Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Figaro on June 25, 2025, 03:26:15 pm
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OK because you've more experience I will follow your advice.
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I would send what I did for you.
You're making it far too complicated.
No sign as missing = no contravention.
Repeater sign - I saw and moved out.
Keep it simple so they understand.
I've edited it a bit - enclose your pic showing no sign.
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As indicated in my initial representations, there was no regulatory sign at the start of the bus lane at the time of the alleged contravention to show that any restriction applied.
The sign was missing as I expect the authority knows so there was no contravention, and I enclose a picture to show you.
As soon as I saw the repeater sign around the bend I moved out of the lane as your video shows.
I trust this makes the situation crystal clear and look forward to your early confirmation of cancellation.
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Let me know if you don't like anything to correct it. If everything is fine then tomorrow will make the representation.
I make these formal representations against the EN:
a) The Lambeth Council has not adhered to the rules regarding bus lanes. According to the Traffic Sign Manual Chapter 3 chapter 9.3.5 p.90 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/traffic-signs-manual “The sign to diagram 959B (S9‑4‑10, see Figure 9-3) is a regulatory sign and should be placed as near as practicable to the start of the lane, i.e. where the continuous line to diagram 1049A begins.” As you can see on GoogleMaps (date April 2025) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Norwood+Rd,+London/@51.4505665,-0.1006691,3a,67y,325.51h,85.46t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBkqbYeNmIeK9z7fgEONHeQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D4.540000000000006%26panoid%3DBkqbYeNmIeK9z7fgEONHeQ%26yaw%3D325.51!7i16384!8i8192!4m7!3m6!1s0x4876040fbe9ad97d:0xb7e14164a527ad23!8m2!3d51.4431204!4d-0.1051052!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F1tf64y_v?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYyMy4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D and in picture 1 taken on 25-06-2025 there is no regulatory sign to diagram 959B in the beginning of the bus lane which invalidates the PCN.
b) The video does not support the alleged contravention as there is no evidence of the sign to diagram 958 allegedly passed. I entered the lane because there was no sign to diagram 959B. As soon as I saw the sign that was indicating that motorcycles are not allowed I exited the lane as you can clearly see in the video. I have to stress that the visibility of this sign is obstructed by the trees and is only visible 10m in advance as the pictures 2, 3 and 4 prove.
I trust this makes the situation crystal clear and look forward to your early confirmation of cancellation.
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That's what I meant in point 2.
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As indicated in my initial representations, there was no regulatory sign at the start of the bus lane at the time of the alleged contravention to show that any restriction applied.
The sign was missing as I'm sure the authority knows.
As soon as I saw the repeater sign around the bend I moved out of the lane as your video shows.
I trust this makes the situation crystal clear and look forward to your early confirmation of cancellation.
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Ok try this:
I make these formal representations against the EN:
1. The video does not support the alleged contravention as there is no evidence of the sign to diagram 958 allegedly passed.
2. Therefore, the signage as advised by Chapter Three of Traffic Signs Manual is not present.
Add any other points which you think are correct and get back.
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So:
I require you to consider my informal challenge as formal representations against the Enforcement Notice. Please cancel both notices.
BEFORE you do this, please screenshot the page as above.
Are you sure about this as I've made some mistakes in my challenge. I wrote that motorcycles are allowed by default in bus lanes which is a mistake. I think it's better if I change the wording in the representation.
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So:
I require you to consider my informal challenge as formal representations against the Enforcement Notice. Please cancel both notices. Edited.
BEFORE you do this, please screenshot the page as above.
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Sorry I have joined this thread late as I had lost my passport on the 27th. Please screenshot the web page re payment and making reps. I am happy to assist with this one all the way.
I see no sign to diagram 958 either - which should be place 20 metres before the taper.
This is fatal for their case in red:
Penalty Charge Notice details
Ticket ReferenceLJ33030273
PCN process information
Vehicle Registration NumberLB11NTK
ColourBLACK
MakeAPRILIA
Contravention34j - Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement)
LocationNorwood Road (CEA(A))
First seen at Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:39
Issued at Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:39
Served by Post
Please pay £160.00 now.
You have already challenged this PCN and we replied on Thu, 24 Jul 2025. You cannot challenge twice
What did you write in your first challenge please?
