Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: MachineGunJoe on June 27, 2025, 04:31:28 pm
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It has happened before, more than once. The register will be corrected. In 10 years I've not heard of any council continuing to try and enforce in these circumstances, so I presume LT are efficient in letting Councils know.
Please let us know the case number and date of hearing.
Enfield Council seems to make the rules up as they go, so it wouldn’t surprise me…
Case number 2250338622 - hearing was yesterday, 6 October.
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Updating to say I had my tribunal yesterday and my appeal was allowed.
However I’ve now found myself in a weird situation where the tribunal has incorrectly logged the outcome as “appeal refused”.
The direction says “Cancel the PCN” and the last line of the adjudicator’s comments says “The appeal is allowed.”
I called London Tribunals who said they will refer to the case manager to correct, however the letter I’ll receive regarding the outcome will say the appeal has both been refused and allowed.
My concern is the council will see “appeal refused” and send a letter demanding payment, causing wasted time and effort on my part to resolve. I’ve tried calling the council’s parking enforcement team twice - both times cut off after being on hold after 20mins.
Has this happened to anyone else?
It has happened before, more than once. The register will be corrected. In 10 years I've not heard of any council continuing to try and enforce in these circumstances, so I presume LT are efficient in letting Councils know.
Please let us know the case number and date of hearing.
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Updating to say I had my tribunal yesterday and my appeal was allowed.
However I’ve now found myself in a weird situation where the tribunal has incorrectly logged the outcome as “appeal refused”.
The direction says “Cancel the PCN” and the last line of the adjudicator’s comments says “The appeal is allowed.”
I called London Tribunals who said they will refer to the case manager to correct, however the letter I’ll receive regarding the outcome will say the appeal has both been refused and allowed.
My concern is the council will see “appeal refused” and send a letter demanding payment, causing wasted time and effort on my part to resolve. I’ve tried calling the council’s parking enforcement team twice - both times cut off after being on hold after 20mins.
Has this happened to anyone else?
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1. I make this collateral challenge as the PCN does not state mandatory information as follows provided @ Paras. 4(8 ) (v) which in turn relates to (iii)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted
Therefore, the PCN is not valid as it is missing mandatory information. Do you want representation? But I am in Kos that day.
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Updating to say tribunal is scheduled for 6 October. Will update with outcome after.
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Understood. Will spell that out too - thanks for your advice.
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I will mention this impossibility in my tribunal appeal - but would it count for anything with the adjudicator as it was written in the NOR, not the original PCN?
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The fact that the PCN does NOT give the location as Southbury is the key. The council want their cake and eat it too.
The idiom "wanting to have your cake and eat it too" means wanting to enjoy the benefits of two incompatible things at the same time. It's used to describe situations where someone desires to have it both ways, without facing the negative consequences of either option.
If you were in The Town then your argument of turning right has merit. If they now claim that you were not in The Town but instead Southbury then the PCN is incorrect.
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A gentle bump as it’s been just over a week since I first posted. Would appreciate a sense check that what I’ve written in my first appeal is fine and there’s nothing more to add before I begin the tribunal process. Many thanks
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yes they are talking bo!!ox it is impossible to "approach" the box junction from southbury road as the box starts at the beginning of S Rd. you can only approach from The town, Silver street or as the OP did London Road.
I think you will find that very oddly the left side is southbury Rd and the right side The Town. possibly the street name has been placed at the wrong point.
I will mention this impossibility in my tribunal appeal - but would it count for anything with the adjudicator as it was written in the NOR, not the original PCN?
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The location given in the PCN is: The Town EN2 Box Junction
The NOR states: 'we would also state that....we consider your approach to the box junction to be from Southbury Road.' Now, they said this to counter your argument about turning right i.e. you weren't because this manoeuvre had already been completed. In which case, why is the location not given as Southbury Road as the contravention must have occurred wholly in this road!
yes they are talking bo!!ox it is impossible to "approach" the box junction from southbury road as the box starts at the beginning of S Rd. you can only approach from The town, Silver street or as the OP did London Road.
I think you will find that very oddly the left side is southbury Rd and the right side The Town. possibly the street name has been placed at the wrong point.
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The location given in the PCN is: The Town EN2 Box Junction
The NOR states: 'we would also state that....we consider your approach to the box junction to be from Southbury Road.' Now, they said this to counter your argument about turning right i.e. you weren't because this manoeuvre had already been completed. In which case, why is the location not given as Southbury Road as the contravention must have occurred wholly in this road!
