Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: ss201 on July 24, 2025, 06:16:45 pm
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Just to add, as I have a thread with the same contravention and location, my informal appeal for rejected and now am at the formal appelal stage - In my I performed a u-turn just as I passed teh U turn sign across the road (on the right side).
I was on cranbrook road and there is infact a no u-turn sign on the left side also a few meters further ahead but its hidden behind a traffic light, so no way for that to be seen as one turns left onto cranbrook road, see below.
https://ibb.co/93CPXHQf
https://ibb.co/5gwKxSFy
https://ibb.co/dwZSxvRG
Great that you've gone ahead with the formal appeal, I certainly think there's not enough signage especially as it's a new one. I caved and paid after the initial rejection.
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Just to add, as I have a thread with the same contravention and location, my informal appeal for rejected and now am at the formal appelal stage - In my I performed a u-turn just as I passed teh U turn sign across the road (on the right side).
I was on cranbrook road and there is infact a no u-turn sign on the left side also a few meters further ahead but its hidden behind a traffic light, so no way for that to be seen as one turns left onto cranbrook road, see below.
https://ibb.co/93CPXHQf
https://ibb.co/5gwKxSFy
https://ibb.co/dwZSxvRG
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Bumping this to see if any positive progress?
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@ss201 How do you calculate the 14 day period? When did you receive the NOR? Sorry, my PM was referring to another TMO for a different road.
No problem, they said 14 day period from the day I received it, that should be 15 Sep, so I want to send everything by Friday.
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@ss201 How do you calculate the 14 day period? When did you receive the NOR? Sorry, my PM was referring to another TMO for a different road.
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Agreed. Hence my previous question/thread.
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@NTIAEP, IMO the problem with this
'....and FYI - if you look at the video, you'll see there's a "no u-turn" sign affixed (and angled towards York Rd) to the lamppost on the other side of the road.' even if it flew would be that repeater signs are of the same size as initial prohibition signs. So, even if it was accepted that this sign gave adequate warning to drivers entering from York, this would be warning of what: you are already in a no U-turn area(and therefore wherever you turn would be a contravention) or that the prohibition starts at this sign?
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There might be other failures in the PCN, please post the full thing - both sides.
There are.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/london-borough-of-redbridge-code-31j/msg88710/#msg88710
PM sent.
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Evening All
It's for this exact junction that I recently posted the following question/thread in the forum:
herewhen-does-a-no-u-turn-sign-become-effective? (https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/wherewhen-does-a-no-u-turn-sign-become-effective/)
To circumvent the "no right turn" out of York Rd, I used to take a left and then proceed to make a u-turn when it was safe to do so, which prompted the above
....and FYI - if you look at the video, you'll see there's a "no u-turn" sign affixed (and angled towards York Rd) to the lamppost on the other side of the road.
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Just a few quick observations adding to the full reply given by @H_C_Andersen :
- It’s well worth taking and submitting photos of a driver’s view in York Road on the approach to Cranbrook Road, to prove there are no advance warning signs.
- It’s worth referencing the specific part of the TSRGD that precludes the No U-Turn sign from being placed within a puffin controlled area, otherwise an adjudicator may dismiss the point.
- It may also be worth mentioning the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 (4.11) that states the sign should be on the driver’s LEFT (and can then be duplicated on the right). But remember this is not the law.
- Check the sign at the start of the restriction further south in Cranbrook Rd. It should have a distance plate mounted beneath it. And, there should be a sign 40m north of Wellesley Road with an “End” plate beneath it. If not, this will add weight to your case.
Thanks, I remember seeing the sign with end on it. I will double check and take pictures.
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Just a few quick observations adding to the full reply given by @H_C_Andersen :
- It’s well worth taking and submitting photos of a driver’s view in York Road on the approach to Cranbrook Road, to prove there are no advance warning signs.
- It’s worth referencing the specific part of the TSRGD that precludes the No U-Turn sign from being placed within a puffin controlled area, otherwise an adjudicator may dismiss the point.
- It may also be worth mentioning the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 (4.11) that states the sign should be on the driver’s LEFT (and can then be duplicated on the right). But remember this is not the law.
- Check the sign at the start of the restriction further south in Cranbrook Rd. It should have a distance plate mounted beneath it. And, there should be a sign 40m north of Wellesley Road with an “End” plate beneath it. If not, this will add weight to your case.
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I entered Cranbrook from York Road and turned left i.e. north.
