Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: invisibleA on October 16, 2023, 11:42:34 pm


Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: cp8759 on December 01, 2023, 07:26:56 pm
Quote from: invisibleA on November 29, 2023, 01:00:42 pm
Okay thanks for getting back to me! Yes i've recieved the DVD with footage (i thought i had posted this in my last response but perhaps its dissapeared somehow). i can secretly publish an 'unlisted' video of it and send you a link if that helps for you to view? im not sure if i can post videos on this forum??
If you just post the link to the video (the youtube.com rather than youtu.be version) the forum automatically integrates the video into the page.

Quote from: invisibleA on November 29, 2023, 01:00:42 pm
I'm happy to write the letter (i'll probably email it), with what you state below. But can i ask you (as obviously i need to understand my actions), why i'm requesting info from them on the name and model of the CCTV camera, and how exactly could that info, get the case debunked? or is there some other motive for this request?
Have a read of Anish Raj Shrestha v Transport for London (2230256263, 26 August 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1dFUa8HEcUh2HyuDprMyvoP1NZ67kMZWA).
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: invisibleA on November 29, 2023, 01:00:42 pm
Okay thanks for getting back to me! Yes i've recieved the DVD with footage (i thought i had posted this in my last response but perhaps its dissapeared somehow). i can secretly publish an 'unlisted' video of it and send you a link if that helps for you to view? im not sure if i can post videos on this forum??

The camera is around 250+ metres away!!! , before it eventually zooms in (im actually shocked how distant it was, and how powerful the zoom lens is!) .  it only shows from 4:03-4:06, when my vehicle drives away.

i've attached the original PCN letter sent to me, below, for your perusal.

I'm happy to write the letter (i'll probably email it), with what you state below. But can i ask you (as obviously i need to understand my actions), why i'm requesting info from them on the name and model of the CCTV camera, and how exactly could that info, get the case debunked? or is there some other motive for this request?

Thank you!

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Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: cp8759 on November 28, 2023, 11:41:35 pm
Let's start with the basics, have you got the CCTV footage yet?

Also can you please post up the actual PCN? Just redact your postal address.

Lastly, please send this to foi@tfl.gov.uk:

Dear Transport for London,

There is a CCTV camera outside 85-87 Lee High Rd, London, SE13 5NS, which is visible here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/BEtciGcRnDnAudxM8

I would like to know the make and model of this camera. Please also provide any documentation confirming the make and model of the camera.

Yours faithfully,


Make a note to chase up a response 20 working days after you've made the request.
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: invisibleA on November 28, 2023, 12:01:29 am
ahh thats a nuisance to society!

@cp8759 Please Let me know regarding the previous, if I have any hope.

Thanks everyone.
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: Incandescent on November 27, 2023, 11:28:13 pm
Quote
Just wondered if there had been any verdict on the high court ruling yet?
Yes, and Transport for London won, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: invisibleA on November 27, 2023, 10:32:26 pm
Hello guys. hope you're all well here in the forum.

Just wondered if there had been any verdict on the high court ruling yet?

I received the DVD video.  what is recorded is from 4:03pm (frmo an extremely far distance, when i had already returned to my car, and i believe had turned on the engine, so it was running idle - it doesnt show me returning to my vehicle though).  - to 4:06, when i finally reversed and then drove away from the vicinity.

Would be great to know, if i have grounds to win appeal, as i dont think my idle presence for a few mins after had any negative  effect on the community at all!

Thanks
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: cp8759 on October 28, 2023, 11:35:17 pm
Let us know when you've got the video. Regardless of the judicial review outcome, there's another argument we can use.
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: Grant Urismo on October 24, 2023, 04:35:05 pm
Quote from: invisibleA on October 24, 2023, 11:16:38 am
Wow its in the high court only 2 days later!?!  Shows the priority TFL gets over things like human rights abuses, etc!

