Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: dave-o on October 16, 2023, 11:21:39 am

Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on July 31, 2024, 12:43:13 pm
If you have the time and inclination, why not. Personally, I wouldn’t bother.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on July 31, 2024, 12:40:14 pm
 I have been considering:

a) Sending a Data Deletion Request to both organisations
b) After the request has been actioned, or some time elapsed, submit a Subject Access Request
c) If they still hold any information they are not supposed to, report them to the ICO

Worth doing?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on July 25, 2024, 05:11:05 pm
Sure, here they are:

(https://i.ibb.co/47JXB8n/DCBChickens1.jpg)


(https://i.ibb.co/zN3y8kv/DCBChickens2.jpg)
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on July 25, 2024, 04:14:53 pm
You can take a photo of it and redact just the claim number and your personal details and then post it here using Imgur or any other free photo hosting site.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on July 25, 2024, 03:41:06 pm
That was quick. I have a Letter to Defendant (doc) and Notice of Discontinuation (pdf).  How would you like to receive this?  Would you intend to obscure personal details?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on July 25, 2024, 01:13:29 pm
When you receive your copy of the N279, please show us a copy. I will get it added to the almost 400 cases evidenced over on the MSE forum.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on July 25, 2024, 01:03:06 pm
If anyone deserves their time being wasted it's DCB, so yes, I will absolutely do this!
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on July 25, 2024, 12:45:15 pm
You could email DCB Legal with the following (just for fun):

Quote
Re: [Claim Number]

It has come to my attention that although a Notice of Discontinuance (Form N279) has been filed with the court, a copy has not been served on me as required by CPR 38.3(1)(b). This failure to serve the Notice constitutes a breach of the Civil Procedure Rules.

I expect you to serve a copy of the N279 Notice of Discontinuance on me without further delay, and in any event no later than 7 days from the date of this message.

If you fail to comply with this request within the specified timeframe, I will have no alternative but to apply for an order from the court compelling you to serve the Notice. Additionally, I will seek sanctions for non-compliance and hold you liable for all costs incurred as a result of this failure, including the costs of any application made to the court.

I hope that further court intervention will not be necessary and look forward to your prompt compliance with the CPR.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on July 25, 2024, 12:18:42 pm
Enjoy a bit of Schadenfreude at their expense.

Haha!  Fair point, i will!
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on July 25, 2024, 12:16:35 pm
It is over. They have discontinued, as expected. They should have sent you a copy of the N279 discontinuation form. There is not much else you can do about it now.

You cannot claim any "expenses" now as they have discontinued. The only way you could have got anything out of them is if it had gone to a hearing and you'd attended and won, where you could claim up to £95 for lost wages plus any travelling expenses.

You can of course try and sue them in court but that is very difficult to prove that they've done anything contractually wrong against you.

It is a win. It cost them the court fee, any legal costs, postage and manpower. Enjoy a bit of Schadenfreude at their expense.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on July 25, 2024, 11:59:46 am
I managed to get through on the phone this morning (I was "only" 48 in the queue this time!).  The clerk informed me that the case has been discontinued.  So this is a success right?  I'm going to follow his instructions on how to get a confirmation of this from the court anyway.

Is there anything else I need to be aware of?

Also I would love to claim some expenses against First Parking, as I have wasted countless hours of my life dealing with these scammers and their despicable minions.  I am not sure if I can claim for hours, but i should at least be able to claim for the cost of postage etc. right?

Thanks to all who helped.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on July 24, 2024, 12:13:10 pm
For CNBC emails, if you don't receive an instant auto-response, then you need to keep trying and, if necessary, use a different email agent. As long as the email was not bounced back with an error message, it was received by the other party. Whether they can find it or not is a problem. However, you would have proof of having sent it as evidenced in the email headers.

Just like snail mail, even if it is signed for, there is no proof that it was given or seen by whoever was meant to read it. Your job is to prove you sent it. That is the best you can do.

So, were both your recorded delivery packages signed for?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on July 24, 2024, 11:57:20 am
It'd be wise to get back on the phone and confirm then - long phone queues are, unfortunately, an inevitability with courts being as stretched as they are.

I'm position 140 this time!
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on July 24, 2024, 11:09:57 am
It'd be wise to get back on the phone and confirm then - long phone queues are, unfortunately, an inevitability with courts being as stretched as they are.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on July 24, 2024, 11:07:07 am
Quote
I was keen to send by registered post this time as when I emailed it last time it didn't get there.

How are you sure your email "didn't get there"? You can forensically prove that your email was delivered by the information in the headers of the sent email. Can you prove, assuming that someone actually signed for your post, that they actually gave it to the correct person or department or maybe they simply binned it. Who knows?


I'm not talking about forensics, but practicalities.  It didn't appear on MCOL and when I called they confirmed it hadn't been received.

I do have proof of postage for the one sent last week.

No I haven't received anything from the claimant since the latest round (allocation).
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on July 24, 2024, 10:19:30 am
Don't the CCBC and court email addresses send back auto-acknowledgements, @b789, or am I misremembering?

I believe that this is now at the local court. The OP has sent their WS by snail mail to both the local court and the claimant/solicitor.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on July 24, 2024, 10:17:19 am
Don't the CCBC and court email addresses send back auto-acknowledgements, @b789, or am I misremembering?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on July 24, 2024, 10:09:06 am
Quote
I was keen to send by registered post this time as when I emailed it last time it didn't get there.

Who told you to send anything by "registered post". Have you checked to see whether they were signed for? If someone refuses to sign for anything, all you then have is proof of non-delivery! What a waste of time and money.

How are you sure your email "didn't get there"? You can forensically prove that your email was delivered by the information in the headers of the sent email. Can you prove, assuming that someone actually signed for your post, that they actually gave it to the correct person or department or maybe they simply binned it. Who knows?

Sending anything by post to the court is fraught with issues. They are overwhelmed and it is possible that your snail mail letter is under a pile of other unopened letters.

In future, if you really insist on sending anything by snail mail, at least use the free, proof of posting service at any post office. That is all you need to prove posting. Two working days later it is deemed delivered and you can take that to court as evidence of having done your side of the work.

Did you receive a copy of the claimants bundle? (Their WS)

You should try calling the court first thing in the morning or better still, find the email address for the court (which you should have used in the first place) and email the court manager and ask what the status is of your case.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on July 24, 2024, 09:43:34 am
Just hoping for some reassurance here, if possible.  I sent the documents to the court (using the address stated on the allocation) and to the claimant on the 18th, registered post.  There's nothing on MCOL about them yet though.  I tried calling to check, but was number 79 in the queue!

Is it normal for it to take this long?

I was keen to send by registered post this time as when I emailed it last time it didn't get there.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on July 09, 2024, 01:36:18 pm
Expect another few attempts to contact you from DCB Legal, usually offering to settle for less and less. Do not waiver. They will discontinue. No need for crystal balls.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on July 09, 2024, 11:51:37 am
Expect to receive either a phone call, text message or an email from DCB Legal over the next few days offering to settle for a reduced amount. Advice is to ignore any offer. They may do this several times, reducing the requested amount. They have been known to go as low as £25. Don’t fall for this. They will discontinue.

