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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Goatzie1234 on October 16, 2023, 08:47:41 pm

Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: MrChips on January 12, 2024, 06:30:53 pm
Yes start a new thread.  Having looked at your video, there is room for optimism I think but I will save comment for when you start your own thread.
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: John U.K. on January 12, 2024, 05:06:00 pm
@henz

PLease have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and start your own thread.
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: henz on January 12, 2024, 04:55:30 pm
Hey all, I would just like to add that I had the same PCN issued to me on the 29th June 2023 and failed to win my appeal via a London Tribunals adjudicator in Nov of 2023. If details are requested for this I am happy to provide but the main reason why I was denied my appeal is because I entered the box junction onto stationary vehicles (even though there was plenty of room in front of the stationary vehicle).

Anyways I am here because we have again (my Dad this time) been caught by the same camera and after finding and reading this post this time around I would love to hear from you guys on what you think and if there are grounds for me to appeal here. Please find attached video evidence.

The car to the right in the other lane also cuts in a little where space was present. The way I see it is there is space for the car to exit on the other end but it just took a couple secs of stopping in between that triggered the happy snapping camera. What the footage does not capture is the space being filled and box junction being cleared before the crossing traffic starts moving. Also, does my video also start late where I'm just inside the box junction therefore the argument that @cp87699 made applies?

Would love to hear from you guys ASAP as letter came in only yesterday.

Thanks



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Hippocrates on December 16, 2023, 04:31:26 pm
I agree that it is rude.  Regarding names etc. all cases are available on a public register so that anybody can access the case details accordingly. Similarly, anyone can attend a hearing which is open to the public.

I would write back and tell them that they have enough staff to issue tickets! and that they are quite dysfunctional, like Barking and Dagenham.

Also, they had enough time and staff to issue a NOR.  I have had dealings with this mendacious outfit.

Perhaps they should take stock?
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Goatzie1234 on December 16, 2023, 01:32:25 pm
Just cant help but find this recent letter rude.


[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Goatzie1234 on December 09, 2023, 11:59:25 am
Hi cp8759
Please can you hide my name and car reg. thanks!
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: cp8759 on December 09, 2023, 09:27:49 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1lXMw1yAmb_ragp6KbhyxKUrFdAY2dCeD).
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Goatzie1234 on December 08, 2023, 09:45:12 am
Many thanks to cp8759!

My appeal was granted!

"The Enforcement Authority did not attend, either by telephone or in person.

The Enforcement Authority have produced no evidence in this case and, in particular, have failed to produce a copy of the Penalty Charge Notice."
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: cp8759 on October 23, 2023, 10:34:03 pm
I'll drop you a PM.
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Goatzie1234 on October 23, 2023, 05:06:22 pm
That would be greatly appreciated! many thanks for offering!
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: cp8759 on October 20, 2023, 06:55:04 pm
For the sake of keeping things simple, would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Incandescent on October 19, 2023, 12:53:57 pm
Looks good to me.
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Goatzie1234 on October 19, 2023, 12:37:11 pm
Many thanks for your assistance.

I have taken all the points raised here (word for word in many cases) and have drafted the below:

Dear sir/madam

As can be seen on the video evidence, my vehicle did not enter any box junction at 3:29, in fact, the video evidence confirms my car had already entered the box junction at the start of the recording (3:28). Unfortunately the video evidence does not show the time of entry, which must have been before the start of the recording.
Furthermore, the video evidence shows that my exit is clear on entering the box. Space large enough to accommodate the vehicle can be seen beyond the junction markings.
My vehicle did not stop for stationary vehicles. I was forced to stop by a moving vehicle (the bus) cutting across the lane in front of me. The bus and my vehicle became static at roughly the same time. Also, in order to avoid an accident, I was forced to give way to a motorcyclist trying to squeeze through a gap in front of me.
Once stopped, the video evidence clearly shows that there was enough room ahead of my vehicle to clear the box, however, safety concerns had precluded me from making use of this space. I did not make use of the space ahead as a precaution against the bus cutting further over once the traffic began moving again.
As no contravention of entering a box occurred at 3:29, and as on entering further into the box, enough space to accommodate my vehicle can be seen beyond the junction markings, the contravention alleged on the PCN did not occur and the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: JoCo on October 19, 2023, 12:17:10 pm
Greenwich parking are short staffed and don't defend cases which go to the tribunal.  They simply don't send in the paperwork, and the appeals are allowed*.

So it's worth a punt even with the flimsiest of cases [CP's argument is not flimsy].  Clearly Double or quits - but good odds!



* Since August 2023, 200 or so appeals have gone undefended. 

Only 2 have been refused.  I wonder if adjudicators were bored here and acted on the appellant's notes alone!
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: MrChips on October 19, 2023, 12:11:00 pm
Don't forget in my mind (and I think cp8579) the strongest point which is that the video doesn't show you entering the box (you are already sitting partially inside when it commences).  Adjudicators consistently throw out PCNs when there is no evidence of traffic conditions as you first enter.

