Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Fazzy on October 19, 2023, 09:26:04 pm

Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Pastmybest on March 08, 2024, 10:12:57 pm
Charging or not is not the issue. I do not charge and only if an Op offers do i ask that they make a donation Always to a children's hospice but if they have a favorite then that is fine. I have suggested a different worthy cause to one OP which they were happy to do.

To me the OP should know from the start, and whilst i take your point re prying eyes if an Op is not happy to pay in most cases our combined knowledge and experience is always going to be of benefit 
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Hippocrates on March 08, 2024, 08:36:43 pm
good work well done for sticking with it.

this case does bring up something that bothers me. That being the prevalence of experts taking on cases but taking them off the forum. In this case a charge for helping was requested but the Op felt they were not in a position to pay it.

IMO if an expert is to charge for their help or representation this should be made clear whilst the case is still on the forum, they can then continue to offer help if they wish but also another expert who does not wish to charge a fee would also be able to pick up the case as a representative before as in this case it was to late

Yes: well done for the perseverance and not joining The Mugged Club.

I do not charge, and neither does one other member;  rather, if won, I invite the OP to make a donation to my charity, The Princess Alice Hospice.  Most people offer to reimburse my travel fare.

Regarding taking the case off forum, I do this merely for the reason that I do not want prying eyes to see the arguments.  But, I take your points. :)
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Pastmybest on March 06, 2024, 11:26:13 am
good work well done for sticking with it.

this case does bring up something that bothers me. That being the prevalence of experts taking on cases but taking them off the forum. In this case a charge for helping was requested but the Op felt they were not in a position to pay it.

IMO if an expert is to charge for their help or representation this should be made clear whilst the case is still on the forum, they can then continue to offer help if they wish but also another expert who does not wish to charge a fee would also be able to pick up the case as a representative before as in this case it was to late 
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Fazzy on March 05, 2024, 02:38:02 pm
I just wanted to update on the hearing: I'm pleased to say the adjudicator (Mr Teper) decided to cancel the fine but not on the grounds of incorrect code. He read out the codes 01a and insisted it was the right one issued. He instead allowed it on the basis that the terms were not clearly displayed and it could be confusing to someone parking. He asked me lots of questions about if I knew I was not allowed to park there or if I read the terms because the terms were clear on paper apparently. I highlighted the deminis point about being 30cm over the restriction and he also picked up on the terrible spelling mistake on the lamppost etc. I also pointed out the long time between the NTO being served which he took on board.

Anyway I'm just happy its over with. Thank you to everyone for your help over this 11 month on this PCN.
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: cp8759 on February 27, 2024, 11:18:31 pm
To be honest the basic point is very straightforward: it's a waiting restriction, not a loading restriction, so you can park with a blue badge. The relevant provision is regulation 8 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Exemptions for Disabled Persons) (England) Regulations 2000 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/683/regulation/8/made) and it's a simple enough point that you should be OK on your own.

The authority's submissions about a blue badge being only relevant where parking isn't prohibited is the most brain-dead submission I've ever seen: if parking isn't prohibited, anyone can park even without a blue badge.
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Fazzy on February 27, 2024, 06:22:20 pm
Thank you H C Andersen. That has put my mind at ease.

@Enceladus - It was a paid service offered as I was feeling nervous to do it myself. But I'm feeling more confident to go it alone now thanks to all the advice. Thanks @cp8759 for looking at the evidence for me.
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Enceladus on February 27, 2024, 10:12:56 am
Thank you to cp8759 for his kind offer of representation. Before deciding to accept the paid help, I wanted to know if the chances of a win is possible with self representation on the hearing date? I guess if the chances are slim then I have to seek help from an experienced member as the $130 fee would be much harder to manage. I feel partly responsible for giving my sister false hope that this case can be won at the tribunal stage hence the forfeit of the discounted rate so please can I have honest advice on what the best option would be. I would love to win this without having to get my sister to pay anything if that's possible!

Thanks.
"paid help". I don't believe cp8759 is expecting a fee for representing you. A charitable donation at your discretion perhaps.
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: H C Andersen on February 26, 2024, 02:47:27 pm
OP, the contravention grounds which gave rise to the penalty which is being demanded are: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours.

Let's now deal with their evidence.

Either:
1. The traffic order creates the restriction referred to in the PCN, that is to say a simple waiting restriction; or

2. The traffic order does not. 

Taking 2 first. If the order doesn't, then there's no restriction to contravene. Appeal allowed.

Taking 1. There is an exemption required to be included in ALL traffic orders to the effect that holders of a BB which is correctly displayed(that is to say with a clock set to the quarter-hour of arrival) are exempt from the restriction for up to 3 hours. It's the law.

There is no issue that the authority accept that a BB was correctly displayed.