Your crystal ball was indeed correct!  They called this morning to offer £170, which I of course refused.  I will call the court to find out about the fee.

Thank you for your advice.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on July 03, 2024, 03:39:27 pm
Again, reading back through the thread, did you ever get an explanation from the CNBC as to why they resent you a copy of the N1SDT claim form several months after the issue date?

Also, we never saw what you actually put in your defence. You should have show us at least the first part of the defence up to an including all the bits you edited and added. Did you use the whole defence template?

DCB Legal discontinuances are contingent of the whole of the defence template being used. Whilst there was a whole discussion about the landowner contract, the defence only needed a simple response to the cause of action alleged in the PoC. There wasn’t a cause of action stated. The defendant only had to agree that they were the keeper of the vehicle at the time. They could acknowledge that the driver had permission from the landowner to park where they did and that was all.

The whole point of the template defence is that it covers everything, including landowner contracts, signage etc., and it can all be expanded on at WS time. If the OP didn’t use the whole defence template or edited parts of it apart from the paras about driver/keeper and the simple statement for their own para, then there is the possibility that the claimant sees a chink in the armour.

So, can we please ses the first 10 or so paragraphs of the defence submitted?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on July 03, 2024, 02:44:50 pm
Just reading back through the thread, I see that it is a DCB Legal issued claim. I fully expect them to issue a discontinuance in the next few days. They will not want to pay the hearing fee as you have shown that you are not low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and are willing to fight this all the way.

Expect to receive either a phone call, text message or an email from DCB Legal over the next few days offering to settle for a reduced amount. Advice is to ignore any offer. They may do this several times, reducing the requested amount. They have been known to go as low as £25. Don’t fall for this. They will discontinue.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on July 03, 2024, 02:37:14 pm
You have until 4pm on Friday 26th July to serve your WS. It should be served as an attachment to an email. It should be no more than 50 sides of A4 (25 pages) otherwise it will have to be submitted as a papaer bundle. If so, you can drop it off at the court on the day or if sending by post, make sure that post it first class no later than Wednesday 24th July. The claimants copy has no restriction and should be sent by email.

You have over three weeks to prepare your WS. This is your opportunity to tell your side of things. Your WS is written in the first person. No “the defendant did this...”. It should be “I did this...”. As with the defence, every paragraph should be numbered sequentially.

Don’t rush to submit your WS. Whilst the claimant has the same deadline, you should wait and see if they submit theirs first. If so, you have an opportunity adjust yours, if necessary.

It is worth checking with Uxbridge county court to see whether the claimant has paid the trial hearing fee. If they have not, you can ask the court to have the claim struck-out and you can claim any costs you have incurred, including your time spent dealing with this as they will have acted unreasonably by failing to make the payment. Be aware though, that some courts are known be much more lenient with claimants than defendants and will often give them a second chance to correct their failures.

Interesting that the order isn’t deemed served until today, 3rd July. The order expects the claimant to have paid the trial fee by the date of the order which is an impossibility. Certainly check with the court to see if the trial hearing fee has been paid by Friday.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on July 03, 2024, 09:51:07 am
I have finally received the court allocation papers, to my local court as requested:

(https://i.ibb.co/nBxbD2w/Allocation1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/rmk9jFy/Allocation2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/6wTWmsD/Allocation3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/VS9F51F/Allocation4.jpg)

So a few questions:

- My understanding is that I need to submit my defence, plus any subsequent additions, to the court and the claimant, to arrive before 26th July - which doesn't leave a great deal of time
- The part about the claimant having to make a payment 28 days prior is not really relevant at this point, as this is referring to a future unspecified date, not the document submission date in this communication?

Thanks
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on February 05, 2024, 03:57:37 pm
It can take quite a while to show up on MCOL. Weeks or more. Your auto-response email from the CNBC together with your CC of the meal you sent are proof that you sent it.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on February 05, 2024, 03:54:15 pm
Thanks, and will it show up on MCOL soon?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on February 05, 2024, 01:45:06 pm
As long as your email triggered an auto-response, it means that the CNBC has received it.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on February 05, 2024, 01:32:16 pm
I did get an acknowledgement titled "AUTO RESPONSE DO NOT REPLY - CCBC AQ Acknowledgment"

The opening para does state:

Thank you for your email which may be in relation to delays you have experienced with our service. I am sorry to hear you are unhappy with the service provided by us......

So hopefully this is standard and it doesn't think this is a complaint?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on February 05, 2024, 11:40:24 am
Apologies for forgetting to add the .uk to the ccbcaq.gov.uk email address.

Did you get an auto-response from the CNBC? It should come immediately after you send it. Also, did you address it to the claimants solicitor and cc in yourself?

I think you still want to know why the CNBC have resent you an out of date claim form.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on February 05, 2024, 11:30:23 am
That's submitted (and copied).  Will it show up on the MCOL timeline at some point?

I have tried calling twice (between 8:30 and 9:00) but have been on hold for more than 30 mins, is there a much point in speaking to them now the N180 has been submitted?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on February 05, 2024, 10:31:16 am
It's ccbcaq@justice.gov.uk (ccbcaq@justice.gov.uk)
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on February 05, 2024, 10:27:26 am
I would suggest you call the CNBC at 0830 in the morning and ask them why they have resent a claim form that has already been acknowledged and a defence submitted. It is unusual that they should do this, especially if it is only because the stay has been lifted.

In the meantime, the OP needs to download their own N180 here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65200dcf244f8e000d8e7183/N180_1023.pdf

Complete it and email it as a PDF attachment to ccbcaq@justice.gov. Importantly, also address it to DCB Legal and cc it to yourself. This way, you have complied with the requirement to include the claimants solicitor and you also receive a copy. No one can later turn around and say it was not received. However, you should receive an auto-acknowledgement from the CNBC almost immediately.

The OP mentioned a "DCP 26.3" request to have it transferred to their local court. I don't know what a "DCP 26.3" is but it is not necessary. Even if the OP does not fill in the section of the N180 for a court location, the CNBC will allocate it to a local court anyway.

Hi, the email, address you stated gives this error:

The address you sent your message to wasn't found at the destination domain

Was this a typo or is there another way to submit it?  Should it be .gov.uk?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on February 02, 2024, 08:44:13 am
Thank you for your advice, I will follow it.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on January 31, 2024, 03:46:45 pm
On the form, "In the" can be left blank.

"Claim No." is self explanatory.

"To be completed by" and then your name.

You are the "1st" "Defendant".

A1 should be "No" as you do not want mediation. It is a waste of everyones time in a parking case.

C1 is "Yes".