That's because legally the offence is committed at the point of entry, and the regulations are very clear that if any part of your vehicle is in the box that counts as being inside.  Hence even though you are only partially in the box when the video starts, that's sufficient.
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: DancingDad on October 19, 2023, 12:03:23 pm
Just don't blame us if it fails.... there are no guarantees.

Two points to make.
You were forced to stop by a moving vehicle (the bus)
Once Stopped, there was receiving room but safety concerns (not knowing what the bus would do next) precluded you from continuing.
Don't prevaricate about the receiving room, the video seems to show enough space, that is all that will be looked at.

Post your draft before sending.
Don't miss deadlines.
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: John U.K. on October 19, 2023, 11:59:02 am
Quote
I will compose a draft now.

Post it here for comment first.
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Goatzie1234 on October 19, 2023, 11:43:11 am
ok - youve help change my mind :)
I am going to fight it.
I will compose a draft now.
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Incandescent on October 18, 2023, 11:44:34 pm
Quote from: Goatzie1234 on October 18, 2023, 09:12:18 pm
I’ve made my mind up. I am just going to pay it and get this out of my life. I can’t risk it jumping to double the amount. I guess in future I don’t cross the junction until the road ahead is entirely clear and just ignore the honks behind me.
Now you know how councils farm such huge amounts of money from motorists; they know from experience that the motorists (90%+), fold at the first hurdle so always refuse any representation no matter how valid.
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: DancingDad on October 18, 2023, 10:58:35 pm
Quote from: Goatzie1234 on October 18, 2023, 09:12:18 pm
I’ve made my mind up. I am just going to pay it and get this out of my life. I can’t risk it jumping to double the amount. I guess in future I don’t cross the junction until the road ahead is entirely clear and just ignore the honks behind me.

Your money, your choice.

All I can say is that I've seen slimmer chances win and more certain lose.
It isn't borderline that you stopped because of moving traffic...the bus was moving, forcing you to stop.
I reckon by looking at the video that there was receiving room had you chosen to use it and that is what an adjudicator will be looking at.
But although I think an adjudicator ought to give the benefit and cancel the PCN, cannot guarantee it
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Goatzie1234 on October 18, 2023, 09:12:18 pm
I’ve made my mind up. I am just going to pay it and get this out of my life. I can’t risk it jumping to double the amount. I guess in future I don’t cross the junction until the road ahead is entirely clear and just ignore the honks behind me.
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Goatzie1234 on October 18, 2023, 08:59:04 pm
Rewatching the footage now, it could look like I am trying to merge into the right lane. This actually wasn’t the case, I wanted the left lane as my exit was coming up. I vear to the right because of the bus as I knew I was in the box junction. The bus is merging into the right lane. I can assure you there is no space here for a vehicle! Perhaps I need to go and measure it. If I would have moved forward any further I would have been in front of the bus and caused a nightmare
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: DancingDad on October 18, 2023, 08:33:57 pm
I'm not sure that you stopped for stationary vehicles.
The initial stop was IMO more to do with the bus cutting across and at that time the bus was moving...you both became static at about the same time.
After that, there is room for you to clear the box but it is easy to believe that you didn't as a precaution against the bus cutting further over when traffic moved.

TBH not sure how an adjudicator would view it, the first part is IMO good enough to argue that the stop was not due to stationary vehicles, the second not sure.
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Goatzie1234 on October 18, 2023, 02:50:30 pm
Sorry,

I had said that the roads were very congested on that day, I believed I had right of way as the traffic on the other road was merging on to the road I was on. The bus did not adhere to the right of way, I gave the bus a wide berth in order not to cause a collision as it was turning as I was in the buses blind spot, and how the was a reckless motorcyclist weaved in front of me. I mentioned that I am not clear on what else I could have done here. Obviously I could not reverse back, and how I was sure not to cause an obstruction, the traffic crossing the junction was flowing fine.
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: John U.K. on October 18, 2023, 02:24:56 pm
Here is the rejection - we need to see what you wrote to them

(https://i.ibb.co/nMwH9Xj/IMG-1353.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tpH7g0D)

(https://i.ibb.co/KVfvjpB/IMG-1354.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vLTnx6f)
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Goatzie1234 on October 18, 2023, 01:15:37 pm
Damn, I should have waited.
I already registered a appeal which got rejected. In hindsight, my appeal was not very good as I was quite annoyed at the time and the limit of 1000 characters runs out very quick. I had said that
To you think it is worth taking this to the next step in the appeals process?

https://ibb.co/tpH7g0D
https://ibb.co/vLTnx6f
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: cp8759 on October 17, 2023, 11:41:54 pm
The video starts with the vehicle already stationary in the box, it then starts moving and stops again. The contravention is at the point of entry, which was not at 3:29, it must have been 3:28 or earlier, therefore this is an easy challenge:

Dear Royal Borough of Greenwich,

The video confirms my vehicle did not enter any box junction at 3:29, on the contrary the video confirms my car had already entered the box junction at 3:28, and unfortunately the video does not show the point of entry, which must have been before the start of the video.

