = 33 days). So you still have time to submit the appeal.

Use the original appeal as your primary structure. Your POPLA appeal should include:

• Lack of landowner authority (no evidence that P4 can override lease rights)
• Lease takes precedence (no permit or enforcement clause in lease)
• No keeper liability under PoFA (if NtK was issued by TNC, a third party)
• Signage no longer visible at the site (you couldn’t check what was there)
• Potential unfairness due to changed signage (unbalanced and prejudicial process)

For evidence:

• Include a copy of the lease (even if it doesn’t show your father’s name)
• Include a signed letter from your father confirming:

1. He is the leaseholder
2. You are allowed to live there and park the vehicle
3. He did not consent to third-party parking enforcement

DO NOT include insurance documents or anything that risks revealing who was driving.

The fact that signage was replaced is relevant. Say that by the time you received the NtK, the signs had already changed, so you were unable to gather any contemporaneous evidence. Emphasise that this makes the process unfair, as only the operator has access to the original signage and you have no way to verify the alleged terms.

Show us your POPLA appeal before you send it.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on September 27, 2025, 12:25:55 pm
Also, is the fact that the signage had been removed and replaced with signage from a new parking company by the time I received the NtK itself a ground for appeal? How am I supposed to gather evidence if it no longer exists to be photographed? It makes the process unfair and one-sided.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on September 27, 2025, 12:14:15 pm
Ok, trying to get the property management company to contact p4parking to cancel the final ticket has been like pulling teeth, so seeing as tomorrow is the last day for me to submit a POPLA appeal (I think that's right? Issued on the 1st, 28 days makes 28th the final day?).. looking like I'm going to have to send something.

Should my appeal be pretty much the points suggested here? https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/p4parking-southern-housing-private-estate-parking-pcns-after-sippi-transition-co/msg84814/#msg84814

In terms of evidence, will I have to try and dig out evidence of transfer of lease, or would it be enough to just send the lease itself which doesn't have my father's name? Should I add a signed letter from my father saying that it is a shared vehicle? Or do I maybe just attach a copy of the car insurance with the estate address and his name listed as named driver?
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on September 01, 2025, 11:29:25 am
Ok, POPLA code received..

https://ibb.co/album/5kYQ7C

Was curious to see what the photos showed seeing as the 2nd PCN was never found on the windscreen, can definitely see on days 2 and 3, there were only 2 PCNs, but obviously hard to tell if one was pulled off the windscreen by someone, or if the 2rd pcn was never actually placed there. They do seem remarkably similarly positioned (text upside down), but the PCN inside the envelope seems slightly differently positioned, so I'm guessing it went missing at some point between days 2 and 3

(https://i.ibb.co/N6Z23tn1/image.png) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/t6cb814/image.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on August 11, 2025, 06:07:21 pm
I've sent an email to complaints@p4parking.co.uk with b789's suggested appeal.

The auto-reply says:

Quote
An appeal can be lodged online at https://p4parking.zatappeal.com/ or by post to P4Parking (UK) Ltd., Po Box 71107, London, SE18 9LB (for Scotland Appeals: P4Parking (UK) Ltd., Po Box 15688, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH48 9BS) only within 28 days from the date of the notice to driver.

Sounds like they're just going to say it's too late to appeal and wont issue a POPLA code?
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: DWMB2 on August 11, 2025, 01:29:16 pm
8086309 is with debt collectors.
They say this as if this means it is in the lap of the gods and entirely outside of their control - they're the ones who have engaged said debt collectors!
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on August 11, 2025, 01:25:59 pm
Ok, well good news on the first 2 PCNs, got confirmation today that Southern Housing / p4parking have cancelled them

Quote
Thank you for your email and enquiry.

I can confirm 8086329 & 8084695 are both cancelled.

8086309 is with debt collectors.

Kind Regards,
p4parking

TNC say that p4parking only accept appeals by post at this stage?
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: H C Andersen on August 09, 2025, 01:25:31 pm
Thanks for clarifying, I said it's confusing!

So OP, you can act in your own name as regards parking charges but only your father may act internally with Southern Housing. So when you refer to 'attempts were made to contact Southern Housing', by whom? Similarly, any application for a permit, even for purely administrative purposes, doesn't lie with you.



Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: b789 on August 09, 2025, 12:14:02 pm
b789, how does the situation change regarding the lease agreement considering that it is my father that owns the lease, I live with him, and I am the registered keeper of the car. My father is named on the car insurance and the digital permit for the car is in his name.

The OP is the RK. The notices are addressed to them.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: H C Andersen on August 09, 2025, 11:47:51 am
OP, YOU don't send anything in your name in respect of this NTK because it's not addressed to you.

I'll keep on this point and YOU must keep this in mind: the more you write here and on your own behalf the more likely it is that YOU will identify the driver, and if you do then if matters are taken to court your main defence in law as regards PoFA has gone.

The addressee may authorise you to act on their behalf (I think on a case-by-case basis). Once you've produced a template letter e.g. I hereby authorise [your name  ] to act on my behalf as registered keeper of VRM ***** and leaseholder of [property] in all matters pertaining to your NTD/NTK no. ******, dated *******.

Signed********

Then you may engage with whoever the notice requires and include the authorisation.

Normal forum rules are one thread per notice and this one now has 2 with possibly more to follow. If this remains then you'll have to be clear which is which. You'll need something because so far as far as the 'creditor' is concerned you've identified yourself as being the keeper(for the NTD) and now someone authorised by the keeper.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: b789 on August 09, 2025, 08:21:29 am
Send it to both P4 and TNC. One of them ought to provide you with a POPLA code when they automatically reject any initial appeal.

Don't waste money on postage. Respond by email if possible, CC'ing yourself into any correspondence or you can use their web portal if they have one. Under no circumstances select any option that admits liability. You are ONLY appealing as the Keeper.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on August 08, 2025, 07:07:23 pm
Super grateful as always b789

Any thoughts on who I should be sending that reply to and via what medium? Is it an informal appeal to p4parking expecting a POPLA code? I'm guessing I'd have to send that by post.. or could I just chuck it at sales@p4parking.co.uk do you think?
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: b789 on August 08, 2025, 06:07:01 pm
Only the “Creditor” can issue a PoFA-compliant Notice to Keeper (NtK). This is a requirement under Paragraph 8(2) of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, which states that the notice must be given by or on behalf of the creditor.

In this case, the named Creditor is P4Parking (UK) Ltd, but the NtK was issued by TNC Parking Services, which is a third-party debt collector and not the Creditor. Although the notice identifies the Creditor and includes the required content, it was issued in the name of TNC, not P4Parking.

Because TNC is not the Creditor and has no statutory authority under PoFA to issue the notice, the NtK is not valid for the purposes of holding the keeper liable. Even if the timing and content were otherwise correct, only the Creditor can issue a valid PoFA notice. Keeper liability does not apply.

TNC is ONLY allowed to lawfully engage in debt recovery for parking charges. They can potentially request keeper data as an authorised agent of a BPA member for the narrow purpose of recovering outstanding charges.

However, because they're not an operator, they are not entitled to issue a PoFA-compliant Notice to Keeper under Paragraph 8 Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act. Only BPA-approved operators, like P4Parking, can issue such notices.

Unity t/a TNC is limited to debt collection—they lack enforcement powers. They are likely authorised under P4Parking’s BPA AOS membership only to request keeper data for debt purposes, not to issue NtKs or notices under PoFA.

Their use of the BPA roundel may be permissible, but only when acting strictly within the scope of debt recovery. If they present as an operator or issue legal notices like an NtK, that exceeds the permitted role.

In short: TNC may access data for debt recovery, as an agent of the operator, but cannot issue Notices to Keeper or enforce parking charges under PoFA.

SO, to summarise your legal position:

• The Keeper (you) is not the leaseholder, but the vehicle is associated with the leaseholder (your father), and he holds parking rights under the lease.
• There is no express requirement in the lease for a permit or for participation in any scheme operated by P4Parking.
• TNC is not the parking operator, nor are they legally permitted to issue PoFA-compliant NtKs.
• No valid NtD was found on the vehicle, and PoFA Paragraph 9 applies if no NtD was served — but the notice received is based on Paragraph 8, indicating that an NtD allegedly was served.
• Since no driver has been identified, and keeper liability under PoFA is not established, no liability can be enforced against the Keeper.