D1 is "No" and put the following in the box:

Quote
I am not content for the case to be heard 'on the papers' because that seems to disproportionately give an advantage to a legally represented party. I feel strongly after all these years of intimidating demands from this aggressive parking firm and its agents, that I need a voice at an attended hearing. 

I wish to question the Claimant about their evidence at a hearing in person and to expose omissions and any misleading or incorrect evidence or assertions.

Given the Claimant is a firm who complete cut & paste parking case paperwork for a living, having this case heard solely on papers would appear to put the Claimant at an unfair advantage, especially as they would no doubt prefer the Defendant not to have the opportunity to expose the issues in the Claimants template submissions or speak as the only true witness to events in question.

If you are filling in the form using a PDF editor, if you use Arial font at 9pt, it will all fit in the text box.

E1 is your local county court or wherever you prefer to have the claim heard. https://www.find-court-tribunal.service.gov.uk/search-option

E2 "No" unless you do have an "expert witness".

E3 "1" unless you have additional "witnesses".

E4 is self explanatory. If you do have any dates, make sure you block them out with padded days either side.

The rest is self explanatory and you sign the form as "1st" "Defendant".
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on January 31, 2024, 03:21:27 pm
I would suggest you call the CNBC at 0830 in the morning and ask them why they have resent a claim form that has already been acknowledged and a defence submitted. It is unusual that they should do this, especially if it is only because the stay has been lifted.

In the meantime, the OP needs to download their own N180 here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65200dcf244f8e000d8e7183/N180_1023.pdf

Complete it and email it as a PDF attachment to ccbcaq@justice.gov. Importantly, also address it to DCB Legal and cc it to yourself. This way, you have complied with the requirement to include the claimants solicitor and you also receive a copy. No one can later turn around and say it was not received. However, you should receive an auto-acknowledgement from the CNBC almost immediately.

The OP mentioned a "DCP 26.3" request to have it transferred to their local court. I don't know what a "DCP 26.3" is but it is not necessary. Even if the OP does not fill in the section of the N180 for a court location, the CNBC will allocate it to a local court anyway.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on January 31, 2024, 11:01:36 am
OK thanks and sorry for any misunderstanding!

Just to confirm, the document above (dated Oct 2022) was definitely received last week, and was definitely sent from the County Court.  So what is going on and how should I proceed please?

Especially considering the recent update on the MCOL timeline:

Case Stay Lifted on 24/01/2024

DQ sent to you on 24/01/2024

DQ filed by claimant on 24/01/2024

Thanks
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on January 30, 2024, 01:05:28 pm
Thank you, so how should I proceed from here?
From the thread so far, I assume you've acknowledged the claim on MCOL as discussed? If so, your next step if you're still contesting the claim is to draft up your defence.
It has been acknowledged on MCOL.

In terms of the draft, are you happy/willing to help with this?  If you think there's no point then I will fold and save everyone the trouble...

*EDIT*  Also just to say if this would be a better strategy, I am happy to contest it in part.  As the original PCN was never received and no reasonable period was offered to pay the original amount after appeal refusal (they gave 1 day), I could offer to pay the £40, thereby seeming somewhat reasonable while not paying them any of the scum debt collector charges.  It would seem entirely reasonable to me that someone who's trying to do an honest day's work at their employer, has been given permission to park somewhere, surprise ticketed and never given an option to pay less than £70, should not be penalised to the whole tune.  But of course I am biased.

The only reason I raised the issue of not discussing an offer from DCB Legal was because of the post above where it was mentioned about “offering” to pay £40. I appreciate that the OP is now better informed about how to handle DCB Legal.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on January 30, 2024, 12:42:58 pm
Oh also, I have refused to speak to them when they have phoned, and have refused all their offers to "settle".  Not sure why it seems otherwise to you.
I don't think anyone is under the impression you have entertained any offers to settle. Whilst I can't speak on b789's behalf, my reading of his wording around this was simply to remind you that you need not settle, and that offering to do so is part of DCB's standard procedure.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on January 30, 2024, 11:45:10 am
To respond to a couple of your points:
- I did the acknowledgement of service on 16/10
- Submitted defence on 10/11
- The document above arrived last week

So i have not missed anything, as you can see from the MCOL timescales stated:

Case Stay Lifted on 24/01/2024

DQ sent to you on 24/01/2024

DQ filed by claimant on 24/01/2024

I have followed all the advice on this website, namely responding to everything in time, keeping an eye on MCOL and waiting for anything to come through the post.  In terms of timings, I am not sure what you are saying I have done wrong?

*EDIT* i have just had a thought that maybe the above was not sent by the court at all, but by the scammers, in the hope of scaring me?  I will check the envelope.

Oh also, I have refused to speak to them when they have phoned, and have refused all their offers to "settle".  Not sure why it seems otherwise to you.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on January 29, 2024, 07:35:31 pm
OK, I have now gone back through this thread and can see that what should be a fairly easy and smooth process has been excruciatingly protracted.

The OP appears to be slightly overconfident with it. This is a claim from First Parking submitted by DCB Legal on their behalf. The OP should understand that 99.99% of claims submitted by DCB Legal will be discontinued before a hearing if the defence is robust.

If the template defence from the MSE forum was used, correctly and in full, this will end in a discontinuance. I'm prepared to put money on it. The modus operandi of DCB Legal is to hope that the defendant is low hanging fruit on the gullible tree and is likely to capitulate once a court hearing is looming.

There are a couple of things to note however. The Claimant is relying on PoFA para 8 which is for a NtD PCN. They failed to evidence a NtD, at least in their photos. Was a copy of a NtD provided in the SAR? Irrespective of the POPLA assessor, without evidencing an NtD, they cannot rely on PoFA to hold the keeper liable.

However, having looked back, I believe that the OP dobbed themselves in it in the initial appeal by admitting being the driver. Also, I have not seen exactly what the OP put n their defence. I don't see any mention of keeper liability.

The PoC failed to comply with Civil Procedure Rule 16.4(1)(e) and Practice Direction Part 16.7.5. In which case, had the OP used the CEL v Chan appeal transcript, this claim could have been thrown out at allocation stage.

With regards to the "contract", as already stated, what has been revealed is not the full document. It was hopefully asked for in the defence. Any reactions in the claimants bundle will get short thrift if they redact anything if reference to Hancock v Promontoria (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/qepsamkhjknoynnorzv3y/Hancock-draft-judgment-final-14-July-2020.pdf?rlkey=rupfiyu3a3uk5ittjqw66is5j&dl=0) is used.

With a bit of luck, the fact that the OP offered to pay something towards the PCN was made with a Without Prejudice header. If not, they have given DCB Legal a juicy morsel to try and use if they were to actually progress to a hearing.

So... why has the OP posted a copy of the very old claim form? Perhaps they meant to post an image of the Allocation to the Small Claims Track (Hearing) letter? If so, it probably means that the OP didn't use the preliminary matter of the CEL v Chan argument in their defence.

