Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: pepipoo on June 21, 2023, 04:04:09 pm

Title: Re: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: cp8759 on October 15, 2023, 12:54:31 pm
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1khTbK4tFvYMrs59t5xlNqXuyukfVK9YO).
Title: Re: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: pepipoo on August 30, 2023, 03:58:04 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on August 27, 2023, 01:27:19 pm
Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?

Going it alone can be a recipe for disaster, as shown by this case: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/warwickshire-cc-pcn-code-24-not-within-markings-of-bay-lakin-road-warwick/


That's very kind of you to offer - I'll reply to your PM. Thank you.
Title: Re: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: cp8759 on August 27, 2023, 01:27:19 pm
Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?

Going it alone can be a recipe for disaster, as shown by this case: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/warwickshire-cc-pcn-code-24-not-within-markings-of-bay-lakin-road-warwick/
Title: Re: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: pepipoo on August 22, 2023, 05:23:15 pm
Thank you, any other thoughts would be appreciated before I submit reps!
Title: Re: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: DancingDad on August 21, 2023, 03:13:56 pm
With whatever is put to tribunal, I would suggest adding that the signage as evidenced by the CEO pics cannot be said to show no loading, the relevant and important words being partially covered by the detail sheet.
It is accepted that the wording can still be made out but the placement of the sheet covers a significant portion, giving the impression that the council were deliberately trying to cover the words.
Title: Re: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: pepipoo on August 21, 2023, 10:33:37 am
So as anticipated, they have rejected representations and have sent through the London Tribunals paperwork. What should my representations state for the Tribunal? Thank you for any input as always!

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: cp8759 on July 20, 2023, 09:01:30 pm
My expectation is that the council will reject, then we file an appeal at the tribunal and they'll decide they don't want to contest it.
Title: Re: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: pepipoo on July 19, 2023, 07:08:04 pm
That feels way too easy, I guess I'll give that a go!
Title: Re: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: cp8759 on July 19, 2023, 04:08:33 pm
This is easy as it looks like the CEO selected the wrong contravention code:

Dear London Borough of Waltham Forest,

My vehicle was parked in a designated parking place, rather than in a location with a loading ban. It follows that the contravention alleged on the PCN could not have occurred.

Yours faithfully,

If the CEO had issued a code 21 PCN it would be a different story, but they only get one shot at getting it right.
Title: Re: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: pepipoo on July 19, 2023, 04:00:45 pm
Hi all,

The NTO has come through as attached - I'd appreciate any help on how to submit reps.

Thank you![attach=1][attach=2][attach=3][attach=4]

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: pepipoo on June 24, 2023, 08:41:51 am
That makes sense, I'll await the NTO. Thank you!
Title: Re: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: cp8759 on June 23, 2023, 01:14:53 pm
EIR response:

In particular please could you provide the suspension logs showing when the suspension was requested and by whom,

The suspension information is taken from the gully programme and an extract of the programme showing Connaught Road is provided as attached. The signage was requested to be put in place, by the contractor on behalf of the council, as part of the routine gully cleaning programme by the council’s drainage Supervisor

When the signs were installed, and when they were removed.
Signs were installed 15th May 2023 & removed 22nd May 2023. 14 signs in total.

I also understand there will be a log of the VRMs of vehicles that were parked when the suspension sign was put up, while I appreciate the VRMs themselves are personal data and cannot be disclosed in full, I would nonetheless like to see a redacted copy of this log.

A log of VRM’s is not legally required to be taken, and is not taken at the time of the initial installation of signs.

I remind you that if the suspension was requested by a company, the name of that company is not personal data and it cannot be withheld on the grounds of GDPR, as GDPR does not apply to limited companies.

Suspensions for our gully programme are not requested by a company but is carried out as routine highway maintenance by the council so the requestor is the council.

Please also supply any photos taken at the time the signs were put up, including photos of any vehicles that were present at the time the signs were put up.

No photos were taken of the signs or any vehicles when the suspension signs were initially placed.

Please also supply any photos taken at the time of any subsequent inspections of the signage. Please supply any records or information held that might indicate that additional signage was installed after the suspension came into force, together with any photos taken at the time of installation of any such signage, and a redacted copy of any further VRM log taken at the time.

No photos are taken but the works are supervised by a council officer at all times, this includes a review of any suspension sign installation.

Finally if the suspension was supported by a Temporary Traffic Regulation Order, I also require the following:
A copy of the actual Temporary Traffic Regulation Order (this is not to be confused with the Notice of Making), in PDF format with searchable / selectable text, inclusive of all schedules; 2) Copy of the notices sent, at least 7 days prior to making the order, to the chief officer of police and the chief officer of the fire authority; 3) Copies of the notices published in one or more newspapers circulating in the area not less than 7 days before making and within 14 days after making the order, 4) A list of the newspapers where the notices at point 3 above were actually published and the dates of publication.

No TTRO is required as this is a Controlled Parking Zone and a copy of the relevant Traffic Order that permits the suspension has been sent separately by email as the file is too large to attach – Section 13 is applicable

(https://i.imgur.com/Nq0OkuR.png)


Obviously if there's no TTRO the PCN is a bit of a joke really, just wait for the Notice to Owner (assuming it's your vehicle and you have the V5C).
Title: Re: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: pepipoo on June 22, 2023, 12:11:45 pm
My representations were copied and pasted from what you suggested:

Dear London Borough of Waltham Forest,

I challenge liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. The Schedule to The Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure Regulations 1992 provides that:
1. A notice shall be displayed in a prominent position at each end of the length of road to which the order relates and at the points at which it will be necessary for vehicles or pedestrians to diverge from the road, stating the effect of the order and, where applicable, the alternative route or routes available for traffic.

2. Each such notice shall be displayed throughout the period during which the order is in force and the traffic authority shall take all reasonable steps to ensure that the notices remain in a legible condition and continue to be so displayed for so long as the order remains in force or are promptly replaced as often as occasion requires during that period.
On this occasion there was no notice advising that a TTRO had been made, it follows that the order was invalid in any event.

Yours faithfully,


And here is the original PCN

(https://i.imgur.com/4QUEjDS.jpg)
Title: Re: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: cp8759 on June 21, 2023, 11:58:44 pm
Please post up:

1) the PCN without any redactions (see guidance here: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/ )
2) The informal representations you sent
Title: PCN 02 Parked on loading/unloading in a restricted street - Waltham Forest
Post by: pepipoo on June 21, 2023, 04:04:09 pm
Hi all, I was suggested to put a post up here following on from the closure of pepipoo (not quite sure how my username was allowed)

The original images posted:

(https://i.imgur.com/e6FfxPP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ErXGh72.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/U5bMhR9.jpg)

And the response to representations:

(https://i.imgur.com/olUVDin.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/udFexXB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/HnFuKmI.jpg)

cp8759 suggested on pepipoo that the response was inadequate - do I need to now wait for the NTO and any ideas what I should respond with?

Thank you very much for any help!