That's it. Appeal allowed. And if I were you I'd ask the adjudicator for a steer as regards costs(although your apparent appeal grounds of 'TMO invalid' were wide of the mark).
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Fazzy on February 26, 2024, 01:55:38 pm
Thank you to cp8759 for his kind offer of representation. Before deciding to accept the paid help, I wanted to know if the chances of a win is possible with self representation on the hearing date? I guess if the chances are slim then I have to seek help from an experienced member as the $130 fee would be much harder to manage. I feel partly responsible for giving my sister false hope that this case can be won at the tribunal stage hence the forfeit of the discounted rate so please can I have honest advice on what the best option would be. I would love to win this without having to get my sister to pay anything if that's possible!

Thanks.
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: cp8759 on February 26, 2024, 10:36:51 am
I've sent you a PM.
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Fazzy on February 26, 2024, 10:33:25 am
@Fazzy did you register the appeal online, and opt for email communication? You should have had an email telling you the hearing date, and you could have then simply checked the tribunal portal for the council evidence (because, you know, it's 2024 and we have this thing called the internet).

The case has not been decided yet (or at least it's not on the public register) and I infer from your post above that you requested a decision on the papers, which is more or less the worst thing you could possibly do. I suggest you call up the tribunal tomorrow morning, ask if there has been a decision, and if there hasn't change the hearing to a personal or telephone hearing.

If you are able to get a hearing, tell us the date!

And please tag me in your response on here or I might not see it in time.

@cp8759 I have managed to get the log in details from my sister and taken control! I've called the tribunal and have got the hearing changed to telephone for the 5th of March at 10am. I've never done one of this so sorry if the questions sound silly. Am I required to say anything during this telephone call? Do I disclose information about who was driving/parking etc?

Also do I upload the details about delayed evidence from Newham on the online portal now? as a word doc?

Thank you all and I'm not sure why I'm feeling nervous!

Editing to add: Ive checked the original thread on pepipoo and noticed there were few more replies on there which I missed. Shall I add this bit too:

@Schofeldt

Furthermore, the PCN itself contains a procedural error that invalidates it. Schedule 2 paragraph 2 states
(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,
However, the PCN I received states that payment is due within 28 days from the date of service, not the date of the alleged contravention. This discrepancy constitutes a procedural impropriety that renders the PCN invalid.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2

Case No 2230448785 courtesy of Mr Mustard
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: cp8759 on February 21, 2024, 08:52:13 pm
@Fazzy did you register the appeal online, and opt for email communication? You should have had an email telling you the hearing date, and you could have then simply checked the tribunal portal for the council evidence (because, you know, it's 2024 and we have this thing called the internet).

The case has not been decided yet (or at least it's not on the public register) and I infer from your post above that you requested a decision on the papers, which is more or less the worst thing you could possibly do. I suggest you call up the tribunal tomorrow morning, ask if there has been a decision, and if there hasn't change the hearing to a personal or telephone hearing.

If you are able to get a hearing, tell us the date!

And please tag me in your response on here or I might not see it in time.
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Fazzy on February 21, 2024, 07:40:52 pm
Hi all,

The evidence pack was received in the post. (Pic https://ibb.co/J36qMn0)

I've only just realised after reading all the replies that the hearing dates already passed! My sister was late in sending the scans to me so didn’t notice the dates.

I guess there nothing to do now that the hearings happened? Or is there somewhere we can still send the above suggestions to?



Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Enceladus on February 21, 2024, 04:43:48 pm
@cp8759

I see that the traffic order in the evidence pack is titled:
"Thames Water Mains Rehabilitation Scheme - Various Roads (Temporary Prohibition of Traffic) Order, 2022".

Paragraph 1 says:
"1. This order may be cited as the London Borough of Newham, Thames Water Mains Rehabilitation Scheme - E16 Area (Temporary Prohibition of Traffic), Order 2022"

The evidence photos of the posted sign refer to Priory Road, E6. IE not E16. However there is a Priory Road listed in the schedule to the order.

And Newham have already told you "We do not have an order as specified above as the E16 area so therefore cannot supply this information"

Does any of that help the OP or is it just a typo in the order and substantially compliant?

I also note that the Council's submission is dated Feb 7th which is Wednesday. The OP implies it was received by post so deemed served on Friday the 9th. The hearing is scheduled for 13th Feb which is Tues and so the Council's case has not been served with three clear (working) days.

@Fazzy
Did the evidence pack arrive in the post? Does the envelope have a post mark. Newham are notorious for postal delays. If it was posted I'd certainly add the point above about late service to your appeal.
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Fazzy on February 18, 2024, 08:26:39 pm
Hi all,
They've sent the big evidence pack. I've had the new info scanned and attached. Is there anything that I need to get my sister to do to respond or just sit tight?

https://jmp.sh/s/7ggLsuESMF6uKb2xXWQl

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Fazzy on January 15, 2024, 07:42:42 pm
Thank you. Forever grateful for your time and effort.
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: H C Andersen on January 11, 2024, 03:40:17 pm
Dear Sir,
PCN *******
VRM *******

The alleged contravention is: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours.

