Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: moonstomper5 on July 20, 2025, 08:55:31 pm
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What is the relevant clause in your hire agreement about paying PCNs, etc.?
I don't think the OP has answered this question?
There was an argument on this website that if hire companies have a term in the hire contract allowing them to pay PCNs without referral to the hirer, then such a term would be an unfair term under s63 of the https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/63 insofar as such a term prevents the hirer from exercising their legal right to challenge the PCN, and therefore the term is legally unenforceable by the hire company against the hirer.
So in theory the hirer would be able to recover any recharge from the hire company.
Whether this argument has been properly tested, I don't know...
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I am going to complain to the council and the hirer.
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I am sorry. i used my google timeline as the basis for that info. i don't know how or where that restriction is in realo life and to be honest in the videos all i see is a car drivinhg then a car driving again.
Please don't be cross about my lack of understanding. i am an infrequent driver and did not know about these restricted bits. That's all.
Thank you for trying to help me though. I have a plan and am getting email help from Hipprocrates from this point and gosh I do need it eh???
Sorry if I sound defeated. I am not, only deflated.
Again, thank you for your time HC
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Have you seen the videos?
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The main focus should be a joint complaint to Southwark and the hire company at present.
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Let's just deal with the facts pl.
The prohibited area is Grove Lane between its junctions with Windsor and DeCrespigny.
The PCNs show your car entering the area twice, not entering and leaving but entering. At 14.54 you drove north from Windsor and then at 14.57 drove south from DeCespigny. If we're to compile an argument, then accuracy is essential. Windsor is a cul-de-sac and therefore you could not have turned into Grove from there.
Pl think again about the events because you couldn't have turned left from DeCespigny and then returned south because this was your second entry.
(BTW, I'm a pensioner as well and appreciate the issues)
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I really am so upset by this. I've walked and cycled 100+ times down that road and have NEVER noticed the signs. I no longer own a car and had no idea these restrictions were even a thing. I cycle EVERYWHERE so I am usually more than aware keeping up to date with local road changes including highway code updates etc.
This was the first time I had driven since my son died in November so was taking extra care as I got used to the vehicle.The only reason I can think of for not responding to the signs is maybe I was TOO focused on driving and so less on the areaq as I thought I know these roads well.
~I am clearly in the wrong - it is me driving . But I can't believe they got me twice for same thing 2 mins apart.
Southwark council are thieves.
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On 1st July I drove along Denmark Hill** turned left into *depesigny Park then left onto grove lane******. I was looking for somewhere to park before realising it was all permits only and so turned around and drove straight back up Grove lane and onto Dog Kennel Hill then home. I did not stop.
On ** 16th July I received notification from EuropCar Hire (the car was on hire) that they had received and subsequently paid at the discount level two PCNs for the following contravention
Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian and cycle zone 53c ***** Grove Lane junction Windsor Walk 14.54 1 July
"" Grove Lane junction De Crespigny Park 14.56 1 July
The prohibition is in Grove Lane and extends from its junction with Windsor Walk to De Crespigny Road. These contraventions were caught on separate cameras situated at the 2 junctions which are some 135m apart.
Europcar letter included an invoice(s) for £250 representing 2x fines @ £80 each + 2 x administration fees @ £45 each .
The letter informs me they have already paid the fines and will automatically take the money from the same card I used to hire the vehicle in 14days (30th July)
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I'm sorry I really don't know if this is what you meant but here it is anyway. Ive just filled in the blanks from your message query. Apologies if that's not what you meant . I don't do online/typing well and this is my first active forum query in years and years.
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OP, could we start with a clear narrative pl.
On ** I drove along *** turned ** into *** then ******.
On ** I received notification from Enterprise Car Hire (the car was on hire) that they had received and subsequently paid at the discount level two PCNs for the following contravention
Failing to comply ***** Grove Lane junction Windsor Walk 14.54 1 July
"" Grove Lane junction De Crespigny Park 14.56 1 July
The prohibition is in Grove Lane and extends from its junction with Windsor Walk to De Crespigny Road. These contraventions were caught on separate cameras situated at the 2 junctions which are some 135m apart.
Enterprise's letter included an invoice(s) for ***** representing ****. The letter gives me ** to pay or the money will be taken from my ****.
On the day in question, I drove along Windsor Walk, turned right into Grove Lane then exited the prohibited area at De Crespigny Park and continued along ****. I did not stop.
Does this cover the essentials?
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@mrmustard I am thinking of writing to the company, pointing out the legislation, copy to council and seek a refund to the company and start again from scratch. Any better ideas please?
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Thank you
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I'll take a look later.
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So I have no chance of even getting the fine to the one charge?
I feel quite sick.
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Who do I contact if I want to appeal the notce?
Please send any appeal or dispute to the issuing body directly, along with our Third Party Authorisation Letter. If the issuer agrees to cancel the notce and refund the balance we have paid, we can then cancel our invoice in full.
Clearly Europcar have either completely misunderstood the legal process with PCNs or a just mendacious, because the "issuing body" is the council, who have now received full payment for the PCNs, so have no possible incentive to cancel the payment and reimburse Europcar. The whole process works on the basis that payment admits the contravention and closes the matter.
The correct process is for them to submit representations to the council that they are a hire company, and supply your name and address.
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They have already paid it/them
If appealed at later stage they will refund.
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What is the relevant clause in your hire agreement about paying PCNs, etc.?
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https://maps.app.goo.gl/zuji5XaEjLypeLbeA
https://maps.app.goo.gl/BSpxY2biasBbsFDn9
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Hello,
I recently hired a car and since have received 2 PCNs from Southwark councilo within 2 minutes of each other.
I have attached both 53C
I did not see the signage AT ALL. This seems awfully unfair.
I came across the exact issue from someone on your site dated december 2024.
As it was a hire car the fine has automatically been paid (2x£80 + 2x£45admin fee from hire company. TOTAL=£250)
How do I go about complaining re being charged TWICE in 2 minutes ?
Also, could you tell me how to include mitigating circumstances in my appeal as I saw on some sites I could appeal on the grounds of certain life events impacting my ability to see less obviously place signage in this area?
Would this help my appeal ? or should i focus on reducing this hefty double fine to just the one?
I was so happy (but infuriated) to read how much help you gave to the user appealing the fine from the exact same area .
Any advice /templates you coulod direct me to is very much appreciated.
I am happy to share my mitigating circumstances privately at this point if more infomation is needed
p.s the screenshot of the signs was taken from afore mentioned user's post
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Grove+Lane+%26+Windsor+Walk,+London+SE5+8SL/@51.4696723,-0.0909738,17z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x48760383dd4ad879:0x8551b5828612eaf7!8m2!3d51.4691119!4d-0.0871465!16s%2Fg%2F11hb3vvybr?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDcxNi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
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