Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Archie on July 17, 2025, 08:30:06 pm
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Enceladus, thank you for you support and responces .
After receiving several acceptances we did write to the council and worded it as if speaking to a minor with little grasp of english and even less ability to deduce what happened, they also stated that as this referes to multiple tickets each will have to dealt with idividually,
They had coppies of all 11 so still decided to to investigate each one inspite of same car ,same location ,consecutive days, nothing has changed.
As said, up to the council to proove I was the owner/keeper on the days in question, as for the comment that the dvla gave me as the keeper on the dates in question, nobody stated that , the dvla gave me as the keepr from a date after the tickets were incured, folk including those at Ealing have assumed I kept it prior to dvla records.
I am now going to attempt to find the address of the seller and engage with the applicable authorities, we have insurance ,v.e.d,Ulez and parking tickets
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Just to update,so far have received 7 letters accepting what I have stated and cancelling the tickets, 3 wanting more information and a few no reply yet..
Funny how the same car parked in virtually the same place on consecutive days can have some tickets cancelled and a few not ?
I will post up a picky of one of each at the end of the week,
Thanks for help so far
archie
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Thanks for that,
Confirming that the first list I posted up are all the nto.s I have received and all were replied within a day or two of receipt and were acknowledged by ealing as shown above..
Nothing else received
Thanks
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Looking at those DVLA logs it seems to me that Ealing are using the same dates for the date of RK request and the date of the "event". And all have reference "test001".
Conversely the entries for TFL ULEZ and Westminster show that the the date of the event is prior to the date of request. And they all have unique reference numbers. EG Westminster was a parking PCN on the 19/06/2025. When that wasn't paid or challenged then Westminster requested the RK details on the 17/07/2025. So four weeks have elapsed before the DVLA RK request, as would be expected. The RK request is made on the first day following the 28 day relevant period.
Because Ealing's requests are all made in July and the dates of "event" are the same as the requests, then this means that the DVLA would have returned your name and address as RK for the 30th June 2025 and onwards.
How many more PCNs did you receive? Please post up a list.
Please confirm you have no Westminster NTOs or TFL ULEZ PCNs?
You need to make sure that you challenge all of the NTOs within the time limits. You will likely have to appeal all of them to the independent adjudicator.
Stick to your guns. You purchased the car on the 30th June, that is the date you acquired the vehicle on the DVLA record and you were not the owner or Registered Keeper prior to the 30th of June. And you are not responsible for PCNs that predate the 30th June.
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4 to 6
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1st 3 picks
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Hi,many thanks to date but a slight update.. on the 23 July i was blue lighted to hospital with a heart attack, within 36 hours had stent and balloon inserted at 09.30 hrs and was back home that evening and never felt better .
so on with the saga,
I received several more tickets and duly responded and received near instant acknowledgment from Ealing,when no more arrived ( since the vehicle was up here with me ) I just mailed of hard copies of it back to Ealing.
I have uploaded a copy of the list sent with references.
I did as you suggested ref; dvla and enclosed is what came back from them ,as a side note I asked and received full info held on my licence, nice to see nil points and that I passed my test or one of several back in 1970 .....
Picks to upload in a minute
archie
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Thank you will post as above, should I send hard copy and electronic ?
Thanks Archie
Use the "Make a Challenge/Representation option on the online form on the Ealing website to submit. Once for each PCN although you could x-ref both PCNs to each other in the text of the challenges.
Take screen prints of what you submit. The entire pages, so scroll down if needs be. And don't forget to upload a PDF scan or JPEG photos of the new V5c.
I don't know about Ealing in particular but I would expect that you should get emailed acknowledgements within minutes.
So you shouldn't need to submit hard copies.
@ Archie
I also suggest that you email a Subject Access Request to the DVLA (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62692f63d3bf7f0e7d5b3dc6/make-a-subject-access-request-to-dvla-form-mis1065_270422.pdf). Fill in the form and then attach to an email to the address provided. See the instructions at the bottom of the form.
Ask the DVLA for copies of any requests made for the Registered Keeper's details together with the dates, times and means by which they were received.
And ask for copies of the responses the DVLA supplied and their dates, times and means of transmission.
I doubt if they'll give you anything in respect of dates prior to the 30th June 2025. But let's see what you get back.
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If the council were provided with the OP's details by DVLA as being the registered keeper on the relevant date then IMO the burden is the OP's not the council's.
Acquiring a vehicle and being the registered keeper are not necessarily related. A person could be the RK but not own a vehicle(V5C is not a certificate of ownership) and vice-versa.