This conveys that a simple waiting restriction was in effect and I accept that I was parked within this restriction as I was entitled to do as I was displaying a valid Blue Badge in the required position with a clock.

That I was displaying a valid Blue Badge is not disputed by the authority, but despite this being put to them in my representations twice they have continued to reject these and ultimately required me to make this appeal.

In their rejection of my informal representations they acknowledged that a BB was displayed but gave their reasons for rejection as 'the PCN was issued because my vehicle was parked in a suspended parking bay' where a BB is not valid. That this was not the alleged contravention wasn't even considered.

This was followed in their NOR with a totally different reason which was that the CEO checked the car and did not see any exempt activity, despite their photos showing the badge and disc.

I do not know whether a different restriction to waiting was actually in place and neither, it appears, do the authority. But I can only respond to the alleged contravention which I have done. Unfortunately the authority have chosen to ignore this, but I am hopeful that the adjudicator will not and will allow my appeal on the grounds that the contravention did not occur. I would also submit that their actions in rejecting my representations in total disregard of the simple facts and their evidence constitutes unreasonable action on their part and I ask for a steer as regards an award of costs.

For starters.
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Fazzy on January 11, 2024, 01:47:30 pm
Thank you. I hope someone can help devise an appeal.
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Pastmybest on January 10, 2024, 09:38:13 am
Well i would have advised you carry on anyway as the contravention is wrong but that CP has been told they do not have an order then it really is a no brainer

Give it a few days someone will draft an appeal for you or may represent you at tribunal
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Fazzy on January 10, 2024, 08:35:42 am
Hi all,

They've gone ahead and rejected again! Please see the pdf attached.

https://ibb.co/XLKnfDV

Please kindly advise on next steps.

Thank you


Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: cp8759 on November 20, 2023, 11:14:47 pm
Well guess what:

Request
I hereby request the following information in relation to The London Borough of Newham, Thames Water Mains Rehabilitation Scheme - E16 Area (Temporary Prohibition of Traffic), Order 2022:

1) A copy of the actual Temporary Traffic Regulation Order (this is not to be confused with the Notice of Making, the statement of reasons or any other document), in PDF format with searchable / selectable text, inclusive of all schedules;

Response

We do not have an order as specified above as the E16 area so therefore cannot supply this information.


They might decide not to pursue this after all.
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Incandescent on October 22, 2023, 06:05:17 pm
Don't forget if they kick it into touch, what the Statutory Guidance says about service of the Notice to Owner.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-enforcement-of-parking-contraventions/guidance-for-local-authorities-on-enforcing-parking-restrictions

Quote
"The NtO may be issued 28 days after serving the penalty charge, and we expect authorities to send them within 56 days. The ultimate time limit, in exceptional circumstances, is 6 months [footnote 33] from the ‘relevant date’. There should be a very good reason for waiting that long to serve an NtO"

Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Fazzy on October 22, 2023, 01:22:51 pm
Thank you. Hopefully all sent off now.
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: guest17 on October 20, 2023, 01:26:50 pm
My mistake it wasn't on a yellow line but the point made is still valid.

Here's my draft for the OP:-

Code 01 Appeal: Priory Road, Newham

This appeal relates to PCN number PN35614550 Dated 23/04/2023 against VRM: KM72HJV

The appeal is in four parts, but each part is predicated on errors made by the Enforcement Authority.

1. Circumstances

Driving into Priory Road there were no signs indicating the whole area was covered by parking restrictions indeed there was a line of parked vehicles on the side of the street where I parked. I believed that with the works shuttering in place I had a legitimate expectation to park in the spot I chose with my Blue Badge on display. There was an advance warning sign next to the shuttering but no prescribed. parking suspension sign.

2. The Contravention Did Not Occur.

The Authority has issued a Code 01 contravention which relates to “Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours” but has attempted, in it’s rejection letter of 22 June, to conflate this contravention with a parking suspension.

The display of a valid BB with the clock in the correct position is an exemption to a Code 01 contravention so it is difficult to determine how the Authority can enforce a penalty charge.

The Authority has not specified a Code 21 Parking Suspension contravention on the PCN so again it is difficult to determine how it can enforce such a restriction. If it were to continue this line it should be pointed out that, regardless of the red roundel, the advance warning sign cannot substitute for the Authority’s suspension sign approved by the DfT on 22 March 2012. In this respect I refer the Authority to the Tribunal Decision Reference 2160447106 (Saiyid Noor v London Borough of Croydon.