This junction lies within the area: 'the effect of which will be to introduce on Cranbrook Road a ban on U-turn movements in both directions between a point 26 metres south of the southern kerb-line of York Road and a point 40 metres north of the northern kerb-line of Wellesley Road. (the council's traffic order refers).
The council has not placed any signs, prescribed or otherwise, in York Road to warn drivers that as soon as they enter Cranbrook Road they are subject to a no U-Turn prohibition. As this prohibition applies as soon as a driver enters Cranbrook Road, it follows that the no U-turn sign in the video, which is placed improperly in any event because it is within a puffin crossing controlled area, is not a prohibition sign in itself (which presumably lies '26 metres south of the southern kerb-line of York Road') but can only be a repeater sign. Therefore, although I executed (and the authority accepts) a U-turn before passing this sign, the authority is quite correct when it states in the NOR that as 'the prohibition applies to the whole[prohibited] length of Cranbrook not solely after the point at which the signs are passed' I committed a contravention of their Order.
But I submit that the authority may not enforce U-turns before this unlawful sign because they have not informed drivers joining from York Road that they are within a prohibited area as soon as they join Cranbrook Road and have completely glossed over their shortcoming in this regard in the NOR. Instead, they glibly state that 'it is the driver's responsibility to look out for signage' while ignoring the fact that if they haven't placed sufficient signs in the first place then no degree of driver diligence could see non-existent signs.
Thanks for the detailed response, it does highlight how inefficient their signage was and more a money grabbing opportunity than anything. That part really stood out for me 'the driver's responsibility'! If I have understood correctly, I need to fill in the form so that it now goes to court. And the fine would be £160 as the two weeks will be up. It still feels like there's a chance it could be waived and may worth pursuing?
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I entered Cranbrook from York Road and turned left i.e. north.
This junction lies within the area: 'the effect of which will be to introduce on Cranbrook Road a ban on U-turn movements in both directions between a point 26 metres south of the southern kerb-line of York Road and a point 40 metres north of the northern kerb-line of Wellesley Road. (the council's traffic order refers).
The council has not placed any signs, prescribed or otherwise, in York Road to warn drivers that as soon as they enter Cranbrook Road they are subject to a no U-Turn prohibition. As this prohibition applies as soon as a driver enters Cranbrook Road, it follows that the no U-turn sign in the video, which is placed improperly in any event because it is within a puffin crossing controlled area, is not a prohibition sign in itself (which presumably lies '26 metres south of the southern kerb-line of York Road') but can only be a repeater sign. Therefore, although I executed (and the authority accepts) a U-turn before passing this sign, the authority is quite correct when it states in the NOR that as 'the prohibition applies to the whole[prohibited] length of Cranbrook not solely after the point at which the signs are passed' I committed a contravention of their Order.
But I submit that the authority may not enforce U-turns before this unlawful sign because they have not informed drivers joining from York Road that they are within a prohibited area as soon as they join Cranbrook Road and have completely glossed over their shortcoming in this regard in the NOR. Instead, they glibly state that 'it is the driver's responsibility to look out for signage' while ignoring the fact that if they haven't placed sufficient signs in the first place then no degree of driver diligence could see non-existent signs.
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OP, some time ago I asked whether there were any signs in Wellesley warning that drivers were entering a No U-Turn area as soon as they joined Cranbrook.
You've not replied.
You entered Cranbrook at its junction with Wellesley and immediately were within a restricted area i.e it does NOT start at the sign in view in the video 'The prohibition applies to the entire stretch of Cranbrook Road where the signs are in effect not solely after the point at which the sign is passed. It remains the drivers responsibility to look out for signage whilst driving.'
So, whether there are signs in Wellesley as you approach Cranbrook is important. IMO, you could not compile your most persuasive appeal without finding out.
I'm sorry I thought you meant York Road as that's where I entered Cranbrook Road, there were no signs on York Road from where I took the left turn. I mentioned that in my appeal. I actually found the text I wrote in my appeal:
"There is no warning or 'no U-turn' sign in York Road from where I made the turn into Cranbrook road before I made the U turn meaning I was unaware of the rule due to the fact the council did not place a sign to ensure drivers coming from York road are aware of this rule. This is a major flaw, The first 'no U-turn' sign appears after the pedestrian crossing and I turned before that ‘no u-turn’ sign. This means by the time when I turned left from York road onto cranbrook road and made a U turn , there were not any signs informing me of the fact that there are no U turns allowed there. A contravention should only committed after I have passed the first sign.
