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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: spinningfish on October 17, 2023, 08:45:08 am

Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: spinningfish on March 13, 2024, 10:10:31 am
Thank you for all your help. I think that’s a very salient point and hopefully one that will help other people in a similar position.

Great forum and fabulous advice from all.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: cp8759 on March 13, 2024, 09:17:51 am
@spinningfish I've had a look and it seems to me that the appeal could have been won, but I don't see that the adjudicator has made any obvious error.

The argument that should have been pursued is that, in the absence of the broad yellow line, there was nothing to put a blue badge holder on notice that it was necessary to check the upright sign, so the overall signage was inadequate within the meaning of regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996.

I can't see any scope for a review because ultimately you're not entitled to a second bite at the cherry, the argument should have been put forward the first time round.

The only thing I can say is that if you're ever in this position again please PM me before the hearing, this is the sort of case where having a professional representative could have made all the difference.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: cp8759 on March 08, 2024, 10:32:46 am
@spinningfish I'm so sorry you didn't PM me before your appeal, as this could have been pushed the other way. As I work full time and am often swamped with appeals as it is, I can't always stay up to date with the forum.

To everyone else, if an OP is in this position in the future please tell them to PM me as soon as they get a notice of rejection.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: Incandescent on March 04, 2024, 02:54:50 pm
Well at least they had to do at least some work for their money !
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: Hippocrates on March 04, 2024, 02:15:02 pm
I used to deal with this issue on pepipoo a few years ago.  I would PM cp for his thoughts re an application for a review.
Title: TRIBUNAL LOST: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: spinningfish on March 04, 2024, 11:04:13 am
Hello all.

Just to update that sadly I lost the tribunal. Please see the adjudicator's findings below:

"The Appellant is appealing a Penalty Charge Notice issued in respect of parking on a taxi rank at the location.

The Enforcement Authority relies upon the contemporaneous evidence of the Civil Enforcement Officer, a copy of the PCN, a copy of the relevant legislation and a location map.

The Appellant contends that the road markings at the location were not statutorily compliant.  It is also contended that Blue Badge parking was permitted at the location.

I have carefully considered all the evidence in this matter, including the appellant’s oral evidence which I found to be credible and cogent.

The Council contends that the vehicle was parked in a bay which at the relevant time, was reserved for taxis only. The vehicle was observed to be parked in very close proximity to the relevant signage, which sets out three separate restrictions: taxis only between 6pm and 8am, Friday and Saturday; Goods vehicles only loading from Monday to Saturday 8am to 6pm, and all vehicle parking at other times.  The day in question was a Saturday.

The Appellant contends that the carriageway markings at the location were not statutorily compliant. They contend that, pursuant to item 8, Part 4 of Schedule 7 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, a broad 200 millimetre yellow line is missing from the road markings on Fore Street.  However, this is a shared use bay and not a bay only used for taxis, ambulances or police vehicles where stopping by other vehicles is prohibited.  The bay in question is a multi-use bay.  There is therefore no statutory requirement for a yellow line at the edge of the carriageway.

The appellant has told me that they were the driver on the relevant occasion, and had been looking for a place to park. They saw the parking bay and has been frank in telling me that they simply did not notice the signage just ahead of the vehicle. They displayed their Blue Badge prior to leaving the vehicle and I accept that they genuinely believed that they could legitimately park there.

The sign itself is subdivided into three separate panels.  The upper panel, setting out the “taxi only”  restriction is prominent and unobscured and I find that it clearly set out the relevant restrictions. Whilst I accept that he did not see it, it was nonetheless there to be seen, in close proximity to the vehicle.

The EA contends that the Blue Badge displayed could not be relied upon by the appellant as the bay was, at the relevant time, a “taxi only” bay.  The appellant contends that he should have been able to rely upon his Blue Badge by virtue of Regulation 8 of SI 683 of the Local Authorities Traffic Orders (Exemptions for Disabled Persons) (England) Regulations 2000.

The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Exemptions for Disabled Persons)(England) Regulations 2000 set out a number of exemptions to parking contraventions for Blue Badge holders at Articles 6-9.  Regulation 8 does not appear to be applicable in this case, as that regulation appears to deal with prohibitions on waiting in a road at all times of day or during specified periods i.e. it relates to waiting on either double or single yellow lines.  Regulation 8 requires an exemption to be included in traffic orders which provide for restrictions indicated by yellow lines.  I do not find that reliance upon this Regulation can be extended to what is a “taxis only” bay during the relevant hours. The 2023 order sets out a number of exemptions to the restriction.  However, they do not include an exemption for Blue Badge parking.

I therefore find that the appellant’s Blue Badge may not be relied upon whilst a  “taxis only” restriction is in force and the display of the Badge did not permit him to park as he did.

I am satisfied to the requisite standard that a contravention has taken place and that no statutory ground of appeal/exemption has been established.  Accordingly I must refuse this appeal."