Even so, if most of the MSE template defence was used, it is still likely that they will discontinue. The usual process is for DCB Legal to try and get in touch with the defendant by any means including letter, phone and email. They will on the one hand say that they intend to proceed with the claim and then offer a Without Prejudice offer to settle.

What the OP must not do is engage with DCB Legal. Ignore all offers to settle. This the usual prelude to them discontinuing.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: b789 on January 29, 2024, 06:53:01 pm
With an "issue date" of 10th October 2023, you are way past any response to this. You would have had 19 days from the "issue date" to acknowledge service (AoS) of the claim and then until 4pm on Monday 13th of November 2023 to have submitted your defence.

You say you have only just received the claim form. Have you any idea why you have only just received it now? Have you checked your credit record to see if a default CCJ was filed against you any time after 29th October 2023?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on January 29, 2024, 10:01:44 am
Morning, good folks of FTLA.

I received this over the weekend. I would appreciate advice on what response to make, specifically in making sure it is set to a local court.  I am challenging the whole amount, but not making a counter-claim.

(https://i.ibb.co/gyw0PNW/Claim-Form1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/WPRY4Q7/Claim-Form2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/rHFSvm9/Claim-Form3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/64hWr4p/Claim-Form4.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/0F1jFfV/Claim-Form5.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/fSHctvP/Claim-Form6.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/cySVczr/Claim-Form7.jpg)

I believe I just need to fill in pages 4 and 7, but I don't see anything about changing the venue.

Thank you
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on December 06, 2023, 09:08:00 am
So there is nothing I need to do until I either receive a letter form the court or an update on MCOL?

Thanks
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: H C Andersen on December 04, 2023, 11:29:42 am

As I understand it, a N180 would be issued by the court, it's a process document which is part and parcel of the claims procedure.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on December 04, 2023, 09:42:35 am
Hi, just to check in again.

I have been watching MCOL and nothing has been added since my defence.  My hunch is the debt collector was misrepresenting by saying they were going to submit the N180, it was designed to make me crumble.

Just to check there is nothing I need to do at this point?  I can't submit my own N180 until I get the directions questionnaire?

Thanks
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on November 24, 2023, 10:54:09 am
They should send you the directions questionnaire. I'm not sure that there's a standard timescale for when they'll do this - I believe it can take a couple of months. Worth keeping your eye on MCOL.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on November 22, 2023, 11:34:21 am
I would appreciate help with timescales and actions, as unless I am missing it, it's really not clear what needs to be done when.  There is no record on MCOL of anything being submitted since my defence on 10/11.  I guess i need to wait until the N180 appears here, after which I can submit my own, which will include a DCP 26.3 request to change to a local court?

Thanks
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: The Rookie on November 21, 2023, 10:36:42 am
especially with the procedural improprieties.
This isn't a legislated process, there is no such concept in private parking (and I can't see you've actually alleged any either), the matter will revolve around whether something was owed after the period of parking or not, what comes later is largely irrelevant unless it relates to keeper liability which won't really help in your case.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on November 20, 2023, 10:52:20 am
Thank you, when you say "make sure you complete your own in line with the indicated timescales", perhaps there is a resource i am missing, but where are timescales indicated?  Not on MCOL as far as I can see.

Thanks
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on November 20, 2023, 10:46:00 am
- An email offering for me to pay £210.  I replied saying we may consider £40, as this was the original cost of the ticket that we were denied the option of ever paying
I hope you marked this email as 'Without Prejudice Save as to Costs', so they can't try and spin this offer against you in court?

The various offers you refer to seems like fairly standard negotiation - they want you to pay as much as they can get out of you, you want to pay nothing. You've moved from £0 to £40, they've moved back down to the original charge amount of £100.

1) Legitimacy of the document.
Looks like a relatively standard N180.

2) In the E1 section of the do, they attempt to have the hearing at their local court.  My understanding was that it is usually the defendant's right to choose the venue.  Is this just more bluster, choosing to make their claim from their Runcorn office despite having offices closer to me?
Again, standard. The form asks which court they'd like the matter heard at - they're not going to say they want it at your home court. But look at the 'Notes' to the right of that box, it refers to the CPR that govern these claims - Part 26 (https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part26) is relevant here:

26.3.—(1) This rule applies where the claim is for an amount of money in the County Court, specified or unspecified.
(3) Subject to paragraphs (5) and (6), if the defendant is an individual and the claim is for a specified sum of money, at the relevant time the claim must be sent to the defendant’s home court

3) Given the question of who is actually able to bring a claim against me (ref HCA's point that the contract does not apparently allow First Parking to bring the claim), how would a third party (i.e. DCB Legal) bring a claim?
First Parking are bringing the claim - DCB Legal are their legal representatives, as they don't have their own in-house legal team. Note the first box at the very top says "To be completed by, or on behalf of, First Parking Llp".

Keep an eye out for it turning up on MCOL but at face value there doesn't seem much untoward with the document. Make sure you complete your own in line with the indicated timescales.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on November 20, 2023, 09:38:17 am
Morning, FTLAers

So the defence was submitted based on:
- The driver having permission from the landowner to park in the position
- No contract extension being evidenced
- The legality of action being brought in the name of the PPC (as per HCA)
- Other relevant points from the MSE thread

I then received these communications form DCBLegal (the debt collector, not the PPC)

- An email offering for me to pay £210.  I replied saying we may consider £40, as this was the original cost of the ticket that we were denied the option of ever paying
- An email offering for me to pay £100. This was not replied to before the following was received
- An email including an N180 directions questionnaire.  This is included below:

(https://i.ibb.co/23WffWV/Questionnaire1.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/BTx2t7k/Questionnaire2.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/DQsHpWk/Questionnaire3.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/NKv4FrP/Questionnaire4.jpg)

This also includes an offer to call them and arrange a settlement.

I would appreciate any comments but particularly thoughts regarding these:

1) Legitimacy of the document.  The debt collectors seem like complete cowboys, making random offers with no link to a lawful sum.  The fact that the N180 mail included an offer to arrange payment makes me wonder if they are up to their usual tricks of threats and misrepresentations.  Do we believe the above is a genuinely submitted document, or just intending to scare?

2) In the E1 section of the do, they attempt to have the hearing at their local court.  My understanding was that it is usually the defendant's right to choose the venue.  Is this just more bluster, choosing to make their claim from their Runcorn office despite having offices closer to me?

3) Given the question of who is actually able to bring a claim against me (ref HCA's point that the contract does not apparently allow First Parking to bring the claim), how would a third party (i.e. DCB Legal) bring a claim?  This in particular makes me wonder if the whole thing is a sample document intending to make someone crumble rather than an actual submission to court, although they do say "please find attached a copy of the Claimant's, which we confirm has been filed with the Court"

In case it's useful to know, the MCOL timeline of transactions makes no mention of this form.  The most recent transaction is my defence submission. 