The first ‘no u-turn’ sign is placed within a ‘puffin controlled area’ (zig-zag lines). The TSRGD ( TSRGD 2016, reg. 2 and Sch 1) prohibits the use of all road signs (with a few exceptions, eg no-right-turn) from being placed within zig-zag lines. The reason for this is that drivers need to be fully concentrating on pedestrians using the crossing. It’s no wonder I missed the sign - I was paying careful attention to the pedestrian crossing ahead of me.
There is a 'no U-turn' sign after the turn is made, which doesn't warn any driver like me not to make the U-turn before I actually made the turn
I was a resident on mansfield road and I used to make this turn everyday of my life but however since this is a new rule introduced in March 2025, there should be more warning and signage before drivers like me attempt the U-turn. For this reason receiving a penalty for a rule that isn’t made aware to drivers coming onto Cranbrook road from York road isn't fair. As there are no signs till after the bend on Cranbrook road how was I supposed to know that the rule has been introduced? I believe this is unfair. In the pictures attached below you can clearly see there is no sign from when I turned onto Cranbrook road and made the U turn therefore I argue this penalty should be waived."
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OP, some time ago I asked whether there were any signs in Wellesley warning that drivers were entering a No U-Turn area as soon as they joined Cranbrook.
You've not replied.
You entered Cranbrook at its junction with Wellesley and immediately were within a restricted area i.e it does NOT start at the sign in view in the video 'The prohibition applies to the entire stretch of Cranbrook Road where the signs are in effect not solely after the point at which the sign is passed. It remains the drivers responsibility to look out for signage whilst driving.'
So, whether there are signs in Wellesley as you approach Cranbrook is important. IMO, you could not compile your most persuasive appeal without finding out.
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Thanks for uploading the images. Here are the new links:
https://ibb.co/KxsKP6TB
https://ibb.co/dsF7jDZC
https://ibb.co/0jpH01xH
https://ibb.co/9mkBchS4
I have included the form they sent as well. I am afraid I don't have a copy of my response, I mentioned what was suggested here about there being no U-turn sign before the turn onto the road and after the pedestrian crossing which can prevent drivers from concentrating on pedestrians. I wish I kept a copy of my text.
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EDIT - UPDATED with remaining pages - page 2 appears to be missing.
You posted the links, but no matter, (you need to scroll down slightly further for th BBCodes). For convenience, here are yr images:
(https://i.ibb.co/8DnRVCJL/page-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gMbXC2GL)
Page 2 is MISSING
Next Page
(https://i.ibb.co/3mFR31gV/page-2-edited.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KxsKP6TB)
(https://i.ibb.co/RkrpjGCx/page-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cSfcYKNG)
(https://i.ibb.co/8nqXN9kv/page-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dsF7jDZC)
(https://i.ibb.co/gMbk0Qxk/page-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0jpH01xH)
(https://i.ibb.co/KcpBbDSs/page-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9mkBchS4)
I suspect the 2nd page of the NoR is missing, as the sentence at the end of page 1 does not finish. Please supply a link to the missing page and also one to the next the right way up and I will sort them for you.
Please could you also post the copy of yr reps.
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I received the rejection from Redbridge but can't seem to find the way to attach anymore :-[ . So I am typing the main part
You have discovered why the use of attachments is not recommended.
The easiest way to upload docs here (unless you have no mobile phone camera) is to use yr phone to photo each page of each doc, redacting yr name & address where it occurs, and uploading the images to an external site like https://ibb.co/ or imgur and copy and post the BBCodes here. I use ibb with no probs. (Scroll down past the image to see the BBCode.)
Your transcription is an example of why transcriptions are deprecated - you have a missed a key feature (the date). Please post all sides of the rejection, redacting only yr name & address, and a copy of yr submission to the Council, so that it can be judged how well they considered yr submission.
Thanks for the instructions, here are the bbcodes. Hope it works!
https://ibb.co/gMbXC2GL
https://ibb.co/tpjnsg1v
https://ibb.co/cSfcYKNG
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I received the rejection from Redbridge but can't seem to find the way to attach anymore :-[ . So I am typing the main part
You have discovered why the use of attachments is not recommended.
The easiest way to upload docs here (unless you have no mobile phone camera) is to use yr phone to photo each page of each doc, redacting yr name & address where it occurs, and uploading the images to an external site like https://ibb.co/ or imgur and copy and post the BBCodes here. I use ibb with no probs. (Scroll down past the image to see the BBCode.)