You should appeal with the following:

Quote
Subject: Re: Notice to Keeper – PCN [insert reference number] – Vehicle Registration: [XXXXXXX]
Dear Sir/Madam,

I write as the Registered Keeper in response to your Notice to Keeper dated [insert date].

I deny any liability for this charge. This is not a valid Notice to Keeper under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) for the following reasons:

1. The notice was issued by TNC Parking Services, not the Creditor. Only the Creditor named in the notice (P4Parking UK Ltd) may issue a PoFA-compliant NtK. TNC, being a third-party debt collector and not a party to the alleged contract, lacks standing to pursue keeper liability.

2.You rely on Paragraph 8 of Schedule 4 of PoFA, which only applies where a valid Notice to Driver (NtD) was affixed to the vehicle. I put you to strict proof that such a notice was served in compliance with PoFA requirements. Absent such proof, your reliance on Paragraph 8 is misconceived, and the notice is not valid for the purpose of establishing keeper liability.

3. I am a resident of the estate and my father is the leaseholder. He holds a lease that makes no mention of any permit requirement, enforcement scheme, or delegation of authority to third parties such as P4Parking. There is no obligation in the lease to display a permit, and no contractual relationship exists between the parties and P4Parking.

4. I am a resident of the estate, and the leaseholder has authorised the vehicle to be parked at the premises. The lease contains no requirement to display a permit and confers no authority for third-party enforcement. There is no contractual relationship between the leaseholder or any authorised resident and P4Parking, and no lawful basis for enforcing terms contrary to the lease.

5. Your continued pursuit of this charge may constitute a breach of the UK General Data Protection Regulation (UK GDPR). You are not entitled to process my personal data in the absence of lawful basis under either PoFA or a legitimate contractual framework. Misuse of DVLA data and false claims of keeper liability will be referred to the Information Commissioner’s Office and DVLA.

Accordingly, you must now:

• Cancel this charge in full,
• Cease processing my data for this or any related matter,
• Confirm that no further correspondence will be sent regarding this charge.

Failure to do so may result in a formal complaint to the DVLA and the ICO, as well as potential legal action for misuse of personal data.

Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on August 08, 2025, 04:16:06 pm
So I just received an NtK in the post, but this relates to a _third_ PCN (from the 2nd, a day between the other two on 1st and 3rd), one for which there was never even a notice on the windscreen. I guess the charitable explanation would be a strong gust of wind or a mischievous magpie..

I think I'm outside of the informal appeal window? The appeals portal doesn't let me appeal. It seems insane that they can send the NtK after the appeals window has closed, as if a ticket on a windscreen is a reliable way to inform someone of a parking charge..

Is there anything that can be done with this one?


Oh wait my bad, the 28 day appeals window should open again from the date of the NtK right? Am I going to have to waste a stamp on these cowboys?

Also what on earth are they doing bumping the charge up by £25 in the NtK? That's goes against PoFA right?

(https://i.ibb.co/R4Gpx4ZD/Whats-App-Image-2025-08-08-at-14-47-43.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5xXWNxtR)
(https://i.ibb.co/TZjd64x/Whats-App-Image-2025-08-08-at-14-47-43-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pgV5cfB)
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: b789 on August 01, 2025, 04:54:18 pm
The lease does not mention any requirement for permits—physical or electronic—for use of the car parking spaces. That is not merely an implication; it is a legal fact. Under property law:

• What is not expressly required in the lease cannot be imposed unilaterally.
• Any attempt to enforce a permit scheme without leaseholder consent or lease amendment is void and unenforceable.

The leaseholder’s right to use the car parking spaces is governed solely by the lease terms. The only obligation is to keep the spaces clear of obstructions and unroadworthy vehicles.

As confirmed by legal commentary on leaseholder parking rights:

"Car parking rights granted in a lease may include exclusive possession or a general right to park. If the lease does not specify a permit requirement, none can be imposed without formal amendment or agreement".

So rather than saying the clause "implies" permission, the stronger and more accurate position is:

The lease grants use of the car parking spaces and contains no clause requiring permits. Therefore, any permit scheme is legally irrelevant to leaseholders and unenforceable against them.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on August 01, 2025, 12:23:06 pm
b789, how does the situation change regarding the lease agreement considering that it is my father that owns the lease, I live with him, and I am the registered keeper of the car. My father is named on the car insurance and the digital permit for the car is in his name.