Thanks for your advice.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on November 08, 2023, 02:38:02 pm

OP, you must see both references together. The first is clear i.e. in the client's name. In the absence of 4.1(1), 7.1 could be interpreted as giving authority to FP to recover parking charges in their name, but 4.1(1) is there and is clear. In addition, the Service Spec relates to a contract and there isn't evidence that this exists, as far as the written evidence shows this terminated in 2022 before the PCN was issued. 

Armed with this you, IMO you are perfectly entitled to question FP's authority to bring proceedings in their own name and absent Annex 1 I don't think the court could be satisfied on this point. 

In your defence you say that the claimant has no standing to bring these proceedings i.e. no landowner authority.

Maybe they will produce more evidence when it's their turn, remember what you've shown us appears to be their reply to your SAR...but if they bothered to include matters pertaining to their authority in this reply, then why not include the correspondence which shows that the contract was extended?

This is all understood now, thank you.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: H C Andersen on November 08, 2023, 02:11:26 pm

OP, you must see both references together. The first is clear i.e. in the client's name. In the absence of 4.1(1), 7.1 could be interpreted as giving authority to FP to recover parking charges in their name, but 4.1(1) is there and is clear. In addition, the Service Spec relates to a contract and there isn't evidence that this exists, as far as the written evidence shows this terminated in 2022 before the PCN was issued. 

Armed with this you, IMO you are perfectly entitled to question FP's authority to bring proceedings in their own name and absent Annex 1 I don't think the court could be satisfied on this point. 

In your defence you say that the claimant has no standing to bring these proceedings i.e. no landowner authority.

Maybe they will produce more evidence when it's their turn, remember what you've shown us appears to be their reply to your SAR...but if they bothered to include matters pertaining to their authority in this reply, then why not include the correspondence which shows that the contract was extended?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on November 08, 2023, 11:19:17 am
You can only submit one defence. Witness statement(s) and evidence documents are submitted later - have a thorough read of the MSE thread I linked to on page 1 of this thread to familiarise yourself with what you'll be submitting and when.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on November 08, 2023, 11:00:45 am
A claim was issued against you on 10/10/2023
The date of service is the fifth day after the issue date, so 15th October. As you acknowledged service, you have 28 days from the date of service to file your defence - by my reckoning that is 12th November. As that falls on a Sunday, your deadline will be 4pm the next working day, Monday 13th.

I'm personally always wary about submitting things too close to the deadline - if there are technical issues or similar, it gives you little time to resolve them.

Thank you.  I guess I can always submit further supporting documents at a later date?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on November 08, 2023, 10:57:22 am
A claim was issued against you on 10/10/2023
The date of service is the fifth day after the issue date, so 15th October. As you acknowledged service, you have 28 days from the date of service to file your defence - by my reckoning that is 12th November. As that falls on a Sunday, your deadline will be 4pm the next working day, Monday 13th.

I'm personally always wary about submitting things too close to the deadline - if there are technical issues or similar, it gives you little time to resolve them.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on November 08, 2023, 10:15:56 am
What was the date of issue on the claim?

I think this is it?

A claim was issued against you on 10/10/2023

Thank you HC Andersen, I appreciate your contractual points.

To be sure that I understand:

Quote
7.1 The client authorises First Parking to take legal action to recover the outstanding parking charges.

Nothing here informs the court that proceedings may be brought in FP's name, but they are the claimant on their own behalf it would seem.

7.1 says that they are authorised, but is your point that they are not authorised to bring proceedings in their own name, i.e. they can only (on this evidence) bring proceedings in the client's name?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: H C Andersen on November 07, 2023, 05:31:28 pm
This thread is so long I'm getting confused by what is the claimant's evidence to the court and what is their response to your SAR.

As regards what I've seen, I would focus on their standing to bring this case in their name:

1. No evidence that the contract is extant because according to what's been presented the term of 5 years ended on 31 August 2022. The parking charge notice  was issued after the end of this term and IMO it is not the court's task to infer that the claimant has authority to bring an action in their name when prima facie they do not. All they need to do is to present a letter from the Client, but it's not in evidence.

2. The Service Spec(which is incomplete with only a fraction of the 14 pages in evidence) takes precedence over the Terms and Conditions which aren't in evidence anyway, and the Spec states:

4.1(1) The client authorises First Parking to ..take such action....in accordance with the enforcement process..including issuing proceedings on the client's behalf.

7.1 The client authorises First Parking to take legal action to recover the outstanding parking charges.

Nothing here informs the court that proceedings may be brought in FP's name, but they are the claimant on their own behalf it would seem.

Annex 1 might clarify the issue about in whose name may proceedings be brought, but as it stands the Spec says 'on the client's behalf'.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on November 07, 2023, 02:18:15 pm
What was the date of issue on the claim?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on November 07, 2023, 01:43:36 pm
He has:
I said that there is nothing that is stated as "Annex 1"
They haven't included it in the SAR.

You could challenge them to produce a full and unredacted contract in the defence, including Annex 1.

That is what I thought (and what I thought I had stated), but thanks for confirming.  I will request he contract in full as you suggest.

So far I understand the advice is to:

- Read the template defence as you referenced in your PM and adapt any relevant sections

- Request a full and unredacted contract including Annex 1


I know this doesn't seem to be meeting with much enthusiasm, but I am still keen to include a statement from the landowner's representative along the lines of "the driver had been advised to park in that position and we do not consider it to be an obstruction".  As the charge is for obstructive parking, it seems the crux of the matter is whether it actually was obstructive.  Given that this is hard to prove one way or the other, a statement from the landowner that they do not consider it obstructive should surely be worth something?

Thanks

*EDIT*

I would also appreciate confirmation on timescales.  The MCOL summary states:
Your acknowledgment of service was received on 16/10/2023

When would be the final day for submission of a defence?

Thanks
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on November 07, 2023, 01:19:00 pm
He has:
 I said that there is nothing that is stated as "Annex 1"
They haven't included it in the SAR.

You could challenge them to produce a full and unredacted contract in the defence, including Annex 1.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: H C Andersen on November 07, 2023, 12:18:11 pm
You posted the Service Spec in post #18, 26 October.

This refers to Annex 1 and sets its context and purpose.

You didn't post Annex 1.

If you don't have it and it's not part of their evidence then pl just say so.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on November 07, 2023, 09:36:42 am
Perhaps I misunderstand then.  If not part of the SAR, how would I be expected to get Annex 1?  My understanding is that they are not required to give me information at this stage, although I could request it as part of my defence.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: H C Andersen on November 03, 2023, 06:46:06 pm

Are we at cross purposes, I wonder.

A SAR is a request for your personal info but, as observed by others, they seem to have included the Service Spec of their contract for services.

IMO, this is meaningless without Annex 1 by virtue of paras. 3(d), 6 and 7.

We MUST see Annex 1.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on November 03, 2023, 07:25:39 am

As regards Annex 1, I don't understand how you can be so dismissive given that the claimant's evidence (ss6 and 7 of their Service Specification) brings its relevance front and centre.