Yes, they seem to have confused themselves there. At tribunal would they take that into account, or it is solely based on the details of the original PCN?
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The location given in the PCN is: The Town EN2 Box Junction
The NOR states: 'we would also state that....we consider your approach to the box junction to be from Southbury Road.' Now, they said this to counter your argument about turning right i.e. you weren't because this manoeuvre had already been completed. In which case, why is the location not given as Southbury Road as the contravention must have occurred wholly in this road!
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yes bizzare "the town" starts at barclays next to the market place and basically encompasses the properties facing the fountain. with the odd exception of 2 or 3 with "the town" address which are opposite Lloyds bank, which despite having a "southbury road" sign on the wall its address is 1 silver street :o :(
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How odd! I'm relatively local as well...
By bizarre coincidence, my very first introduction to Pepipoo involved a PCN I received on The Town (the bit before the junction near Barclays). The experts helped me get off as the loading bay dimensions didn't tally with the traffic order :)
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that is correct
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I bow to your vast experience, but am slightly surprised as there is a sign on the wall of Lloyds Bank, adjacent with where the OP stopped, saying Southbury Road.
Thanks for your suggestion, but the location is indeed correct. Bizarrely, the left side of the road is Southbury Road. The right side is The Town. If you look at the street view on the right side, you’ll see the address written on number 36. The box junction technically spans both roads.
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Please also post the video, which is the evidence.
Apologies - I assumed the evidence would be viewed on the website given on the PCN. I’ve taken a screen recording as there doesn’t appear to be a way for me to download it.
Video evidence (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fsorl29J9dgJXDZnfQv8b-JL1yjCrItE/view?usp=drivesdk)
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I bow to your vast experience, but am slightly surprised as there is a sign on the wall of Lloyds Bank, adjacent with where the OP stopped, saying Southbury Road.
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I looked at the location for which the council are the naming authority and I think it is correct
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Apart from anything else, the location on the PCN seems wrong. You stopped in the box junction on Southbury Road, not the one on The Town (the smaller one just before).
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Please also post the video, which is the evidence.
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Would like a sense check please. I’ve already appealed the PCN and have received a notice of rejection, so moving ahead with appealing at tribunal.
I looked at past successful tribunals at this location with similar circumstances to my own and used the relevant ones in my initial appeal to the council. Is there anything I’ve overlooked? Would be grateful for a second pair of eyes please.
Front of PCN (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jEN1eXPeDm82duUTeMxSDSA2vhjvmP9X/view?usp=drivesdk)
Back of PCN (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d88W-E-LcWzAXsuyVcW4XDE1ihuKbrx6/view?usp=drivesdk)
Date appeal was submitted - 20/05/25
My appeal text (using the maximum character limit allowed):
I wish it be noted there is no option to appeal here on the legal grounds that there was "no contravention of a traffic order or failure to comply with an indication on a sign" - which are grounds on which I am appealing.
This box junction is on the other side of a bend, where a driver approaching cannot reasonably be expected to know whether there is traffic preventing clear passage beforehand, which are the circumstances in this instance. Upon realising the close proximity of the box junction, I continued to roll forward into the space on the other side - as can be seen in the video evidence. I stopped when I believed I was clear of the junction.
Looking out my right mirror, I could not see any road markings for the exit of the junction as they had been worn away. Looking out my left mirror, it appeared my rear tyres were in line with the markings. I would have crept forward more otherwise.
The video evidence also shows me only stopped for 2 seconds, which is legally insignificant.
Notice of rejection page 1 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MfMCHwNYrn6Ud9SXs6BA3CqUhrYG4U-Q/view?usp=drivesdk)
Notice of rejection page 2 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Az1L7iUORxYSZm_tskSnD6ONvuO15g3D/view?usp=drivesdk)
One thing extra I will address in my tribunal appeal is a response to the statement in the Notice of Rejection that they consider my approach to the box junction to be from Southbury Road. This is incorrect as can be seen from the video evidence, as I was travelling on London Road and turned right into Southbury Road/The Town where I was immediately met with the box junction. It’s impossible to complete the right turn without crossing the box junction.
Google Streetview of location (https://maps.app.goo.gl/AsPvJNJHPfHUHuNZ6)
Any errors in my appeal, or anything I’ve omitted that could be flagged would be greatly appreciated.