Do I need to somehow argue that the rights provided by the lease extend to me? How would that be done without talking about who the driver was? Would I need to include some kind of written statement from my father saying that he uses the vehicle or gives it permission to be parked there, or is his inclusion on the insurance / digital parking permit in his name sufficient?
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on August 01, 2025, 11:32:02 am
Thank you b789!

The paper permits required a fee to be paid (I've never owned one), but the new digital permits were offered for free.

The only mention of parking in the lease is:

Quote
Not to obstruct or damage any part of the Building or access to or from the Building
or roads and to keep the roads, the accesses and car parking spaces clear of
unroadworthy or untaxed vehicles and other obstructions.

So that implies permission to use the car parking spaces with no requirement for permits.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: b789 on August 01, 2025, 11:01:23 am
Are you sure that there's NO mention of parking anywhere in your lease? Did you pay for the electronic permit? There is no requirement for a permit in your lease and if you have paid for it, you should demand your money back. If they want to issue permits for free, so that they can whitelist your vehicle, then that is OK and you are only doing so as a courtesy, not a requirement.

Your lease is the governing document. If it makes no mention of parking rights, enforcement, or delegation to third parties like P4 or any other third party company, then no such authority exists.

The definition of “Common Parts” in your lease includes access ways and forecourts, but does not confer any right to regulate or restrict parking, nor does it mention enforcement mechanisms or third-party control. P4’s involvement is ultra vires—beyond the powers granted by the lease. Their actions are not legally supported unless the lease was formally amended or a supplemental deed was executed. Can you confirm this has not occurred.

Under English property law, particularly the principle of derogation from grant, a landlord or their agent cannot take away rights that have been granted by the lease. If leaseholders have historically parked in common areas without restriction, and the lease does not prohibit it, then imposing penalties or enforcement constitutes a material interference with quiet enjoyment and use.

The case of Saeed v Plustrade Ltd confirms that landlords cannot extinguish parking rights arbitrarily—they may regulate, but not revoke without legal basis. TheLandlord and Tenant Act 1985 requires landlords to act reasonably and transparently in managing common parts and service charges.

Introducing a third-party enforcement firm without consultation or lease authority breaches the duty to manage the property in accordance with the lease and statutory obligations. P4 is unregulated and acting vexatiously, therefore this also breaches consumer protection laws and data protection regulations if they’re issuing notices or collecting personal data without lawful basis.

So, P4 Parking is a contractor, not a party to the lease. Their authority is strictly limited to what the landlord or management company delegates—and that delegation cannot override leaseholder rights.

If the leaseholder has a right to park (whether exclusive, general, or implied through historic use), P4 must cancel any PCN issued to a vehicle that is confirmed to belong to or be authorised by a leaseholder. Enforcement against third-party vehicles (unauthorised visitors, trespassers, etc.) may be within P4’s remit, but once notified that a vehicle is linked to a leaseholder, continued enforcement becomes unlawful.

If the management company refused to get the PCNs cancelled, then I suggest you send the following to them:

Quote
Subject: Immediate Cancellation of PCNs and Cessation of Unlawful Enforcement Against Leaseholder Vehicles

Your refusal to intervene in the unlawful issuance of PCNs by P4 Parking is a dereliction of duty and a breach of both contractual and statutory obligations. Let me make this unequivocally clear:

There is no legal requirement for a leaseholder to display a permit. The lease contains no clause mandating participation in any permit scheme—physical or electronic. Any such scheme is entirely extraneous to the lease and cannot override the leaseholder’s rights.

P4 Parking’s authority may be limited to managing unauthorised vehicles. Once notified that a vehicle belongs to or is authorised by a leaseholder, any PCN must be cancelled immediately. Continued enforcement is unlawful and constitutes:

• Derogation from grant, interfering with the leaseholder’s right to quiet enjoyment.
• A breach of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, which requires you to manage the property in accordance with the lease and act reasonably.
• A violation of the Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Act 2024 (DMCC), which prohibits misleading and aggressive commercial practices. Issuing PCNs based on signage or permit schemes that have no contractual basis is unlawful and may expose both P4 and your company to enforcement action.