No, this has been dragging on for ages. You're not the first person to have this issue!
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: invisibleA on October 24, 2023, 11:16:38 am
Wow its in the high court only 2 days later!?!  Shows the priority TFL gets over things like human rights abuses, etc!
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: Incandescent on October 24, 2023, 10:36:42 am
What it means is the regulations do not permit them to use CCTV to enforce parking bays on Red Routes.  They can still enforce, but any PCNs they issue must be served directly to the vehicle or the driver at the parking bay by a uniformed Civil Enforcement Officer, (CEO).

Your PCN was served by post, with the evidence being produced by a CCTV camera overlooking the parking bay. So really, it doesn't matter what bay you were parked in, the plain fact is the PCN has been unlawfully served according to a panel of adjudicators of London Tribunals. However, the matter is not yet final because Transport for London have taken the decision to the High Court for a judicial review of that decision. The judicial review is tomorrow.
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: invisibleA on October 24, 2023, 09:43:43 am
Thanks for the tribunal documents. I had a quick skim through, specifically towards the end verdicts of each individual case. It appears that the majority of the PCNs that were ordered to be cancelled by the courts were based on "the PCN was served not by a CEO but by post on the basis of a
record produced by an approved device. For the reasons given at length above, we
hold that this was a procedural impropriety".
 
Could you explain in simple terms for me, what this means please?

in terms of my location: The PCN describes it as being 25-31 LEE HIGH ROAD, london, SE13.  But im 10% sure i was parked in front of 31 only.  However just 10 metres away - in front of 25-27, is a different red route sign (for disabled and loading only), than what was placed next to my vehicle.  Google maps appear to show these.
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: Incandescent on October 24, 2023, 01:28:41 am
Quote from: cp8759 on October 23, 2023, 11:25:00 pm
Can you give us a link to the exact location on google street view please?

Also have a read of this: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Red%20Route%20Panel%20Decision.pdf
As far as I can see, with a quick skim through, it all hinges on the use of the word "and" in a particular place in the regulations !
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: cp8759 on October 23, 2023, 11:25:00 pm
Can you give us a link to the exact location on google street view please?

Also have a read of this: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Red%20Route%20Panel%20Decision.pdf
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: invisibleA on October 23, 2023, 11:08:56 pm
Sorry typo.   LW05 VJV
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: cp8759 on October 23, 2023, 10:39:04 pm
Quote from: invisibleA on October 23, 2023, 06:09:12 pm
Im reluctant to show the original hard copy of the PCN, cautiously just incase anyone from TFL review team research and see these posts. However, as i can see it might help you, on top fo the PCN number listed previously, my car reg is LV05 VJV.
Even if TFL found this post, there is nothing on here that could help them. We beat authorities by using the law, we do not rely on tricks or hiding things from them.

In any case that number plate doesn't exist according to https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/?locale=en (https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/?locale=en), which probably explains why the PCN won't come up on https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn (https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn), which means that I can't make enquiries about the CCTV camera because I can't see any information about this ticket at all.
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: invisibleA on October 23, 2023, 06:09:12 pm
 Dear cp8759, thank you for that additional info.

Im reluctant to show the original hard copy of the PCN, cautiously just incase anyone from TFL review team research and see these posts. However, as i can see it might help you, on top fo the PCN number listed previously, my car reg is LV05 VJV.

In your view, do you feel as though i may have any defence or valid argument based on what i described previously? Or would it likely be a case of my only chance is if Automated CCTV camera shots as evidence by TFL, is legally ruled to be not accuate or acceptable.  ??

Hope to hear frmo you.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: cp8759 on October 20, 2023, 12:03:00 am
Quote from: invisibleA on October 18, 2023, 11:56:46 am
The PCN is GX10277652.
We need the number plate as well, and really it would be easier if you could just post the actual PCN on here.

Quote from: invisibleA on October 18, 2023, 11:56:46 am
Will they charge me for posting me a DVD? id rather not give them even more money than the fine charge, if i end up having to pay it, if possible.
No, it's free.