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Could someone square this circle pl:
If 'The DVLA record confirms that I acquired the car on the 30th June 2025.' then why/how was the council given your details by DVLA as being the RK on the date of the contravention?
Who knows? Let Ealing enlighten us.
I can imagine how it might have happened, but thus far there is no firm evidence. And there may never be.
On the other hand the OP has a V5c issued on the 10th July that says he acquired the vehicle on the 30th June and that is firm evidence. So let Ealing refute it if they can.
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Could someone square this circle pl:
If 'The DVLA record confirms that I acquired the car on the 30th June 2025.' then why/how was the council given your details by DVLA as being the RK on the date of the contravention?
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Thank you will post as above, should I send hard copy and electronic ?
Thanks Archie
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,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
On a side note, some time between january and my purchase on 30th June this vehicle must have incured a ULEZ charge ?
and as i dont know the rules around this, are vehicles charged for every day they are parked within the zone on a public road or only when they move within this zone ?
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OK forget the premature NTO possibility, I can now see the date of the NTO is the 16th July, not the 10th.
We still need to see the NTO for the 13th June PCN?
The car would only have incurred a ULEZ charge on days it had been used (moving) within the ULEZ zone, assuming it had passed / triggered an enforcement camera. If it has been parked up legally and not moved then no ULEZ charge or other charges would have been incurred.
What makes you think there must have been a ULEZ charge prior to purchase?
If the intermediate owner, somebody apparently not registered with the DVLA, has been using the car within Greater London, then it wouldn't surprise me me if there are multiple PCNs outstanding for various infringements. Of course most of these should/would have gone to the person named on the V5c that you had. At least until he/she informed the DVLA that they were no longer the owner.
I feel inclined to put the onus on Ealing to explain why they have served NTOs on you in relation to alleged contraventions that occurred before you became the RK. So perhaps keep it simple and don't get into a convoluted history. Save that for the Adjudicator.
Something like:
Re: PCN xyz111 and xyz222
VRM ABC123
I was not the owner of this vehicle on the dates of these contraventions.
I purchased the car on the 30th June 2025.
The DVLA record confirms that I acquired the car on the 30th June 2025.
Attached is a copy of the latest V5c registration document confirming that I acquired the car on the 30th June 2025.
Clearly I cannot be held responsible for any parking contraventions that occurred before I acquired the car.
I can only assume that some error has occurred within your Penalty Charge Notice processing systems and that these Notices to Owner were served on me by mistake.
Please cancel these Notices to Owner.
I look forward to your confirmation of cancellations and that these matters are now closed.
Yours
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Rather like Enceladus, I had to squint to see the date of issue.
OP, this isn't going away unless you can produce proof as to why you may not be considered to be the person liable. In particular, will you pl address the issue of why DVLA have your detsils as the registered keeper on the relevant date.
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I have reposted and should now be legible, date of issue for both were 16/07/25.
The first i ever knew of this vehicle was the 28/06/25 as per my initial post,it wasnt owned by me nor had anything to do with me prior and i sent the V5 of with the date i purchased it, I taxed it online and have had confirmation of the D.D
and I have the V5 with my details and date of aquisition 30/06/25 all appear correct.
thanks for taking the time to help
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https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME144C82 https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME144C84
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I only see one NTO. You said there were two in your opening post.
The visible NTO has the information on the top right faded out and largely illegible, did you do that? I assume so, it is only required to redact or obscure your name and address, please leave everything else visible. Please rectify and repost. Both NTOs please.
The NTO that has been posted up refers to an alleged contravention on the 14th of June 2025. Is the NTO dated the 10/07/2025? If it is then it seems to have been issued prematurely. Where an on-site PCN has been served an NTO can only be issued and posted once the 28 day relevant period to pay or appeal has expired. In this case the 28 day relevant period expired on the 11/07/2025.
14/06/2025 = Sat = Date of PCN and day 1 of 14/28 day relevant periods
27/06/2025 = Fri = day 14 of relevant period and last day to pay at discount
10/07/2025 = Thu = day 27 of 28 day relevant period and date of issue of NTO
11/07/2025 = Fri = day 28 of relevant period and last day to pay or serve informal representation
12/07/2025 = Sat = 1st possible day to issue and post an NTO
A procedural impropriety has occurred. The NTO is therefore void and unenforceable, or have I got the dates wrong?
And what is the date of issue of the NTO for the 13th June 2025 PCN?
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DVLA must have you as the registered keeper on the date of the contravention, hence why the NTO was addressed to you.
As such you are presumed to be the 'owner' for regulatory purposes and liable for the penalty.