Furthermore, the video shows that there was space beyond the box which my vehicle could have used to exit the box, I did not make use of this space as doing so would have involved cutting in front of the bus.

As no contravention of entering a box occurred at 3:29, the contravention alleged on the PCN did not occur and the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Send it online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation screen.
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Goatzie1234 on October 17, 2023, 02:45:42 pm
Thanks Mike
There might be space in front of me but if I would have filled it enough to get out of the box junction there would have been contact between me and the bus.
This is the annoying part. I’m genuinely not sure what else I could have done in this situation and I resent having to pay Greenwich council, who are a dreadful council btw. But then, I can’t afford to risk it. They really have you over a barrel!
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: guest17 on October 16, 2023, 10:28:50 pm
What a silly set up. The OP's direction of travel is covered by traffic lights yet they don't stop traffic converging from the left. So we are left with a nice little trap--KERCHING!

Three key considerations:-

1) As already said --there is space for the OP's vehicle to completely exit the box, he/she is merely being careful of the bus.

2) The video IMO shows that the OP's exit was clear on entering the box.

3) I see no distinction between a vehicle entering the box and causing an obstruction to the OP's vehicle OR a vehicle which conveges on the extremity of the box thereby causing an obstruction. Both prevent an anticipated exit when that exit was clear on entry to the box.

Mike
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Goatzie1234 on October 16, 2023, 10:21:40 pm
I fear I might just have to pay up.
They are printing money from this junction…

Really doesn’t seem right…
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Incandescent on October 16, 2023, 10:13:39 pm
Quote from: Goatzie1234 on October 16, 2023, 09:50:30 pm
Thanks for checking.
To be honest. I am a bit confused on what I should have done here.
The lights turn green at the same time from where I left and the road merging with the bus.
As can be seen from google maps, there is not room for a car to wait before where the traffic merges.
If I had gone any further I would have made contact with tepee bus. If I had not entered the box junction I would have been there all day and infuriated a whole lane of traffic
It'a typical crappy council traffic lights arrangement. They have no incentive whatsoever to improve matters as it will be making them shedloads of money. Just your luck a bus came along !
You could submit reps on the basis that a motorist going forward from your direction, and seeing a space beyond the YBJ, has an expectation that the junction traffic lights will be operated to allow his direction to proceed. When you entered the box, there was space on the other side. It's not as if there was stationary traffic there when you entered. So that would be my argument, but with the venality of London councils, I expect you will have to take them to London Tribunals and risk the full PCN penalty, as there is no discount option there.
So, stand your ground or pay-up !

Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: MrChips on October 16, 2023, 10:11:29 pm
There's a couple of things in your favour.

The video starts after you've already entered the box.  Usually it has to show the moment of entry as that's the moment the offence is committed.  You are only slightly in the box at the start but you are stationary so you could have entered many seconds earlier when traffic conditions were different.  Without the video showing that moment, who's to say?

You also may have space to exit at the other end.  To me it looks like you come to a halt because you see that motorbike trying to squeeze through the gap and you stop to avoid an accident / give way.
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Goatzie1234 on October 16, 2023, 09:50:30 pm
Thanks for checking.
To be honest. I am a bit confused on what I should have done here.
The lights turn green at the same time from where I left and the road merging with the bus.
As can be seen from google maps, there is no room for a car to wait before where the traffic merges.
If I had gone any further I would have made contact with the bus. If I had not entered the box junction I would have been there all day and infuriated a whole lane of traffic





[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Incandescent on October 16, 2023, 09:33:57 pm
It's not your wheels that count but how much of the car intrudes into the box. I would say this is not de-minimis because you are partly blocking traffic emerging from under the bridge in the outside lane.  It's difficult to see a win here, I'm afraid.
Title: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
Post by: Goatzie1234 on October 16, 2023, 08:47:41 pm
Hi all,

I was wondering if you feel I have grounds for appeal on the PCN I recently received.

This was on a very congested day and the lights at the box junction change very quick. It does appear that there is room in front of me, probably enough for me to fit, however there is a double decker bus turning and I wanted to give a wide berth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPkknDQEx80

PCN

https://ibb.co/km7w9my
https://ibb.co/Kh18MVP

Box junction is here https://maps.app.goo.gl/VFTpZFmoq6AvKaJ46
Peartree way

Would this qualify as de minimis ?
https://ibb.co/xq02zjv
https://ibb.co/S5R6jK4

From the PCN screenshots it looks like just one wheel in the yellow

Any help would be much appreciated

G