Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: mothepro on October 16, 2023, 07:35:31 pm
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Thanks :) I have in fact done so....
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If I were you I would still get the bank to issue a new card.
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Yes, that also struck me.... Its all copy and paste it seems.
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That'll do nicely.
Well Done.
I am a little confused on the apology for delay--- 3 days at most, that is some sort of record for speedy reply.
I suspect they have a policy and template on these and are accepting when the scam is evident
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I have received a response from Westminster....
Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) we apologise for the delay in our
response.
We have carried out a full review of your case and the PCN has been cancelled on this occasion only, and you are no
longer liable for the charge.
Thank you to everyone for your help and thank you especially to CP for alerting me to the scam!
Regards
Mo
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They must know because the CEO was there to give you a PCN. So, irrespective of whose fault it was that it was there the council must know because the CEO surely removed it and reported it, didn't they!!!
Absolutely, I'm sure the CEO would have made detailed notes of this, or not.
As others have said above, cancel your bank card and order a new one. Just because they haven't been used yet doesn't mean they won't try, and it is a virtual certainty that your card details are probably already on the dark web being sold to the highest bidder.
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OP, I'd also weave into your reps somewhere that 'as the authority know, there was a fake QR code placed on the traffic sign/payment machine(delete whichever does not apply pl)..'
They must know because the CEO was there to give you a PCN. So, irrespective of whose fault it was that it was there the council must know because the CEO surely removed it and reported it, didn't they!!!
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I have checked the statement and there was no fraudulent usage of the account. I assume that as I did not actually enter the OTP (as noted in my original post, it took a while to arrived and I had already left at that point), there was no way for them to gain access to my account.........
Don't assume
If you entered card details, they have them and potentially could use.
Cancel the card.
If you entered account details, discuss with your bank.
+1 - card issuers and banks have 24hr fraudlines, so don't wait until tomorrow.
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I have checked the statement and there was no fraudulent usage of the account. I assume that as I did not actually enter the OTP (as noted in my original post, it took a while to arrived and I had already left at that point), there was no way for them to gain access to my account.........
Don't assume
If you entered card details, they have them and potentially could use.
Cancel the card.
If you entered account details, discuss with your bank.
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Re the 'alert' on Westminster's website.
Thanks a lot Westminster. No para. saying if you see one of these pl report as soon as possible etc. If it was racist graffiti or similar I'm certain they'd be contact details galore.
By all means tell them your sad account and add that although you fell victim to the scammers, this was only in part because you didn't receive the link which would have given them access to your accounts. Unfortunately you got a PCN which given that the misleading information was displayed on council property you're certain they will cancel. You would add that the 'alert' on the council's website - which you saw after the event- is very limp. The council must be aware that this scam could cost unwitting motorists £'0000s and yet there isn't even a contact number for motorists to report occurrences. If you had fallen victim and had suffered losses then you can assure them that you would have written a very different letter to the council. Given the potential exposure of motorists to this scam you hope the council is giving it the priority and resources needed, which isn't apparent from the website at present.
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I have checked the statement and there was no fraudulent usage of the account. I assume that as I did not actually enter the OTP (as noted in my original post, it took a while to arrived and I had already left at that point), there was no way for them to gain access to my account.
I had alreadsy sent an appeal before the more recent comments on here, my appeal was along the lines of being victim of a scam and asking for them to waive the PCN (with an offer to pay for the parking time). I will update the response here.
Thanks
Mo
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See where you are coming from but still think a gentle plea with explanation may be better then an assertive at the moment.
Just differing tactics, your approach is still available if the discretion plea fails, WEstminster are not one of the authorities that reject automatically.
The link and a copy to their warning should be kept anyway, inherently by saying they are removing they are accepting that things are not clear enough
We are actually in complete agreement as to approach, I think the representation should basically be along the lines of "I've been a victim of this scam, I've had to cancel my bank card to prevent fraudulent use of my account, very sorry but none of this is my fault, please cancel".
If they prove obtuse, we can then use the legalistic approach at the tribunal.
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Good spot CP... I had read that but didn't put two and two together.
Does likely mean that the PCN is valid and that there was a charge which wasn't paid.
I'm not so sure. Yes it's not the council's fault, but if the QR code was over the top of the actual payment instructions, and it appeared legit, it seems to me that there wasn't adequate guidance to motorists as to the effect of the traffic order..........
See where you are coming from but still think a gentle plea with explanation may be better then an assertive at the moment.
Just differing tactics, your approach is still available if the discretion plea fails, WEstminster are not one of the authorities that reject automatically.
The link and a copy to their warning should be kept anyway, inherently by saying they are removing they are accepting that things are not clear enough
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Good spot CP... I had read that but didn't put two and two together.
Does likely mean that the PCN is valid and that there was a charge which wasn't paid.
I'm not so sure. Yes it's not the council's fault, but if the QR code was over the top of the actual payment instructions, and it appeared legit, it seems to me that there wasn't adequate guidance to motorists as to the effect of the traffic order.
After all, if the signs and payment instructions had simply been vandalized / spray painted over such that payment could not be made, the motorist would normally not be deemed to be in contravention, as it is for the council to provide adequate guidance. I don't see why the fact that the vandals in this instance are scammers would make any difference. This is rather different from people paying the CC or ULEZ charges on a scam website, because the authority is not responsible for providing web search results on a motorist's web browser, but it is responsible for providing signage telling motorists how to pay.
