Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: C_H_R_I_S on July 10, 2025, 02:25:27 pm
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Sorry: conjunctive and disjunctive may be best English.
I dont really understand but I'll add it to my reps and see how i go
Here you are : -
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/28805/conjunctive-and-disjunctive-assertions
I also learnt something today !
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Sorry: conjunctive and disjunctive may be best English.
I dont really understand but I'll add it to my reps and see how i go
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Sorry: conjunctive and disjunctive may be best English.
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IMO the PCN is non-compliant as it does not contain mandatory information.
I make this collateral challenge against the validity of the PCN as it does not state mandatory information provided at 4(8 )(v) of
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted
which in turn refers to 4(8 )(iii). Therefore, the PCN is not valid as it is missing mandatory information. And so it follows that the statement beginning with "If you fail................." is not only conflated but also does not even mention the said information thus exacerbating the lack of clarity of this PCN. Whether the "or" is interpreted as conjunctional or disjunctional, is somewhat further complicated by the missing information. The High Court has ruled that there must be such.
I must start a thread on this in the Flame Pit.
I am sorry that this is complicated; but, there it is.
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Just to set your expectations, Ealing will not accept your inital appeal. I appealed a PCN parked outside my house as I don't have a permit because I'm usually at work when the restrictions are in place. I took my girlfriend to A&E because she has a migraine for a week. I spent the night there, came home exhaused after calling in sick to work and went to bed. Woke up to a parking ticket. Told them all this and they still refused my appeal. They will refuse to use their discretion like the money grabbers they are.
Anyway, I'm up that neck of the woods today. I'll see if I can get some footage coming from costons ln, onto greenford rd and back into the School Street.
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Out of interest, the advance sign is improper as regards its legality. The sign is prescribed under the regs and conveys:
No left turn for vehicular traffic.
I'll bet a £ to a pinch of RHS that turning left from the main road is not prohibited.
What you cannot do is to drive past the zone signs. I agree that by signing that turning left is prohibited would have the same practical effect - although it's possible to turn into the head of the junction without fully passing the signs - but that sign does not convey a prohibition supported by an order.
A moot point or one which could perhaps be deployed if necessary, who knows?
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to formally appeal the Penalty Charge Notice issued under contravention code 53J. I respectfully request its cancellation on the following grounds:
Unclear or Obstructed Signage: The signage orientation is set in a way that is practically invisible until you have already turned onto the street. This is inadequate especically when you consider the speed and througput of the Greenford road. Drivers simply are overwhelmed by other signs and stimuli to be able to safely react to that signage.
Lack of Advance Warning for Certain Directions: When I drive into Greenford Road from Costons Lane on the opposite side of Greenford Road, there is no visible advance signage alerting drivers to the restriction ahead. This makes it especially difficult for drivers unfamiliar with the area to respond appropriately.
The advanced warning sign is also positioned near to a bus stop which means any bus or van can easily obscure the sign from view.
Advanced Warning Sign is legally incorrect:
the advance sign is improper as regards its legality. The sign is prescribed under the regs and conveys:
"No left turn for vehicular traffic"
But turning left from the main road is not legally prohibited.
Recent Signage Installation: This restriction appears to be a new addition to the area. As a regular road user, I had not previously encountered this sign or restriction and had no reason to expect it.
First-Time Offence: If an offence did occur, I kindly request leniency on the grounds that this is my first such incident and was unintentional, caused by unclear visibility and unfamiliar signage.
I hope you will consider these points and exercise discretion in this case. I would appreciate the cancellation of this PCN.
How does this look HCAnderson?
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Out of interest, the advance sign is improper as regards its legality. The sign is prescribed under the regs and conveys:
No left turn for vehicular traffic.
I'll bet a £ to a pinch of RHS that turning left from the main road is not prohibited.
What you cannot do is to drive past the zone signs. I agree that by signing that turning left is prohibited would have the same practical effect - although it's possible to turn into the head of the junction without fully passing the signs - but that sign does not convey a prohibition supported by an order.
A moot point or one which could perhaps be deployed if necessary, who knows?
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I absolutely hope it does help you and feel free to use it in all any appeals!
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So, I had a little trip up that way earlier. There is an advanced warning sign of the no right turn. The arguments I can see are that there is far more important signage for drivers to pay attention to, like the traffic lights for the pedestrian crossing just before entry into that road.
Even with a decent phone camera, it struggles to read the sign details from closer to the bus stop you see in the dash cam footage than the sign. You'd need someone smarter than me to argue that though. I will simply post my images and dashcam and watch from afar going forward.
Dashcam
https://i.imgur.com/6itzGDq.mp4
Thankyou for this helpful footage Beedmo
AS you can see there is a turning opposite the advanced warning sign that you can turn ONTO greenford road from.
Anyone coming from there would not see this advanced sign.
Maybe your footage of the sign turn could help my case.
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Yes I recently double checked and can confimr that sign.
I obviously didnt see it or I wouldnt have turned there.
There is also another factor. If you are coming to the turn after just turning right onto that main road you would not see that advanced turn sign.
Also if a bus is on your left it would block those signs.
Given the relatively new life of that sign maybe they would allow it as well?
I will begin to write an appeal if someone with decent legalese could help:::::
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to formally appeal the Penalty Charge Notice issued under contravention code 53J. I respectfully request its cancellation on the following grounds:
Unclear or Obstructed Signage: The signage orientation is set in a way that is practically invisible until you have already turned onto the street. This is inadequate especically when you consider the speed and througput of the Greenford road. Drivers simply are overwhelmed by other signs and stimuli to be able to safely react to that signage.