I'm not sure why you think i'm coming across as dismissive.  I said that there is nothing that is stated as "Annex 1" but that I am happy to PM you the whole SAR in case it's hidden. What more can I do?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on November 01, 2023, 09:53:41 pm
If the SAR response is incredibly long, there's no need to share the full thing. But Annex 1 would be of potential use.

Quote
Beavis made it easy for them to recover any amount whatever the circumstances?
No. They can't recover whatever they like, for example the commonly added debt recovery fees (usually around £70) are often thrown out when challenged correctly.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: H C Andersen on November 01, 2023, 09:45:21 pm

is still a high bar for a PPC to reach, no?

Not really. 

Did a contract exist and did a breach occur?  You don't deny the former but suggest without physical proof that the driver was permitted by a competent authority to act as they did.

The ball is in your court given that prima facie a breach occurred.

The forum works best when info is shared as widely as possible. As regards Annex 1, I don't understand how you can be so dismissive given that the claimant's evidence (ss6 and 7 of their Service Specification) brings its relevance front and centre.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on November 01, 2023, 09:58:42 am
Hi.

I'm not sure why this is coming across otherwise, but my thoughts are entirely in order.

There is nothing specifically named Annex 1, but I am very happy to PM you the whole SAR PDF.


My understanding is that charging penalistic amounts for private parking, and including extra recovery charges, when the respondent has been thoroughly communicative at all stages, is still a high bar for a PPC to reach, no? Or has Beavis made it easy for them to recover any amount whatever the circumstances?

As before I am calm, ordered and happy to proceed with advice either in defending the whole amount or the cost of the original PCN (which was never received).
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: H C Andersen on October 31, 2023, 03:51:15 pm

'the employer had given permission to park outside standard parking places in this situation.  Many employees did this all the time,'

Then you need to get a written copy of this permission to include in your witness statement to the court. But as observed by others, the alleged breach was for 'obstructive' parking, not simply parking outside bays.

I must say that your later post of  'If I were to get a statement from the Head of Security stating that the driver had permission to park here ..' does not suggest that there was extant written permission from the employer to park causing an obstruction.

I strongly suggest that you get your thoughts ordered before submitting your defence and witness statements because I'm certain that I'm just asking the same questions and requiring the same level of proof as would the court. Maybe I'm wrong and they'll just accept your word.

Where is Annex 1? This is the document which specifies the extent, and therefore limit, of the contractor's authority as regards pursuing parking charges and yet we've still not seen it.

Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on October 31, 2023, 10:26:35 am
Has anyone established what exactly was being obstructed? Hard to know from one image, but it looks like little/nothing? I doubt the Uni gave the driver explicit permission to park in that particular place, but if they did........

The PPC are being drama queens and saying it was obstructing emergency services.  The driver did have explicit instructions to park there.  The car park was often full and employees were instructed to use these spots in that situation.  Many staff parked there all the time, this was the first time the PPC had actually ticketed there.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: H C Andersen on October 30, 2023, 03:05:00 pm

We still need to see Annex 1.

You have only shown us selected photos, but clearly the creditor's evidence persuaded the POPLA assessor that a PCN was issued to the vehicle. In addition, the car was parked partly on the pavement and partly on what looks like a circulating route, a route which could probably be used HGVs as well as cars. In fact the OP hasn't given us anything regarding the location other than a single, close-up picture.

IMO, unless there's a technical reason why First Parking cannot bring this action in their name I don't know what the OP's defence would be other than disputing that the vehicle was causing an obstruction...but the OP wasn't there and wasn't the driver and I don't think a judge would be persuaded by their opinion on a single photo without any context.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: guest46 on October 30, 2023, 10:25:06 am
Has anyone established what exactly was being obstructed? Hard to know from one image, but it looks like little/nothing? I doubt the Uni gave the driver explicit permission to park in that particular place, but if they did........
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on October 30, 2023, 10:15:34 am
Thank you, so how should I proceed from here?
From the thread so far, I assume you've acknowledged the claim on MCOL as discussed? If so, your next step if you're still contesting the claim is to draft up your defence.
It has been acknowledged on MCOL.

In terms of the draft, are you happy/willing to help with this?  If you think there's no point then I will fold and save everyone the trouble...

*EDIT*  Also just to say if this would be a better strategy, I am happy to contest it in part.  As the original PCN was never received and no reasonable period was offered to pay the original amount after appeal refusal (they gave 1 day), I could offer to pay the £40, thereby seeming somewhat reasonable while not paying them any of the scum debt collector charges.  It would seem entirely reasonable to me that someone who's trying to do an honest day's work at their employer, has been given permission to park somewhere, surprise ticketed and never given an option to pay less than £70, should not be penalised to the whole tune.  But of course I am biased.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: H C Andersen on October 28, 2023, 11:23:47 am

Where's Annex 1?

There's nothing to indicate that the initial contract had been extended or even how this would occur. However, as the incident occurred after Sept. 2022 it's reasonable to infer that it has been extended.

I cannot see any reference to the landlord's right to interfere with the PPC's decisions to issue PCNs, or the Head of Security's!
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on October 27, 2023, 02:16:52 pm
Thank you, so how should I proceed from here?
From the thread so far, I assume you've acknowledged the claim on MCOL as discussed? If so, your next step if you're still contesting the claim is to draft up your defence.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on October 27, 2023, 09:34:58 am
Thank you, so how should I proceed from here?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on October 26, 2023, 10:39:44 pm
Not much to note there - although as you mention they haven't provided the whole thing, including the bit where it is actually signed... They also don't detail how the 'extension' period mentioned under "Contract Term" works. The charge was issued outside the initial 5 year term, but within the 2 year extension
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on October 26, 2023, 09:30:31 am
From your SAR - is there a copy of the parking company's contract with the landowner in there? It's not your personal data, so they may well not have included it in your SAR response, but neither is signage, and they've included that!

Actually they do, but not all pages of it:

(https://i.ibb.co/GVcwPny/Contract1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/NjbSTTy/Contract2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/fXYLwgN/Contract3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/D1s568X/Contract4.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/tXTDY0r/Contract5.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/ypMKMVr/Contract6.jpg)

Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on October 25, 2023, 11:03:58 am
Permission after the event upon which you hadn't previously relied?
Producing some evidence, albeit after the fact, is better than nothing, but I agree with H C Andersen that it might not look great. I note you've asserted at all stages of the process that you had permission to park where you did, but a judge may well wonder why no evidence of said permission has been produced until the matter has gone all the way to court. We cannot go back in time and acquire written permission from the date in question however, so producing something now is certainly better than simply asking the court to believe you without supporting evidence.

From your SAR - is there a copy of the parking company's contract with the landowner in there? It's not your personal data, so they may well not have included it in your SAR response, but neither is signage, and they've included that!
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on October 24, 2023, 01:00:09 pm
I have received the SAR details, and there are a lot of them TBH.  I'm very happy to send the whole .pdf to members by PM if it would be useful.  Also to pick out, redact and post any specific parts as requested.