Your transcription is an example of why transcriptions are deprecated - you have a missed a key feature (the date). Please post all sides of the rejection, redacting only yr name & address, and a copy of yr submission to the Council, so that it can be judged how well they considered yr submission.
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I received the rejection from Redbridge but can't seem to find the way to attach anymore :-[ . So I am typing the main part where they outline the reasons:
"The signage complies with the requirements set out in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2016. Although you state that the sign was placed within a puffin crossing area, the placement has been reviewed and deemed lawful and sufficient to inform drivers of the restriction.
The prohibition applies to the entire stretch of Cranbrook Road where the signs are in effect, not solely after the point at which the sign is passed.
It remains the driver’s responsibility to look out for signage whilst driving.
We have rejected your representations because your vehicle was seen performing a prohibited turn.
You now have the following options:
Pay the outstanding amount of £80 within 14 days of the date this letter was served (the date it was delivered) after this point the full charge of £160.00 will become due.
Or you can appeal to the Environment & Traffic Adjudicators (ETA, part of London Tribunals) using the enclosed appeal form. This must be done no later than 28 days of this letter being served. An Adjudicator, who is independent of the Council, will then consider your appeal and make a final decision about whether your appeal should be allowed or rejected by the Council. Their decision is legally binding on both you and the Council."
Any thoughts?
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Thanks, we'll check the area for signage before replying
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IMO, your grounds are: There was no contravention etc.
You didn't pass the sign which was the first indication you had that a 'U-turn' was not permitted but instead turned round as soon as you saw it.
And see how they respond.
I assume there isn't any form of warning sign in Wellesley. If you're local perhaps you could take some photos and also in Cranbrook to show where the prohibition starts.
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Bump for any suggestions, thanks
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Here's the second page.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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(https://i.ibb.co/tTfqFBJ5/d-GRUd-VBYe-Td-DVVFZUU5pe-GI5-YWp-Dci8z-Tjdr-MFJne-XBGRFl1-OVVEZUZFV0p4e-Wdk-Sll-PWm-ZNZHds-UUNYZnk3.gif)
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The second page just has the usual 'making a representation' notes, so I'm not uploading that.
We're nothing if not thorough, so pl post it so that it can be checked for procedural conformity.
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Thanks everyone, that's very helpful information. I'm attaching the full letter. The video can be viewed by the PCN, sorry I don't know how to download the video. The second page just has the usual 'making a representation' notes, so I'm not uploading that.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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the effect of which will be to introduce on Cranbrook Road a ban on U-turn movements in both directions between a point 26 metres south of the southern kerb-line of York Road and a point 40 metres north of the northern kerb-line of Wellesley Road.
Therefore Wellesley joins Cranbrook within the prohibited area i.e. it doesn't start at the sign in view because this is a repeater, not the mandatory sign.
But if a motorist joins a prohibited road without knowing or passing the initial sign in Cranbrook, which in this case is 40m to their right, then their first sign would be the repeater.
So we need to see the video to see whether you drove past this sign. On its own IMO it would signify the start of the prohibited area.
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Two important points:
Firstly from the still image, the blue car appears to be turning before the ‘no u-turn’ sign. IMO, a contravention is only committed after you have passed the sign.
Secondly, this seems to be another case of the ‘no u-turn’ sign being placed within a ‘puffin controlled area’ (zig-zag lines). The TSRGD prohibits the use of all road signs (with a few exceptions, eg no-right-turn) from being placed within zig-zag lines. The reason for this is that drivers need to be fully concentrating on pedestrians using the crossing. It’s no wonder you missed the sign - you were paying careful attention to the pedestrian crossing ahead of you.
Note: if this is a pelican crossing (with flashing amber phase), then the relevant regulations are TSRGD 2002, reg. 27(1). Otherwise it’s TSRGD 2016, reg. 2 and Sch 1.
Hope this helps.
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There might be other failures in the PCN, please post the full thing - both sides.
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Sorry I didn't notice that. Usually signage is on the left side so that people know before attempting a U turn
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'no signage'...well, not apart from the no U turn sign on the post right in front of your car. Presumably that is to avoid people circumventing the no right turn out of the side street.
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I got a PCN for a U turn after I took a left on Cranbrook Road in Ilford, there's no right turn allowed. I've attached the photo. Looks like they changed the rule this year https://publicnoticeportal.uk/notice/traffic-and-roads/67d2d1b2b51fca5734d4cbc3 but there was no signage. I would really appreciate if somebody can advise on this. Thanks.
[attachment deleted by admin]