Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Premonition on July 25, 2025, 12:23:26 am

Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: stamfordman on September 14, 2025, 03:13:05 pm: Could be worth buying a resident permit as you live there - or did you have one that expired?
Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: Premonition on September 14, 2025, 02:32:00 pm: I have now paid.

Agreed re: checking signage.

Thanks so much for your helpful responses!
Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: Incandescent on September 14, 2025, 12:54:26 am: The key point to make is that there is another bay further along separated by a single yellow line. This means the council can impose different restrictions on each bay, which they would seem to have done here. Checking the bay restrictions sign is something every motorist is under a duty to do when parking in a marked bay, even though one is familiar with the area, it is things like this that can catch one out, especially if one is in a hurry.
Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: Premonition on September 13, 2025, 10:57:55 pm: Yes I was parked in first/last bay (where the silver hyundai i20 is in the photos in 1st link below).

From the road:
https://imgur.com/a/IfSD9IX (https://imgur.com/a/IfSD9IX)

From the pavement/behind car:
https://imgur.com/a/ATkJFFx (https://imgur.com/a/ATkJFFx)
Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: H C Andersen on September 13, 2025, 11:56:07 am: Road has recently been resurfaced. So lines all visible.
Road signage for first 4 parking spaces are different to signage for other spaces for the rest of the road. Which may have possibly caught the driver out..

I am a long-time resident of Harrow, I've lived on Montgomery Road specifically for the last 1.5 years.

Photos show car parked in last/first bay of the restriction.

So, as you live there pl give us the missing info in the form of photos of what's behind the car. We should test the difference in the restrictions, the siting of these signs and how this might support your case.

The recommended siting of traffic signs is NOT as in your case, instead see pp 179/180 here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c78f895e5274a0ebfec719b/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf
Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: Premonition on September 13, 2025, 09:47:42 am: Bump, as nearing 14d post challenge response.

Any further thoughts?
Leaning towards paying if nothing significant to challenge further.

Thanks for all the input so far!
Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: Premonition on September 07, 2025, 12:07:46 am: Here's the sign:

(https://i.imgur.com/jhJF19Y.jpeg)

Cheers
Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: H C Andersen on September 05, 2025, 10:09:35 am: Can we have a clear photo of the sign pl, I can't read theirs.

I don't know what restriction was contravened either from their photo, the PCN or their reply because there's no suffix in the PCN which tells me which of the smorgasbord of contraventions described in the description actually occurred.
Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: Premonition on September 04, 2025, 11:39:29 pm: I sent a challenge via Harrow council's online portal as suggested:

I am a long-time resident of Harrow, I've lived on Montgomery Road specifically for the last 1.5 years.
I'm used to different restrictions in the adjacent bay where I normally park. I was mortified to find the PCN on my car as I believed that the restrictions would be the same.
The entire road was recently resurfaced. I believe the bay (where I was parked) had not been resurfaced along with the rest of the road, but was done just prior to the ticket being issued. I can only wonder if this may have contributed to my mistake.
I sincerely apologize for this honest mistake. It was an error that could have happened to anyone, and I truly regret it. I will be extra cautious in the future.
As a long-time resident, I have always followed the parking regulations. This is my first offence, and I assure you that I have learned my lesson.
I respectfully ask that you use your discretion to cancel this PCN.
Thank you for your time and understanding.

Their response is below:
(https://i.imgur.com/3YFuO2j.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/G7yEJ3x.jpeg)

Any issues, or time to pay?
Cheers
Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: Enceladus on July 26, 2025, 11:13:11 am: Get an informal representation (challenge) delivered to Harrow before the 3rd August, before the discount window expires, and they will re-offer the discount if they reject you. It says so on the back of the PCN. That won't cost anything if you submit on-line. So you might as well have a punt as you have nothing to lose and £70 to gain.

Unless someone comes up with a defect in the PCN wording, you'll have to plead mitigation, polite and contrite.

Something along the these lines.

You're used to different restrictions in the adjacent bay where you normally park,
I was mortified to find your PCN on my car,
you believed it would be the same restrictions in this bay,
I didn't intend to evade a parking charge,
terribly sorry,
I made an honest mistake,
it could happen to anyone,
I learned my lesson and I won't do it again,
it's my first offence,
please use your discretion to cancel the PCN.

And so on in that vein. Whatever you can come up with.

Are you a Harrow resident? If so, mention that as well.

Post up what comes back, there might be a fatal error in the rejection.
Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: Incandescent on July 26, 2025, 01:27:06 am: Quote
happened to be in a rush
Councils unfortunately dine out generously on people who are in a hurry, (or using satnavs !).
Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: Premonition on July 25, 2025, 11:55:38 pm: I often park in the parking space one space down which has different parking restrictions (11-12pm). In this case my partner who was driving happened to be in a rush & it appears they looked at the closest sign they could see which was for the next set of spaces..
Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: Incandescent on July 25, 2025, 07:51:39 pm: Any particular reason why no payment was made despite there being a marked out bay, and a readable sign ?
Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: Premonition on July 25, 2025, 10:43:05 am: Thanks for your response Enceladus,

Yes, RK details are correct and current with the DVLA.

Weird, shows fine for me (on mobile). I've put original quality photos on google drive here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Z5PL33197xZuqsn8pA91EFDCF7JZsSoc?usp=drive_link
(Please do let me know if there are any issues with that and I can repost later this evening).

Yes, it is the same as in your GSV link, and yes, the correct side of the road.

Yes, no valid permit displayed and no pay and display was paid for.

Cheers,
Title: Re: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: Enceladus on July 25, 2025, 02:23:36 am: Who was driving is irrelevant, It's the owner of the vehicle that's liable and that is presumed to be the Registered Keeper as held by the DVLA unless proved otherwise. So are the RK details correct and current with the DVLA? However anyone can submit informal representations against the PCN at this stage.

The pictures of the front and back are too low resolution / out of focus to be read. Please correct them and repost.
Instructions are in the READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) sticky post at the top of the Forum. Please don't redact anything from your PCN.

The CEO's picture of the sign is a bit useless. Is it the same as in this Google Street View (https://maps.app.goo.gl/bBYBMkiDthVPUgvx6)? And is the GSV view of the sign showing the correct side of the road?

Do I correctly understand that there was no valid permit and no pay and and display time was paid for?
Title: PCN Harrow Borough, Code 12. Parked without valid permit/pay and display. Edgware.
Post by: Premonition on July 25, 2025, 12:23:26 am: Hi all,

Driver noted PCN below stuck to windscreen:

All photos (PCN + council photos): https://imgur.com/a/LwVPFGC (https://imgur.com/a/LwVPFGC)

PCN front: https://imgur.com/WDAM8YQ (https://imgur.com/WDAM8YQ)
PCN back: https://imgur.com/VcpNQrA (https://imgur.com/VcpNQrA)
Council's photo of the sign: https://imgur.com/LONcQ3b (https://imgur.com/LONcQ3b)

Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dq3ZfcVKUTnRxEDF6 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/dq3ZfcVKUTnRxEDF6)

Road has recently been resurfaced. So lines all visible.
Road signage for first 4 parking spaces are different to signage for other spaces for the rest of the road. Which may have possibly caught the driver out..

I'm curious if poor legibility of photo of the sign is valid grounds to challenge?

Many thanks in advance.