For now here are the signage parts:

(https://i.ibb.co/N1WmYbv/Signage-1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/993bB9k/Signage-2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/C7PQmt0/Signage-3.jpg)
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: H C Andersen on October 23, 2023, 06:54:48 pm

If I were to get a statement from the Head of Security stating that the driver had permission to park here and that he does not consider the location to be obstructive, this would blow them out of the water would it not?

I doubt it. Permission after the event upon which you hadn't previously relied? 'This location' or any place in obstruction? Would the Head of Security have the landowner's authority to amend their contract with the PPC? I suggest that the HoS would need to appear as a witness.

My previous posts were based upon the evidence at that time i.e. you had not mentioned a NTK, unsuccessful PPC and POPLA appeals, an assessor's decision which challenges directly some of the assertions you've made in this thread e.g. they found that a NTD was served which formed the basis of their subsequent finding that the discount was not required to be offered in the NTK etc.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on October 23, 2023, 02:47:52 pm
I guess the question is that as the person was an employee, with permission, what material loss has their been?
They aren't suing for a material loss on the landowner's part. They are suing on the basis that they claim the driver entered into a contract with them through which they agreed to pay £100 for parking, and that £100 hasn't been paid.

Definitely speak to the former employer.

Do you have any photos of the signage? That it's an employees-only car park means the signage may well be forbidding...
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on October 23, 2023, 02:31:57 pm
Before we get into any of the details of the above:
the employer had given permission to park outside standard parking places in this situation.
This is noteworthy. Where has your employer been in all of this process?

Are they aware that one of their employees is being sued by the parking company they hired to manage parking on their land, for parking in a space that they had given them express permission to park in?

Did you get this permission in writing?

The driver actually ceased working for this employer shortly after the ticket was issued.  They had been an employee for a number of years, it was just unlucky timing.  Due to this they didn't really want to bother their ex employer with it, and honestly I thought it was unlikely to get this far, especially with the procedural improprieties.

However they are going to get a written statement from the old employer stating that they were given verbal permission to park here.

I guess the question is that as the person was an employee, with permission, what material loss has their been?  In fact had they not parked there the employee's absence would actually have cost the employer money.  I am aware that Beavis makes specific material losses a little more shaky, but considering that there is no paid parking here, and no commercial businesses to lose out due to it, as it is only a car park for employees, there could never have been any loss?


*EDIT*
Actually on this note, the specific claim is that it was causing an obstruction.  If I were to get a statement from the Head of Security stating that the driver had permission to park here and that he does not consider the location to be obstructive, this would blow them out of the water would it not?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on October 23, 2023, 02:20:21 pm
Before we get into any of the details of the above:
the employer had given permission to park outside standard parking places in this situation.
This is noteworthy. Where has your employer been in all of this process?

Are they aware that one of their employees is being sued by the parking company they hired to manage parking on their land, for parking in a space that they had given them express permission to park in?

Did you get this permission in writing?
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on October 23, 2023, 02:12:47 pm
After this came loads of threats from DCB Legal.  The usual PPC debt collector drivel.  I replied to each of these stating in essence:

"The debt is denied.  Refer back to your client. I will be happy to defend myself in court, which is the appropriate venue."


I will add the redacted SAR details when i get them.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on October 23, 2023, 02:09:43 pm
POPLA appeal

I'm afraid I do not have the specific appeal that I submitted - apologies.  However the "adjudicator" does state exactly what my appeal was and the evidence as so:

- No PCN was affixed.  NTK was the first document received.  Picture from the PPC's appeal website shows no PCN attached
- Rejection letter gives 1 day to pay the reduced rate.  Along with no PCN issued, this means no reasonable time period was ever given to pay the original sum
- Driver was an employee who was given specific allowance to park in that spot by their employer

Here is the POPLA rejection:

Quote
Decision
Unsuccessful


Assessor Name
xxxxx
Assessor summary of operator case
The parking operator has issued the parking charge notice (PCN) for obstructive parking.

Assessor summary of your case
The appellant has raised the following points from their grounds of appeal: • They say the driver was an employee of St Mary’s University and therefore had permission to park. • They explain that the permission is not granted by a permit but on a database. • They say that the vehicle registration will show as valid. • They explain that no parking charge was affixed to the vehicle, which can be proven by the parking operator’s images. • They say that the Notice to Keeper does not offer the opportunity to pay the reduced amount. • They explain that the appeal rejection is flawed as it advises the amount could be paid by 10.01 which was issued by email. They say that it is likely someone would not check their email for 48 hours or more. The appellant has provided the following as evidence to support their appeal: 1. Screenshot of the parking operator’s website. 2. Copy of the notice to keeper. 3. Copy of the rejection of their appeal. The above evidence will be considered in making our determination.

Assessor supporting rational for decision
In this case, the appellant is appealing as the keeper of the vehicle. I consider the appellant has not been identified as the driver of the vehicle. As such, I will be considering the appellant’s liability as the registered keeper of the vehicle. For the Registered Keeper to be liable for the parking charge, the parking operator must follow the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012. Having reviewed the evidence, I consider that there looks to be a contract between the driver and the parking operator, and the registered keeper has not provided a current name and address for service for the driver. Further, the notice sent complies with the relevant provisions. I am satisfied that the parking operator has met POFA to transfer liability to the registered keeper. When entering onto a private car park such as this one, any motorist forms a contract with the parking operator by remaining on the land for a reasonable period. The signs in place set out the terms and conditions of this contract. The parking operator has provided photos of the signs in place in the car park, which state: “A Parking Charge Notice (PCN) of £70 will be issued in the following circumstances: Obstructive parking.” The parking operator has provided photos of the appellant’s vehicle, which demonstrates the vehicle was parked causing an obstruction. It appears a contract between the driver and the parking operator was formed, and the parking operator’s case file suggests the contract has been breached. I will consider the appellant’s grounds of appeal to determine if they dispute the validity of the PCN. • They say the driver was an employee of St Mary’s University and therefore had permission to park. • They explain that the permission is not granted by a permit but on a database. • They say that the vehicle registration will show as valid. While I appreciate these comments, the parking charge was not issued regarding the vehicle not having a permit. However, it was issued as the vehicle was parked causing an obstruction. Having reviewed the images provided, the vehicle had parked on a pavement, which could cause obstruction to oncoming vehicles or pedestrians. As such, I am satisfied the parking charge was issued correctly. • They explain that no parking charge was affixed to the vehicle, which can be proven by the parking operator’s images. I have reviewed the images provided, I am satisfied the parking charge was affixed to the vehicle, which advises the driver had 14 days to pay the reduced parking charge. They say that the Notice to Keeper does not offer the opportunity to pay the reduced amount. As mentioned above, the reduced amount is applicable for the first 14 days. There is no requirement for the reduced amount to be offered beyond the 14 days. • They explain that the appeal rejection is flawed as it advises the amount could be paid by 10.01 which was issued by email. They say that it is likely someone would not check their email for 48 hours or more. I can see from the evidence provided, the parking operator has acknowledged the one day to pay the reduced fee was in error and would have permitted the reduced fee to be paid. Furthermore, there is no requirement to offer the reduced amount after the 14 days. After considering the evidence, I can see that the terms of parking were made clear, and that the appellant broke them by obstructive parking. I am satisfied that the PCN was issued correctly and refuse this appeal.

Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on October 23, 2023, 12:13:14 pm
I imagine this is comparatively meaningless, but for the sake of completeness, here are the details of the informal appeal.

On the PPC's website, here is the main pic shown on their portal.  I didn't capture all of them (thumbnails on the left) but none of them showed a PCN attached, which is interesting seeing as there was not one there when the driver arrived.

(https://i.ibb.co/RpkN575/Appeal-Picsredacted.jpg)

Here is the appeal as submitted:

(https://i.ibb.co/7g1DFrr/appealdeets.jpg)

And the rejection:

(https://i.ibb.co/HGh4VhF/Informal-Reply1.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/nw76Jym/Informal-Reply2.jpg)

*EDIT*

I'd also like to draw people's attentions to the date of the rejection (09/01/23) and the closing date offered for the reduced sum (10/01/23).  Not sure if this is any use?


Next up, the POPLA appeal...
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on October 23, 2023, 10:18:40 am
CONTACT 1

The first contact was a NTK as no PCN was ever found on the car.  Here is the NTK:

(https://i.ibb.co/0m714Mc/First-PCN1.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/0cLbLKN/First-PCN2.jpg)

The circumstances:

This was a place of work.  The driver was employed at this university at the time, and had permission to park.  Permission was granted by means of the car reg being on a database, which it was at the time.  However, the standard parking places were all full, and the employer had given permission to park outside standard parking places in this situation.  Many employees did this all the time, as parking was often tight.  However this was the first time a PPC had actually ticketed them, which surprised everyone.  The ticket it appears is for causing an obstruction.

I did request photos etc. and made a POPLA appeal, which was not accepted.  I will post all of this up later today.

Thanks

*EDIT*  In the original thread, it was pointed out that the dates are useful.  The dates from the top of the document are:

Date of event: 21/11/2022 10:50

Date issued: 21/12/2022 12:10
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on October 23, 2023, 09:46:37 am
I'm not sure what you're on about there, Mr. Andersen.  You always seem to have something contrary and unhelpful to say, and in this case unwarranted assumptions to make.  The forum may change but the troll stays the same.  The fact is I have responded to every piece of literature they have sent me, including their informal appeal, POPLA and each one of the "debt collector" letters.  It's not a game isn't it?  In this case why do they employ bogus debt collectors who purposely misrepresent the legal process?


Anyway, I will compile all of the literature from the start.  This may take up a few posts as there is a lot of it.  First contact to follow shortly.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: H C Andersen on October 17, 2023, 04:16:07 pm
My comments should be seen in the context of the OP's statement:

I don't want to miss this opportunity as this seems like quite a powerful card to play.

I think my warning is apposite. This is not a game, cards or otherwise.

In addition, they should be aware - as is often said on this forum - that unreasonable behaviour could lead to higher than normal costs being awarded against them. So far the OP would seem to fall into this category because they have ignored all notices and the letter of claim. They should be aware how many debits they've already clocked up as I hope this would lead them to not play brinkmanship with procedure because if they come unstuck the results could be costly.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: andy_foster on October 16, 2023, 03:35:41 pm
Telling an OP that they should have done something earlier is not helpful. The purpose of the site is to assist the OP going forward, not to to castigate them for things already done.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: H C Andersen on October 16, 2023, 01:16:37 pm

  I don't want to miss this opportunity as this seems like quite a powerful card to play.

In what way? Their evidence would be submitted in writing and the claimant won't be represented wherever the case is heard.

Getting to the court on time booted and suited makes not a jot of difference to outcomes IMO, it's evidence which decides the matter. And playing silly b*****s with time frames and leaving submissions until the last minute are tactics more likely to trip up the unwary respondent than a firm like DCB Legal. Where, as regards actions which you're required to take, one time frame is contingent upon another e.g. submitting a defence being contingent upon acknowledging service etc. then if one wants to maximise the time to assemble evidence it makes sense to delay until near a time limit, but knowing why you're doing something and whether it offers you any advantage is necessary. But this is not council procedures and you're not going to time-out or trip up anyone other than possibly yourself.

I must ask: why have you submitted a SAR now? The obvious answer would be that you did not do this at the Letter of Claim stage. Which begs the question why?

This isn't a game and if all you've done to date is to ignore the creditor and the creditor's legal reps then your actions are likely to be seen as unreasonable by the court. 
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on October 16, 2023, 12:22:45 pm
Just to check; when is the point at which I can apply to have it transferred to a local court?
You do this at the Directions Questionnaire stage, where you fill in an N180 Form (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n180-directions-questionnaire-small-claims-track), which happens after your defence is submitted - I believe it is discussed somewhere in the post I linked to from the MSE forum.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on October 16, 2023, 12:05:31 pm
Thanks, I have submitted a SAR and will go through the MCOL process presently.  Just to check; when is the point at which I can apply to have it transferred to a local court?  I don't want to miss this opportunity as this seems like quite a powerful card to play.
Title: Re: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: DWMB2 on October 16, 2023, 11:42:07 am
long time user of Pepipoo (from the old days).
Thought the name looked familiar (although I've not personally been on PePiPoo anywhere near long enough to count as 'from the old days').

I understand that the blurb is usually included when assessing a PCN/NTO but in this case we're not going to be pulling apart the court's small print, right?
Indeed - what matters is the detail of the claim against you.

If this is your first time dealing with a court claim from a PPC then a good starting point is this Newbies thread on the MSE forum - https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/64350585/#Comment_64350585 (https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/64350585/#Comment_64350585) - it provides an outline of the court process, and tips for dealing with each stage. The first stage is to acknowledge the claim online using the MCOL system (the MSE thread includes advice on doing this), which will then give you some time to compile your defence.

Then if you're looking for advice on the merits of the case itself and your potential defence we'll of course need some details as you'll be aware. Ideally include:
Title: Actual Court Papers Received
Post by: dave-o on October 16, 2023, 11:21:39 am
Hi, first time poster on FTLA, long time user of Pepipoo (from the old days).

Here's another first for me - actually receiving court papers from a PPC!

Here is the cover page.  The rest is template copy.  I understand that the blurb is usually included when assessing a PCN/NTO but in this case we're not going to be pulling apart the court's small print, right?

(https://i.ibb.co/KNzQLf1/First-Court-Papers.jpg)


I will of course go into the details, but I understand at this point that I should just make a placeholder response to the letter, and perhaps also change it to a local court, is this right?



Thank you for the advice, it's appreciated.