Here is what I wrote:
Dear Sir/Madam,
I believe the PCN was issued unfairly and I am not liable for the amount for the following reasons:
A) There is conflicting signage. In the begging of the bus lane as you can see picture 1 and in on googlemaps (date April 2025) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Norwood+Rd,+London/@51.4505665,-0.1006691,3a,67y,325.51h,85.46t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBkqbYeNmIeK9z7fgEONHeQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D4.540000000000006%26panoid%3DBkqbYeNmIeK9z7fgEONHeQ%26yaw%3D325.51!7i16384!8i8192!4m7!3m6!1s0x4876040fbe9ad97d:0xb7e14164a527ad23!8m2!3d51.4431204!4d-0.1051052!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F1tf64y_v?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYyMy4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
there is no sign describing which vehicles are permitted hence the law stipulates that motorcycles are allowed. After 50 meters there is another sign (the one you claim I've contravened) which states that motorcycles are not allowed. The fact that is conflicting signage invalidates your PCN.
B) The sign is obstructed. As you can see in pictures 2,3 and 4 the sign is obstructed by the trees and only visible 10 meter in advance. As you can clearly see on the video as soon as I saw the sign I exited the lane. The law stipulated that the signage must be unobstructed, and clearly visible at least 30 metres before the commencement of a Bus Lane. This also invalidates your PCN.
Regards
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YEs and No.
By experience don't rely on signage. Once I challenged a ticket cause the sign was twisted 90 degrees. basically facing the side walk. It got rejected. Reason: bus lane are always forbidden to motor vehicles unless specified. ERGO no sign => don't enter.
Have you started a thread? It depends how you argued the sign and where it was placed and whether there was a warning sign in place.
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Sorry I have joined this thread late as I had lost my passport on the 27th. Please screenshot the web page re payment and making reps. I am happy to assist with this one all the way.
I see no sign to diagram 958 either - which should be place 20 metres before the taper.
This is fatal for their case in red:
Penalty Charge Notice details
Ticket ReferenceLJ33030273
PCN process information
Vehicle Registration NumberLB11NTK
ColourBLACK
MakeAPRILIA
Contravention34j - Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement)
LocationNorwood Road (CEA(A))
First seen at Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:39
Issued at Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:39
Served by Post
Please pay £160.00 now.
You have already challenged this PCN and we replied on Thu, 24 Jul 2025. You cannot challenge twice
What did you write in your first challenge please?
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attachments
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Continuing on the subject I made an informal challenge arguing that there was no sign in the beginning of the bus lane. The challenge was rejected by receiving the letter in the attachment which doesn't have a reference number (I don't know if this is a mistake from their part) and now I received the enforcement notice and the representation form which I also attach.
I made a small research and found that in the "traffic sign manual chapter 3" in chapter 9.3.5 page 90 says:
The bus lane sign is a regulatory sign and should be placed as near as practicable to the start of the lane
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/traffic-signs-manual
Would appreciate if someone helps me with the wording of the representation.
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Just packing my bags for flight home. Don't pay it please. Back tomorrow. Screenshot all webpages re price increases.
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YEs and No.
By experience don't rely on signage. Once I challenged a ticket cause the sign was twisted 90 degrees. basically facing the side walk. It got rejected. Reason: bus lane are always forbidden to motor vehicles unless specified. ERGO no sign => don't enter.
Motorcycles are allowed if there is no sign.
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YEs and No.
By experience don't rely on signage. Once I challenged a ticket cause the sign was twisted 90 degrees. basically facing the side walk. It got rejected. Reason: bus lane are always forbidden to motor vehicles unless specified. ERGO no sign => don't enter.
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There may be other factors including camera authorisation and PCN/website wording issues, but the missing sign is a solid win IMO as you obeyed the later one that is there.
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I went and took some pictures. There is no sign in the beginning of the bus lane and the visibility of the sign is obstructed by the trees and the turn.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I cannot find record that has been paid, so I assume it was approved.
Mine was same 34J too.
please see some links here, hope you will find these useful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2PJfdNlLhE
https://www.visordown.com/news/general/open-all-london-bus-lanes-motorcyclists-says-report
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/motorcycle_in_bus_lane
They have added a CCTV camera sign on the left sign since 2018. Other things may have changed meanwhile.