Your only arguments would seem to be that:
You were not the registered keeper on the DVLA's register on the relevant date; or.
You were but the vehicle was not being 'kept' by you.
The first implies an error by DVLA, the second by you e.g. it was being kept by someone else(in your case the person from whom you bought the car) and you did not check your V5C before sending to DVLA and the new V5C when received etc.
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https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME140RWJ
No idea, but the code on section 3 is 10 07 25 which would equate to when they had the v5 from myself.
thanks archie
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I can see the NTO now, thanks.
It's a parking contravention.
Therefore, as this applies:
Notice to owner
20.—(1) Where—
(a)a penalty charge notice has been given with respect to a vehicle under regulation 9, and
(b)the period of 28 days specified in the penalty charge notice as the period within which the penalty charge is to be paid has expired without that charge being paid,
the enforcement authority concerned may serve a notice (a “notice to owner”) on the person who appears to it to have been the owner of the vehicle when the alleged contravention occurred.
then how can this:
The V5 shows me as aquiring the vehicle on 30-06-2025. wich equates to all txts ,train tickets, insurance and times,?
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Thanks above, Ive just ticked the link and its worked fine so dontknow what to do/suggest.
The V5 shows me as aquiring the vehicle on 30-06-2025. wich equates to all txts ,train tickets, insurance and times,
We live in York and shortly after arriving back rang and paid the ULEZ. Hadnt been to London for years.
So intend to make representations stating in chronological order how i came to purchase the vehicle. I will attatch a copy of the txts and the recipients bank details and both the vendor and partners names.
On a side note, some time between january and my purchase on 30th June this vehicle must have incured a ULEZ charge ?
and as i dont know the rules around this, are vehicles charged for every day they are parked within the zone on a public road or only when they move within this zone ?
thanks all
archie
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As above, 'I also have all the txts between myself and the vendor with dates and times and the reg number but I do not have his address .'.
But the seller's* address must have been on the front page of the V5C. Surely you did check that the person who was purporting to have title to the car actually did, at least as far as the V5C was concerned.
Anyway, something's very amiss here because DVLA would only add you to the registered keeper's record as at the date you claim to have become the RK.
I'm not convinced by the hypothesis of: 'You bought it end of June, filled out your details on V5C and sent it off, but didn't change date.
DVLA updated register, but used the 25th Jan date as change of keeper.' but understand why it's been suggested by RichardW.
OP, can't access the NTOs in your link.
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Confusing....but it reads like:
Vehicle was sold in Jan; V5C was filled out but not sent off or submitted.
Offence was committed by intermediate owner 13/14 June.
You bought it end of June, filled out your details on V5C and sent it off, but didn't change date.
DVLA updated register, but used the 25th Jan date as change of keeper.
So you are showing as reg keeper when Ealing applied for details.
You have contact details, but no address, for the intermediate owner.
Where did you buy the car? Pub carpark or layby? That's almost always a bad idea.... Always best to update the details on line which should then get the right date. You presumably used this to tax it when you bought it?
Anyway you should be able to appeal with I was not the owner at time of offence with your evidence of purchase after the event. Not having an address won't help, and Ealing may well point to the V5C and refuse. One would hope an adjudicator would find in your favour at the tribunal however.
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Hi this should be it
https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME13WIUH
Ref the dates,, the january one was the date the original owner sold it to the person I bought it from
archie
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There's something wrong with your timeline.
I saw this vehicle advertised in autotrader on 28th june ,contacted the advertiser and agreed to come down to london on Monday 30th.
...........
sent off the V5 ,section 4 was signed and dated january 25
The date the V5 was signed obviously wasn't January 25th but neither could it have been June 25th.
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Sorry, want to help, but no good at all without seeing the NtOs in full. Just redact name and address.
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Hello all
I have today received 2 of these for consecutive days June 13th/14th.
Isaw this vehicle advertised in autotrader on 28th june ,contacted the advertiser and agreed to come down to london on Monday 30th.
Traveled down to london on the train and organised insurance on the way down. The vendor met us at the station, we drove to Ealing viewed the car etc and made a purchase ,did a bank transfer to his wife/partners account ,all good so off for the drive back up to York,no issues,
rang up the ULEZ and paid for the trip and have a receipt so all good,
sent off the V5 ,section 4 was signed and dated january 25... So thats where we are at,I have the vendors name ,his wife/partners name, her bank details (as we did a transfer) I also have all the txts between myself and the vendor with dates and times and and the reg number but I do not have his address .
So what is the best way forward
Thanks
I will now go find out how to add a picky :-[