The leaseholder has applied for an electronic permit as a courtesy, not as a legal obligation. They reserve the right to withdraw from this scheme at any time without penalty or interference. Any attempt to enforce penalties based on non-display or non-participation in a voluntary scheme is legally void.

You are responsible for the conduct of your agents. If you have failed to amend the lease or consult leaseholders before introducing enforcement, you will be held accountable for any resulting legal or financial consequences.

I demand:

• Immediate written confirmation that P4 Parking has been instructed to cancel all PCNs issued to leaseholder-authorised vehicles.
• A copy of any agreement purporting to authorise P4’s involvement.
• A full explanation of why leaseholder rights were ignored and why no lease amendment or consultation was undertaken.

If this matter is not resolved within 7 days, I will escalate to the First-tier Tribunal (Property Chamber) and pursue recovery of all costs incurred due to your negligence. You are expected to act with urgency, competence, and legal compliance.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after Sippi transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on July 31, 2025, 11:56:00 pm
Ok, got my hands on the lease.

Couldn't find anything specific about parking, but it does contain this:


(https://i.ibb.co/LXRYpsfr/common-parts.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Fq4M1qL1/schedule-2.jpg)


So the lease gives me the right to use common parts, and makes no mention of parking permits.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: H C Andersen on July 31, 2025, 10:25:10 pm
POPLA has nothing to do with any specified requirements of PoFA as regards keeper liability:

7(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to driver for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.

(2)The notice must—

(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

......

(d)inform the driver of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;


The 'arrangement for the resolution of disputes' is an integral part of the CoP and includes POPLA in this instance. However, there is NO provision within the Code for 'appeals' by a keeper against a NTD to lead directly to a POPLA code because the keeper cannot be pursued other than via a NTK and a subsequent unsuccessful 'appeal'. A keeper cannot be pursued under the Code without a NTK having been issued, see Annex C: https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/NEW%20Redesigned%20Documents/sectorsingleCodeofPractice.pdf

Therefore, under the Code the only basis on which a POPLA code may be issued without a NTK is if following a NTD the 'appellant' identifies themselves as the driver - hence my question which has been answered, not by their response but by your 'appeals'. However, their response supports your position and prevents them from issuing POPLA codes.

So, when you appeal to POPLA pl just deal with the issue of the parking charge by stating clearly that you have no first-hand knowledge as to whether the driver contravened displayed conditions at the site and the assessor's decision should not dwell on this point. Your appeal is that the creditor cannot pursue the keeper for any charge, whether owing by the driver or not, because the mandatory conditions of Schedule 4 have not been met, that is to say a Notice to Keeper has not been issued.

Although the creditor's responses to your 'appeals' make clear that they are not pursuing you as the driver but as the keeper, you would none the less pre-empt any attempt by them to change horses midstream for the sake of expediency (and money, of course) by reiterating that they may not infer that you were the driver(in addition to being the keeper) because there is no lawful basis for such an assumption, irrespective of statements to the contrary in the Code.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: b789 on July 31, 2025, 06:08:31 pm
It has nothing to do what they put in their appeal rejection. It is the fact that the PCN itself, the NtD, is not PoFA compliant.

It is like pregnancy... you can't be a bit or mostly pregnant. You either are or you aren't. Likewise with PCN's... they either are PoFA compliant or they aren't. It's a binary matter.

What they put in their appeal response does not have any bearing on the law, even if they wish it did.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on July 31, 2025, 05:21:20 pm
Quote
They can say whatever they like. It doesn't alter the fact that they have not complied with the Act and therefore the Keeper cannot be liable and they have no idea who the driver is. They are not allowed to infer that the Keeper must also be the driver and that is backed up by persuasive appellate case law as in VCS v Edward (2023) [HOKF6C9C].

Oh yes I agree that what they're saying is nonsense, I was just pointing out the _lack_ of that particularly nonsense in the second rejection. I'm imagining both PCNs get looked at in complete isolation, so that second one I might not be able to appeal on PoFA grounds as they haven't said they were pursuing as keeper.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: b789 on July 31, 2025, 04:20:52 pm
However, we can confirm that the PCN has been issued in accordance with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA), and liability has been correctly transferred to the keeper under the provisions of the Act."

In their reply to the second appeal they didn't mention if they were pursuing me as keeper/driver/owner..?