If a motorist sees an apparently legitimate sign saying scan this QR code, that is very different to going online and paying the congestion charge charge to http://pay-this-scammy-website-for-cheap-congestion-charge-scam.com
@mothepro did you find any unauthorised activity on your card? Have you contacted the bank to cancel your card and order a new one?
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Good spot CP... I had read that but didn't put two and two together.
Does likely mean that the PCN is valid and that there was a charge which wasn't paid.
Can only suggest that you explain to Westiminster and ask for them to use their discretion to cancel, use whatever you have such as the OTP and if available any other info on your phone to show.
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WOW. Thank you so much for alerting me to this.
I will check the card as you suggested.
Thanks!
Mo
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There was a sign with a QR code to scan which I did, it took me to pay-by-phone.co.uk
Have there been any unauthorised transactions on your card?
I ask because upon checking https://www.westminster.gov.uk/parking/parking-fees-and-charges it says this:
(https://i.imgur.com/cwYtSqD.png)
It looks like you have been a victim of this, the real PayByPhone site is https://www.paybyphone.co.uk/ rather than pay-by-phone.co.uk (which while a good copy at first sight, is clearly a scam).
While it is very unfortunate, it is ultimately not your fault and I don't think the council should be penalising you for this. Perversely, if there have been any unauthorised transactions that would help your case. In any event I suggest you cancel your bank card and order a new one.
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I am attaching a copy of the OTP received
Thanks
Mo
Hi, sorry to 'bump' this. Just wondering if there is anything I can do with this OTP?
Thanks
Mo
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I am attaching a copy of the OTP received
Thanks
Mo
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The other point to note is that the contravention is for failure to pay the parking charge, but you did pay. ..........
That's what was going through my mind, £0 to pay and you paid £0 seems to be correct.
But they may be translating failure to register parking as failure to pay or there may be a charge and the issue was with the pay by phone app?
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The other point to note is that the contravention is for failure to pay the parking charge, but you did pay. Time is always allowed to obtain a parking ticket or session. The only argument is it taking 15 minutes, which in the circumstances seems reasonable enough, especially as the charge allowed parking all day, so you never ran out of parking time.
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We did actually get an OTP for one of the attempts a little later which I still have. Can that help in any way?
Yes! Yes it can!
Can you upload a screenshot of the OTP message?
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Unfortunately I did not record it - I don't usually use a smartphone and only take it on occasion for navigation, but I am not familiar with how to record screens.
We did actually get an OTP for one of the attempts a little later which I still have. Can that help in any way?
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Phoning is usually a much longer or more complicated option, so I used the QR code.
Maybe so, but you can't ignore the instructions on the sign simply because you're in a hurry, so you're on the back foot with this one.
I take it you didn't think of using screen recording software to document the problems you were having?
Did the OTP ever arrive?
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The place I parked was here I think
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.512484,-0.1496862,3a,67.3y,162.57h,98.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOhJQwL-Xbgk8o4k_94bYMg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
The QR code was there on the sign and clearly said to use that to park. Phoning is usually a much longer or more complicated option, so I used the QR code. I have no idea what Wesminster's policies are - I don't believe I have parked in Westminster in the last 15 years. I always travel to town by underground - its much quicker - and only took the car this time as I have breathing problems and was on my way to a doctors appointment for that very reason, and getting there and back on the underground would be too tiring for me. So when the website told me that there was n0 cost and I could park there for 12 hours and 35 minutes at no cost, I assumed parking payments were not in force for some reason at that location. As I said, I rechecked my details - car and location and it kept giving me the same message. Even though it was asking for payment of £0 it still seemed to want me to put in my card details, which I assumed I needed to do, so I attempted to do so three times. The OTP didn't arrive and at that time I was already running late for my appointment so I had to go. I assumed that as it was £0 cost anyway, hopefully it wouldn't matter that I hadn't finalised the parking process.
Regards
Mo
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I looked at the previous GSV view, (November 2022) and was more successful. Here is what I think is one of the bays on that street. This one is opposite Claridges.
You can see the Pay-to-Park sign below the main sign : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/faPhgYhPkRzrFwFd7
However, the PtP sign won't zoom so it's readable unfortunately.
If you decide to take them to London Tribunals, the first thing an adjudicator is going to ask is, why didn't you follow the instructions on the main sign, once Pay-to-Park didn't work ?
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rooke Street seems to be one where the google car was on foot.
So you can't see the signs.
Somewhere round here but please pinpoint if you can.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5128176,-0.1479526,3a,75y,93.53h,80.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seXET00jcXga42Pi-XGGxjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
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Hi,
I was in Westminster and found a street parking space. There was a sign with a QR code to scan which I did, it took me to pay-by-phone.co.uk
I put in the location code and car details and set it for two hours. This was at about 14:25. The page told me that two hours was the same at 12 hours 35 minutes and came up to £0. I went back and tried it again for 1 hour or 3 hours and it kept giving the same end time and £0 cost. I clicked to proceed and put in my card details and it asked me to input an OTP. However I did not receive any OTP to my phone. I tried again with a different card and again it didnt work. At that point I was running very late for my appointment and just left it. When I returned, I saw I had received a PCN.
Has anyone experienced anything similar? Is there any grounds for appealing this?
Thanks
Mo
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