3. Legitimate Expectation

I contend that I had a legitimate expectation to park in that position given the following reasons:-

a. The shuttering indicated that the rolling programme of water mains renewal had been completed;
b. Under the Authority’s noise and environmental protocols no works would be carried out on a Sunday  https://www.newham.gov.uk/public-health-saf...olition-sites/1
c. The effects of the Order expire once works have been completed;
d. There was no apparent parking suspension for that bay.

4. Other Matters

I would argue that the issue of an NTO six months after the PCN puts me in a prejudicial situation and that, as you are dealing with a disabled person, the Authority has failed in its duty to act fairly because of this unconscionable delay. I therefore request the Authority to exercise its discretion and cancel this PCN. I trust the Authority will have regard to my disability and their statutory obligation under the Equality Act 2010 to take my disability into account when considering this appeal. If the Authority decide not to cancel I require it to fully explain why it thinks my rights under the Equality Act 2010 do not merit cancellation of the penalty charge.

Yours


Mike
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Fazzy on October 19, 2023, 09:28:42 pm
[quote name='hcandersen' date='Thu, 19 Oct 2023 - 14:05' post='1796249']
Good choice.

At its simplest level - which is usually the right level for EA officers - either:

1. The contravention grounds are correct and in accordance with the prevailing restriction(and therefore meet regulatory standards), or
2. The contravention grounds are incorrect and do not accord with the prevailing restriction.

If 1, then the display of a valid BB with clock in the correct position is an exemption and the contravention did not occur.

If 2, then the grounds in the PCN are incorrect but none the less these are the only grounds upon which the authority is demanding a penalty. And 1 demonstrates that the display of a BB etc. is an exemption.

What the authority want to do is rewrite history. They know that the CEO made a mistake by using code 01 because this is not the restriction imposed by the order, rather this is:

'No person shall enter or cause to enter, park or remain in roads mentioned in the schedule of roads below..at such times as appropriate traffic signs are displayed...' (I think the council meant 'no person shall cause a vehicle to enter..', people as such don't park, they stand or sit).

It therefore follows that the authority cannot now dismiss representations made upon legitimate grounds simply because the CEO made a mistake and they think a different contravention was committed!
[/quote]
Title: Re: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Fazzy on October 19, 2023, 09:27:43 pm
[quote name='MMV Redux' date='Thu, 19 Oct 2023 - 09:26' post='1796218']
Wow! that NTO is late--just within the time allowed for issue.

OP----HCA's ground is the strongest----you cannot get a Code 01 PCN for parking on a yellow line with a Blue Badge if the clock was set correctly.

The Council are trying to finesse a parking suspension contravention which is wholly unreasonable.

If you like I will write you a "kitchen sink" appeal which covers everything members have supplied. It should be signed by the owner/keeper of the vehicle i.e. the NTO addressee.

If that appeal is rejected I am willing to represent you at the Tribunal at no cost.

Mick
[/quote]
Title: NTO Newham 01a blue badge
Post by: Fazzy on October 19, 2023, 09:26:04 pm
Bringing it over from here http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=151789&st=0&gopid=1796226&#entry1796226


Hi all,

I can’t find any of my previous posts- I’m not sure if it’s a glitch or if it’s all been deleted. I had previously posted this windscreen ticket of my sister/BILs. I was advised to wait for the NTO and go to tribunal.

I’m attaching the old PCN again plus the NtO and also posting advice which was received in the previous post that’s gone awol.

All the pics of initial PCN, pictures of the scene, rejection letter and the NTO:

https://ibb.co/album/8YqbRT
https://ibb.co/album/dG3FWd


OP----I would continue because the Council's response is unreasonable and they haven't look at the photos.

Let's have a quick review of your case:-

Blue Badge holder parking on a Sunday;
Penalty Code 01a ---parking in a street subject to a temporary traffic order (TTRO);
The area of work is shuttered off and there is no work on Sunday(by Council's own policy);
The TTRO states the restricted area is between lamposts 15 and 17;
OP parked slightly beyond lampost 15 into the restricted area.

So the grounds of appeal fall to two considerations:-

1) Legitimate Expectation

I had a legitimate expectation that I could park in that bay because the working area was completely shuttered off and no work would take place on a Sunday. These are the Council's environmental protocols:- https://www.newham.gov.uk/public-health-saf...olition-sites/1

This is the key enforcement photograph:- https://imgbb.com/ck54gBS

2) De Minimis

The area affected by the TTRO restrictions was between lampost 15 and lampost 17.

I agree I parked slightly beyond lampost 15 which, for some reason, had not been enclosed by the shuttering thereby giving me the impression that the bay was not part of the TTRO restriction. Given the Council's photos my vehicle was some 50cm beyond lampost 15 but before the shuttering. This is clearly a case of de minimis and it would be unfair/unsafe for the Council to pursue this matter.

I haven't included anything about how the Council deals with someone who is disabled but it's obvious that they shirk their duty under EQ legislation to give extra careful consideration to such cases