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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: chand on October 15, 2023, 09:05:06 pm

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: Hippocrates on January 11, 2024, 10:06:08 am

Well done.  Was there ever a NOR sent?

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: cp8759 on January 11, 2024, 12:10:46 am

Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1SUWcKNt81rdHkmkJyC6llVvdT-a_8OQI).

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: chand on December 05, 2023, 12:13:10 pm

I didn't receive any reply by post as of today for the appeal. So out of curiosity I checked the PCN status on TFL website and found the appeal as rejected on 09th Nov, as below.

09 Nov 2023    Rejected Representation - Discount Period Reset. TFL has rejected a representation for this PCN. The discount period has been reset for a specific duration.


I didn't receive any rejection letter so far.

Should I ask them to send the rejection letter or go for final challenge, only a few days left if consider 28 days.

Thanks for advise.

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: chand on October 21, 2023, 10:11:05 pm

Appealed today :

Dear Transport for London,

I challenge liability for PCN GX10193723 on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur. This is because while my vehicle did stop within the yellow box markings, that stop was not caused by the presence of stationary vehicles, as the video clearly shows that there is ample space ahead of my vehicle outside of the box.

It follows that the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


--------------

Thanks for the advise, will keep the forum updated on the progress.

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: MrChips on October 21, 2023, 06:29:58 pm

I'd listen to cp8759 if I was you.

Any adjudicator will say your first and third points are irrelevant to the contravention.

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: cp8759 on October 21, 2023, 06:12:52 pm

Quote from: chand on October 21, 2023, 11:49:22 am

Please let me know if you have comments.

I've been doing this for a very long time, so please don't take this the wrong way, but my advice is to throw your draft in the bin and use what I have drafted for you in the post above (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/tfl-code-31-entering-and-stopping-in-a-box-junction-beckton-roundabouta406a13-ye/msg7589/#msg7589).

You just need to copy / paste.

If the representation is rejected, I am happy to handle the tribunal appeal for you.

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: chand on October 21, 2023, 11:49:22 am

Pl see my draft based on suggestions with little modification:

-----------------
I challenge liability for PCN GX10193723 on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur. This is because :
1)   At the point of entry no other stationary vehicle inside the box on my path.
2)   Momentarily slowed/stopped for about 3 secs at the other end before clearing the box because I thought, have exited the box.
That stop ( 3 Secs)  was not caused by the presence of stationary vehicles, as the video clearly shows that there is ample space ahead of my vehicle outside of the box
3)    I did not obstruct any vehicles coming from any other directions.
It follows that the PCN must be cancelled.



-------------------------

Please let me know if you have comments.

Thanks

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: cp8759 on October 17, 2023, 08:57:23 pm

Have you sent the representation I drafted for you?

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: chand on October 17, 2023, 11:38:18 am

Thanks for all your suggestions.

PCN posted already. My car is one in the middle of the 3 cars  going from south to north.

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: cp8759 on October 17, 2023, 12:46:38 am

This is an easy appeal, as the video shows no contravention. Send this for now:

Dear Transport for London,

I challenge liability for PCN GX10193723 on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur. This is because while my vehicle did stop within the yellow box markings, that stop was not caused by the presence of stationary vehicles, as the video clearly shows that there is ample space ahead of my vehicle outside of the box.

It follows that the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Send that online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation screen, I'll be happy to represent you at the tribunal if they reject.

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: H C Andersen on October 16, 2023, 11:37:29 am

You've not said which car's yours and we haven't seen the PCN either, pl post.

Also:
When I reached the other end of the box slowed down/stopped ( 3 Secs ) as I thought  exited the box. But realized that I have to go forward a bit more to clear the box. So moved a bit and cleared the yellow box.

If yours is the middle car of the three, you didn't clear the box until the traffic was moving.

You must have seen the video numerous times now, so how does what actually happened tie-in with what you thought at the time?