They can say whatever they like. It doesn't alter the fact that they have not complied with the Act and therefore the Keeper cannot be liable and they have no idea who the driver is. They are not allowed to infer that the Keeper must also be the driver and that is backed up by persuasive appellate case law as in VCS v Edward (2023) [HOKF6C9C].

We don't need to see the whole lease, just the bits about parking. For example, if there is no mention of any requirement to display or purchase a permit, then it would mean that the management company or the landlord has breached the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 by allowing the operator to insist on a permit requirement.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on July 31, 2025, 04:08:18 pm
...If they have already rejected your appeals as the Keeper, then even if they try and issue an Notice to Keeper (NtK) within the relevant period (28 to 56 days after the alleged contravention), it is too late.

In response to my first appeal they explicitly said "we acknowledge your position as the registered keeper and your
decision not to identify the driver. However, we can confirm that the PCN has been issued in accordance with the
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA), and liability has been correctly transferred to the keeper under the
provisions of the Act."

In their reply to the second appeal they didn't mention if they were pursuing me as keeper/driver/owner..?
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on July 31, 2025, 04:03:10 pm
Thanks for the input everyone!

Yes, leaseholder. I'll dig out the lease and post here.

My appeals were some AI generated slop that I sent in a panic because of the impending discount deadline, something very close to this:

For the first appeal I sent this:
Quote
I am challenging this PCN on the basis that no liability rests with the keeper of the vehicle. I am not obliged to identify the driver of the vehicle at the time of the alleged contravention and I decline to do so. Any claim against the keeper is reliant on strict compliance with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA), which you are required to prove.

In addition, the charges should be cancelled on the following grounds:

Overriding Mitigating Circumstances (BPA Code of Practice Annex F): A new digital permit for this vehicle had been approved by the landowner, Southern Housing, prior to the dates of the alleged contraventions. A genuine and understandable error was made by the driver in not noticing the precise activation date of this new permit. Punitive enforcement in such a case is contrary to the principles of fairness outlined in the BPA's Appeals Charter and constitutes an overriding mitigating circumstance.   

No Landowner Authority to Penalise a Permitted Resident (BPA Code Clause 14): Your authority to operate is granted by the landowner, Southern Housing. This authority cannot extend to penalising a resident to whom the landowner has already granted permission to park.  The discrepancy between the landowner's approval and your enforcement system is an internal matter for you and Southern Housing to resolve, not a burden to be placed on a resident. 

Given these points, I require you to cancel both PCNs immediately. Should you reject this appeal, you must provide a valid 10-digit POPLA verification code for each PCN to allow the matter to be escalated to the independent adjudicator.

For the second appeal I felt a bit sheepish about the hardball of not identifying the driver and just sent this: (in retrospect I shouldn't have, the first appeal got them to respond with something saying they were pursuing me as keeper..)

Quote
I'm appealing the charges on the following grounds:

Overriding Mitigating Circumstances (BPA Code of Practice Annex F): A new digital permit for this vehicle had been approved by the landowner, Southern Housing, prior to the dates of the alleged contraventions. A genuine and understandable error was made by the driver in not noticing the precise activation date of this new permit. Punitive enforcement in such a case is contrary to the principles of fairness outlined in the BPA's Appeals Charter and constitutes an overriding mitigating circumstance.   

No Landowner Authority to Penalise a Permitted Resident (BPA Code Clause 14): Your authority to operate is granted by the landowner, Southern Housing. This authority cannot extend to penalising a resident to whom the landowner has already granted permission to park.  The discrepancy between the landowner's approval and your enforcement system is an internal matter for you and Southern Housing to resolve, not a burden to be placed on a resident. 

Given these points, I require you to cancel both PCNs immediately. Should you reject this appeal, you must provide a valid 10-digit POPLA verification code for each PCN to allow the matter to be escalated to the independent adjudicator.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: b789 on July 31, 2025, 03:22:41 pm
The Keeper has not identified the driver...

In the reply to my first appeal, this seems like a rather odd statement considering there hasn't been a NtK?:

"With respect to your comments regarding liability, we acknowledge your position as the registered keeper and your
decision not to identify the driver
. However, we can confirm that the PCN has been issued in accordance with the
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA), and liability has been correctly transferred to the keeper under the
provisions of the Act."
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: H C Andersen on July 31, 2025, 03:18:09 pm
OP, the key is what you wrote.