Quote from: invisibleA on October 18, 2023, 11:56:46 am
Also what am I waiting for exactly? is it the judical review court case of TFL long distance camera footage being used to determine drivers parking conduct? is that likely to be completelty within the next couple of weeks then, because im assuming even with the DVD being sent, i wont have till the end of this year to decide whether or not to pay the lower amount of the fine.
Don't worry about the lower amount for now, even if you challenge the PCN, TFL usually offers the discount anyway as long as your challenge is during the initial discount period. Requesting the DVD puts the case on hold anyway for a couple of weeks.

The judicial review is due to be heard on the 26 October, so we expect judgment in early November. That being said, there's another strategy that can be used.
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: Incandescent on October 18, 2023, 12:15:42 pm
There is no involvement with magistrates courts, the process is defined in legislation and is entirely civil not criminal unless you tell porkies on a witness statement, or a statutory declaration.

You are getting needlessly worked up. The maximum penalty is the PCN penalty. Bailiffs are only involved if you ignore everything, (i.e you don't pay or appeal the PCN).

I am sure our administrator will tell you the actual case on Red Route bays at London Tribunals.  It cannot yet be placed in the Key Cases list, because Transport for London have taken them to judicial review. Only when that is decided can it go in, unless the court agrees with Transport for London.  The court hearing is in November, I think.

Basically the message is - Worry not !
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: invisibleA on October 18, 2023, 11:56:46 am
Hi CP8759!  Thanks for your response.

The PCN is GX10277652.

Will they charge me for posting me a DVD? id rather not give them even more money than the fine charge, if i end up having to pay it, if possible.

Also what am I waiting for exactly? is it the judical review court case of TFL long distance camera footage being used to determine drivers parking conduct? is that likely to be completelty within the next couple of weeks then, because im assuming even with the DVD being sent, i wont have till the end of this year to decide whether or not to pay the lower amount of the fine.

Please advise, thanks!
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: invisibleA on October 18, 2023, 11:49:55 am
Hi Incandescent, Thanks for your response. 

The PCN is GX10277652.

sounds positive, that "Red Route parking bays cannot be enforced using CCTV". But do you have any official or legal info on that source, that I can utilise please? As obviously, if i just write to them in appeal stating that a random stranger on t'internet with likely no authority and who ive never met before, said you cant do that. it's not really goping to hold much weight for me! 

And clearly i dont want to have to travel to a magistrate court, have threatening bailiff letters for months, and lose sleep over the possibility of this fine eventually rising to hundreds and hundreds of pounds, in order to find out if your advice is correct!

If you can back up your statement and indicate what would be the right things for me to state in my appeal letter this coming week, i'd super appreciate it!

Thyank you!
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: cp8759 on October 17, 2023, 06:46:39 pm
As Incandescent says, post up the PCN, redact your name and address only.

Also phone TFL and ask for the video, they will send you a DVD in the post and put the penalty on hold while you wait.
Title: Re: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: Incandescent on October 17, 2023, 01:13:32 am
Post the PCN, please.

Red Route parking bays cannot be enforced using CCTV, after a recent case which Transport for London lost. However they've taken it to judicial review so it's not yet final.
Title: Advice Please! 46: Red Route parking in Lewisham London borough / TFL
Post by: invisibleA on October 16, 2023, 11:42:34 pm
Hi all.

I feel a bit robbed, so just want to check if there is any right of appeal against this...

I parked up on a Red Route which, if the pic i've attached here shows you, allows up to 30mins parking from 10am-4pm, so that I could enter and purchase from a shop right next to it. I arrived at approx 3:55pm (definately before 4pm), but the visit took a few mins longer than i expected, and im shown in a longer distanced TFL camera pic in their PCN letter to me, returning to the vehicle and starting the engine to leave at 4:06pm. no PCN was placed on the windscreen.

Do i have any reasonable grounds to appeal, considering i did arrive before 4pm, and was a customer of the shop behind it, and it being a relatively short period of time parked there?
I dont feel like ive taken the **** out of anyone, so it seems cruel to hammer me with a £80 (£160 If I dont pay soon). Is there a Grace period of 10mins, for example?

Hope to hear from somebody.

Thanks!

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