'....has to stop in the junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles' is the key prohibition. As regards the adjudicator- I think we can assume TfL would reject any reps - you would have to convince them that you:
1. Were not stopped in the junction for more than what would be classed as a de minimis period; and/or
2. Were not stopped due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

An adjudicator is not Mr Spock and cannot read minds i.e. cannot know what thought process caused you to stop. They can ask you and then use their eyes and experience by looking at the video.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

IMO, for an experienced driver there wasn't room to exit when you stopped. Cars are not sardines, although some do resemble cans. Just because your car (if it's the one we think) could have been shoe-horned into a gap IMO this would have been inconsiderate at best and dangerous at worst because you could see the other car's intended direction of travel i.e. across your bows. You had no choice but to cede the carriageway to them which is why you stopped.

But you could advance an alternative at adjudication.

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: MrChips on October 16, 2023, 11:05:50 am

Also, (in general) a car can be moving in front of you when you enter but stationary by the time you reach the other side.  If that car then blocks you in the box, that's also a PCN.  Hence the Highway Code guidance that there should be a vacant exit on the other side of the box before you enter.  The HC actually goes further than this and says you must have a clear exit, but that's not strictly true.

In your actual case, I'd tend to agree that this one should be appealable as you seem to stop in the box when there's actually no need to and you could have manoeuvred forward to fully exit if you had been minded to.  Some adjudicators seem to be a bit harsh on this sort of thing so I wouldn't say this is a 100% guaranteed win but I'd put your odds definitely in excess of 50%.  It would definitely work in your favour if you can demonstrate you stopped where you did not because of the car in front but because of some other reason, e.g. thinking you'd already cleared the box.

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: Incandescent on October 16, 2023, 10:55:30 am

Well, having now looked at the video, it is clear that the blue car on your left was in contravention, but for yourself, I'd say there was no contravention. You did not have to stop in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles from what I see, as there was room beside the red car. You say you thought you had cleared the box, and the video shows you stopping partly in it then moving forward when you realised you were not all out of it so confirms your story.  This is not an offence.  Of course, inevitably, with the thousands of pounds the council well be earning from this YBJ, you'll have to take them to London Tribunals. This means risking the full PCN penalty, the discount option is not available there.

BTW you need to alter your view on what YBJs involve for the motorist or you'll get loads more PCNs.

Quote

1)   At the point of entry no other stationary vehicle was inside the box on my path.

Any stationary vehicle on the other side of the box that forces you to stop inside it, will get you a PCN too.

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: chand on October 16, 2023, 10:20:40 am

Access given to all to view that video. Sorry, didn't realize it was restricted.

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: Incandescent on October 16, 2023, 12:27:06 am

+1
The video is their sole evidence, so we must see it.

Title: Re: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: DancingDad on October 15, 2023, 11:06:32 pm

You'll need to allow access to the Video on google drive

Title: TFL, Code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction, Beckton roundabout/A406/A13, Yellow Box
Post by: chand on October 15, 2023, 09:05:06 pm

Hi,


I received the attached PCN for “Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited” from TFL. By looking at the video there was no stationary vehicle in front on entry into the yellow box. When I reached the other end of the box slowed down/stopped ( 3 Secs ) as I thought  exited the box. But realized that I have to go forward a bit more to clear the box. So moved a bit and cleared the yellow box.

I don’t seem to obstruct any vehicle coming from any directions.
So to summary my points on appeal could be

1)   At the point of entry no other stationary vehicle was inside the box on my path.
2)   Momentarily slowed/stopped for about 3 secs at the other end then exited the box
3)   On the whole, I did not obstruct any other vehicles coming from any other directions.


Experts in the group please advise on the correct points and wording to appeal. Any help is greatly appreciated.


Thanks

Link to video    : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1W1tFy_iyKRyUy5uQ8C8QJtI6KlMhkyad/view?usp=sharing
link to googleMap: https://maps.app.goo.gl/df8mSSjTgpMcSCXz6


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