If you admitted to being the driver then b789's points about PoFA, while being correct, don't apply because this applies only if:

1)....the creditor—

(a)has the right to enforce against the driver of the vehicle the requirement to pay the unpaid parking charges; but

(b)is unable to take steps to enforce that requirement against the driver because the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver.


If you've admitted to being the driver then the 'simple' rules of contract apply
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: b789 on July 31, 2025, 03:09:09 pm
Show us everything in your lease that mentions anything about parking. What it doesn't say about parking is equally important.

They cannot claim Keeper liability if they haven't issued an NtK!

The Parking Charge Notices (PCNs) you have shown are not PoFA compliant with paragraph 7(2)(a). You should really have waited to appeal on day 27 after the issue date of the Notice to Driver (NtD) but it is what it is now. If they have already rejected your appeals as the Keeper, then even if they try and issue an Notice to Keeper (NtK) within the relevant period (28 to 56 days after the alleged contravention), it is too late.

The NtD was not PoFA compliant, failing to specify a period of parking. The contravention type requires direct observation, not inferred presence. Any NtK issued now would be procedurally invalid and statutorily non-compliant. Therefore, no keeper liability exists, and any attempt to pursue the keeper is legally baseless.

Stand your ground for now. The odds of this ever reaching a hearing incur are slim and you have a powerful defence should they be so stupid as to try and take it that far.

For now, show us what your lease says about parking. In the majority of these residential cases, the operator has no standing to override the supremacy of contract you have with your lease.

Also, do not identify the driver as their NtD's are not PoFA compliant with paragraph 7(2)(a). If you do get another one, do not appeal as the Keeper until day 27 after the date of the contravention.
Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: H C Andersen on July 31, 2025, 12:54:13 pm
+1.

And your letters to them please.



Title: Re: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: Dave65 on July 31, 2025, 11:08:01 am
Are you on a lease?
What does your lease documents say about parking a vehicle?
Title: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion
Post by: beansprout on July 31, 2025, 10:57:07 am
Estate was switching from a paper permit system to an e-permit system enforced by a new parking company.

Driver's a relatively new resident, hadn't been able to acquire a paper permit due to inefficiencies in the system, so jumped at the chance to apply for an electronic permit.

Application for electronic permit was approved on 25/06/2025, but driver didn't notice that the permit was only valid from the 27/07/2025 (the date the new Sippi run system was due to come into effect), assuming that having a parking permit application approved meant "good to go" and neglecting to read the details which did mention a "valid from" date in the future, something the driver had never come across before.

Only noticed parking charge once 2 were on the windscreen.

Informal appeal was submitted in order to extend the discount period, but unsure if this was the right thing to do.

Attempts have been made to contact Southern Housing to have the charges withdrawn but they "don't get involved in parking matters"

Would it have been better to have waited for a notice to keeper to be sent?

The other thing I'm worried about is that because the parking company never sent a notice to keeper then I wouldn't be able to challenge on POFA grounds, as all they've done is a notice to driver (?) via physical ticket on car?

In the reply to my first appeal, this seems like a rather odd statement considering there hasn't been a NtK?:

"With respect to your comments regarding liability, we acknowledge your position as the registered keeper and your
decision not to identify the driver. However, we can confirm that the PCN has been issued in accordance with the
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA), and liability has been correctly transferred to the keeper under the
provisions of the Act."

Also the fact that the signs have now been taken down and replaced with signs from the new parking management company would mean I would no longer be able to collect evidence for my appeal.. is that something POPLA would care about?

Any input much appreciated!


Details:

Tickets issued:
01/07/2025 and 03/07/2025

Informal appeal sent:
14/07/2025 and 16/07/2025

Appeals rejected and POPLA codes issued:
17/07/2025 and 18/07/2025


photo album: https://ibb.co/album/zsvjSb

https://i.ibb.co/938kVjqk/PCNs-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/ns5Bfxj1/PCNs-1.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Wp2vz1CP/site-photo-1.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/dwBkcMfm/site-photo-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/RphfPgtb/site-photo-3.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/60t1b7Bg/site-photo-4.jpg

vv See the informal appeal replies attached below vv

[attachment deleted by admin]