I appreciate everyone's help and it was definitely worth a go!
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: spinningfish on January 15, 2024, 09:16:32 pm
Thank you. I’ll give the tribunal a go, otherwise it feels a bit like bullying to me and I don’t like that.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: Incandescent on January 13, 2024, 07:49:23 pm
The advice given before you sent in your reps still applies, so it is now up to you whether you want to stand your ground and take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal or just pay the discount. Lack of the yellow line could win, but an adjudicator may decide it is "substantially compliant", because you were in a bay, so would seem to have ignored the sign.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: spinningfish on January 13, 2024, 02:57:34 pm
Sorry to have to bump this.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: spinningfish on January 09, 2024, 06:22:03 pm
I’ll be interested to see his take on it. Thank you.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: Incandescent on January 08, 2024, 10:39:51 pm
Hopefully CP8759 will be along soon.  He likes a good argument ! However, they have re-offered the discount, so it would be the usual double-or-quits gamble at adjudication.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: spinningfish on January 08, 2024, 10:17:42 pm
Sorry to bump this.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: spinningfish on January 03, 2024, 09:35:14 pm
Evening all.

It has been a little while, but we have a decision from East Herts.

The driver of the vehicle initially made the representations against the PCN, but an email was received from East Herts to say that representations needed to be made by the registered keeper, hence how long it has taken for them to reply.

Enjoy!

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: H C Andersen on October 28, 2023, 11:32:36 am
And of course the sign is improper: the configuration means that it is supposed to be a part-time parking place with, in this case, a complimentary waiting restriction..but it can't be because the parking place is 24/7 by virtue of the 'P At all other times' plate.

What a mess. Not HCC or EHDC's finest moment.

So stand by for denial!

I'm sure cp would relish the opportunity.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: spinningfish on October 28, 2023, 09:56:39 am
Thank you so much. I’ll let you know how it goes!
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: cp8759 on October 21, 2023, 03:50:19 pm
Here you go:

Dear East Hertfordshire District Council,

I challenge PCN ET34311964 on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. Firstly, I draw your attention to diagram 1028.6 found at item 8 of Part 4 of Schedule 7 to the Traffic Signs Regulations 2016, which is mandatory for a restriction of this type. This diagram requires a broad 200 millimetre yellow line, but this line is missing from the road markings on Fore Street.

Furthermore I note the restriction on the upright sign is a waiting restriction, it follows that the exemption at regulation 8 of statutory instrument 683 of 2000 is engaged.

For each of the above reasons, the alleged contravention did not occur and the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: spinningfish on October 20, 2023, 03:53:31 pm
As requested - *BUMP*
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: spinningfish on October 18, 2023, 10:00:21 am
That's fantastic! Thank you.
Title: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: cp8759 on October 17, 2023, 07:11:01 pm
Council photos:

(https://i.imgur.com/SyKcfm6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dVcokvK.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/x7RpUdZ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/A7wtJhj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/kq3cjUN.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/EiVV8lz.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/8u956dz.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/U8FnAn3.jpg)

Two issues arise:

The first is that because this is a waiting prohibition, rather than a parking place designated for taxis, the exemption at regulation 8 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Exemptions for Disabled Persons) (England) Regulations 2000 is arguably engaged. This is similar to the loading bay issue, which has been dealt with in Cassidy on behalf of Cassidy v Kirklees Metropolitan Council (KM 05633F, 13 August 2012) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1gvuqjl_eFCact5ruLgpe4w1RLuoCj8pp), the review in Cassidy on behalf of Cassidy v Kirklees Metropolitan Council (KM 05633F, 19 September 2012) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=13-7oN_dLyNtY8DlTCmPdMFefqFFLbx8v), Karen Lewin v Kent County Council (with Canterbury CC) (KB 05084B, 05 November 2014) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1HOrYPHV6sikQSl-SHXfVpY4TyZE3sMcb) and Anthony Granville Clarke-Grenfell v Devon County Council (YD 05198JSD, 01 July 2015) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1bZhSbg1ooKFvD2BE-ncIiq-_zoTbMLUY).

The other point is that the road markings are wrong, because a bay of this type should use diagram Diagram 1028.6 found at item 8 of Part 4 of Schedule 7 to the Traffic Signs Regulations 2016 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made):

(https://i.imgur.com/6xLRvvo.png)

The broad yellow line is missing, so there was nothing to alert you that a restriction of this type might be in force, so you had no reason to go and check the sign. As such the bay markings are inadequate.

Give others 2 / 3 days to comment, if nobody adds anything bump the thread and I will draft a representation for you.
Title: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore Street, Hertford
Post by: spinningfish on October 17, 2023, 08:45:08 am
Hello

I'm pretty sure I don't have a leg to stand on, but here goes anyway.

I was meeting friends in Hertford and was looking for parking in Fore Street, Hertford. The disabled parking bay had a van in it loading/unloading furniture, so I went back around the block and parked in a space on the street.

I didn't check any signs, because it was just before 6pm on a Saturday evening and there were other cars parked there. I popped my blue badge in the window, which I do as a matter of habit and went about my evening.

Yesterday morning, I received a PCN through the door. There hadn't been a parking ticket stuck to my car, so this was the first I knew of it. Apparently, the parking spaces become a taxi rank after 6pm on a Saturday night, so blue badge or not, I definitely couldn't park there.

My parking location was here - directly outside the left building of Veyso's: https://maps.app.goo.gl/7Es2FjtDN1VQj3Dv6

Here's the PCN and the pictures of where I parked and the signage that I didn't look at...   ::)

(https://singshack.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Scan.jpeg)
(https://singshack.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Scan-1.jpeg)
(https://singshack.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Scan-2.jpeg)
(https://singshack.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Scan-3.jpeg)
(https://singshack.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Screenshot-2023-10-15-at-17.21.34.png)
(https://singshack.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Screenshot-2023-10-15-at-17.22.39.png)

Any help would be much appreciated, but obviously I'll pay the fine if I've done the crime!