Lack of Advance Warning for Certain Directions: When I drive into Greenford Road from Costons Lane on the opposite side of Greenford Road, there is no visible advance signage alerting drivers to the restriction ahead. This makes it especially difficult for drivers unfamiliar with the area to respond appropriately.
The advanced warning sign is also positioned near to a bus stop which means any bus or van can easily obscure the sign from view.
Recent Signage Installation: This restriction appears to be a new addition to the area. As a regular road user, I had not previously encountered this sign or restriction and had no reason to expect it.
First-Time Offence: If an offence did occur, I kindly request leniency on the grounds that this is my first such incident and was unintentional, caused by unclear visibility and unfamiliar signage.
I hope you will consider these points and exercise discretion in this case. I would appreciate the cancellation of this PCN.
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That's a good advance sign in my view. Some adjudicators though are much more accommodating of the visibility (or lack of) of the primary sign possibly because one cannot be sure of the view of the advance sign at the time (eg that's a bus route).
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So, I had a little trip up that way earlier. There is an advanced warning sign of the no right turn. The arguments I can see are that there is far more important signage for drivers to pay attention to, like the traffic lights for the pedestrian crossing just before entry into that road.
Even with a decent phone camera, it struggles to read the sign details from closer to the bus stop you see in the dash cam footage than the sign. You'd need someone smarter than me to argue that though. I will simply post my images and dashcam and watch from afar going forward.
(https://i.imgur.com/GAJSFhN.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hSWbFJX.jpeg)
Dashcam
https://i.imgur.com/6itzGDq.mp4
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This one of Ealing's new school streets that you've been unlucky enough to have entered at times of enforcement. https://www.ealing.gov.uk/info/201146/neighbourhood_and_streets/2610/ealing_school_streets
According to this, it was launched 03/2024 so less than 18 months ago
https://www.ealing.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/20371/officer_decision_report_including_eaa_-_tranche_7_school_streets.pdf
Do you have a dashcam on your vehicle? Might be worth trying to argue it with that. It appears you can't actually see it until you're committed to the manoeuvere, if at all.
If not, I'm local and can't stand ealing council and their money grabbing. I'd be more than happy to drive the exact same route and supply my dashcam footage to assist with the unclear signage point.
Ealing council will refuse the appeal, so you really need to be ready to take this a lot further.
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So just when does a sign become unreadable or not noticeable to a motorist ? Looking at the video, the sign is higher than the top of the passing bus. This is surely wrong. There must come a point when the sign cannot be seen due to its height. This is not the only example I've seen recently on this forum.
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I think this may be a new one so won't be anything on tribunal yet but they can be allowed for unclear signage turning left with no advance signs.
(https://i.ibb.co/gF9cxz1n/e-ezgif-com-video-to-gif-converter.gif)
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Have you viewed their video and could it be posted here?
Is unclear signage enough?
The legal test is:
Traffic signs
18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—
(a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;
(b)the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force
Prescribed traffic signs(under the Traffic Sign etc. Regs) form part of this duty, but not its totality. Where, as here, the regulatory signs are placed such that they cannot be seen and read before a driver has committed themselves to their manoeuvre the presence of advance 'warning' signs is an important consideration.
So, definitive evidence of the presence or otherwise of advance signs is important. GSV is no help as it's too dated.
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This forums traffic seems to have died off recently?
Has pepipoo migrated again?
No, and there's plenty keeping me busy, anyway
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This forums traffic seems to have died off recently?
Has pepipoo migrated again?
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And no advance warning sign(s)?
Is unclear signage enough?
I have seen an appeal that won with that argument but not sure on exact wording to use,
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And no advance warning sign(s)?
No none that I could see!
You have to be turning before you see the sign and that is a very busy road.
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And no advance warning sign(s)?
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I just took pictures of the signage from a road pov.. theres no way a car could see it unless craning their neck, which is a ridiculous requirement for all turns when driving.
So I would argue the signage is insufficient.
(https://i.imgur.com/LgwpPwl.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1fzrow3.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ddgg6Rl.jpeg)
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I have just been sent a PCN for this left turn onto costons lane (failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone)
I hadnt a clue and couldnt see the sign at all. It doesnt look like a pedestrian zone either.
(https://i.imgur.com/30riMz9.png?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/EO0Uzgh.jpeg)
GROUNDS OF REPRESENTATION:
(https://i.imgur.com/2E0s5Gr.jpeg)
COSTONS LANE (Maps hasnt got the signage up yet):
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Costons+Ln,+Greenford/@51.5318565,-0.3494764,3a,75y,203.08h,84.13t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1snjej0DMtUUzHq-wPRbW2vQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D5.871931226502838%26panoid%3Dnjej0DMtUUzHq-wPRbW2vQ%26yaw%3D203.07660494515846!7i13312!8i6656!4m6!3m5!1s0x48761294211ead1d:0x242f5756e10392c6!8m2!3d51.5305006!4d-0.3484013!16s%2Fg%2F1ttdxy7w?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDcwNy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
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The wording of the letter says |the grounds for making an appeal are set out in the form"
And it says you may have to pay £240 if you make representations before 28 days..
THis is such a money grabbing scheme and it was an honest mistake. I think they are new and unclear signs.
Any idea how to appeal it safely?
Chris