This is the challenge I've submitted, but I would add few other relevant points to the below which apply to your case:
"I am writing to challenge the above penalty charge notice (PCN). I was issued with a PCN - 34J of being in a bus lane on the xx/xx/2018 and received the letter at my address Friday xx xx 2018. I believe the PCN was issued unfairly and I am not liable for the amount for the following reasons:
A) - When turning from Croxted Road onto Norwood Road there is no sign warning of CCTV enforcement of the Bus Lane as showed in the enclosed pictures B1 (taken by me on the ...... 2018) and C2 (from Google street). This is contrary to Lambeth's stated CCTV policy which includes the following paragraph:
2.3.1 The primary objective of any CCTV camera enforcement system (‘the system’) is to ensure the safe and efficient operation of the road network by deterring motorists from breaking road traffic restrictions and detecting those that do. To do this, the system needs to be well publicised and indicated with lawful traffic signs. (Code of Practice for Operation of CCTV Enforcement Cameras in the London Borough of Lambeth - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/161122/response/ 402230/attach/3/CCTVCodeofPractice332Oct2011%201.pdf - retrieved on the.....)
B) - The Enforcement Operations Agreement Appendix 09 stated:
1.16 A representation is made on the basis that the driver had to temporarily drive in a bus lane, in order to avoid colliding with another vehicle or to allow an emergency services vehicle to pass. Bus Lane View the evidence to validate the representation. Accept N N C111B - Prevented from proceeding by an emergency (http://content.tfl.gov.uk/eops-schedule2-appendix9-tfl-business-rules.pdf - retrieved on the ...)
As showed in the photos enclosed A1 and A2 retrieved from the Lambeth parking website, and also highlighted from the enclosed merged pictures C1, it is clear that the manoeuvre is finalized to avoid the car preceding which wrongly moved to the left of the lane.
C) - No signage is shown in the pictures A1 and A2 retrieved from on the Lambeth parking website or other features which make difficult to locate the end of the lane and estimated the length of the manoeuvre.
D) - Turning from Croxted road the blue signage at the beginning of the bus lane is placed on the left and the signage showing “CCTV camera enforcement” is not present (see picture B2). Moreover, it can be easily covered up the van ahead as shown in picture A3.
E) - The colour of the bus lane in Norwood Road was previously surfaced in coloured material in order to demarcate it more emphatically and to discourage encroachment (see picture C2 retrieved from internet dated 29 May 2012).
Venetian red (BS381C – colour 1434) surfacing has been shown to aid bus lane compliance; however, it adversely impacts on the streetscape visually and requires additional maintenance. It should therefore only be used where there is a proven need to improve compliance (https://consultations.tfl. gov.uk/policy/streetscape-guidance/user_uploads/part-d---section-nine---physical-design-and-materials---carriageways.pdf - retrieved on the .....)
This is not present anymore and the colour is the same of the rest of the pavement (see pictures A1/A2).
F) - No genuine advantage has been obtained considering the preceding car has not been overpassed and I was directed to the right of the carriage to turn right to the junction as shown in the enclosed picture A3.
G) - No genuine advantage has been obtained considering the absence of traffic, as shown in pictures A1/A2/A3, neither obstruction to other vehicles.
For these listed reasons, I look forward to receiving notification that the Penalty Charge Notice has been cancelled within 28 days.
Additionally, I would like also to mention that for a former challenge, found on internet and submitted by another rider for the same exact location, has been successfully accepted and the PCN cancelled by Lambeth parking in September 2012.
I would like to request the Traffic Management Orders (TMO) with amendments, to view the full CCTV videotape, a report how operator LH1474 meets the requirement at point 2.9 of the Code of Practice for Operation of CCTV Enforcement as Cameras, and the specifications of the camera 156 according with the order 2005 and Transport act 2000."
I hope you will find this useful
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AHHH Lambeth dear Lambeth!!
sorry to hear about that
I got a ticket in the same location.
It's a trap!! not sure why in Lambeth some bus lane are for moto and some not, but I have an idea ::)
I think my challenge was accepted in 2018. I will search for docs..
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Here is the PCN
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Please post up here
all sides of the PCN,
Only redact yr name & address from docs - leave all else in.
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There was a sign at the start of the lane in July 2024 but it seems to have gone at some point.
Can you go back and check? It's best to have your own pic rather than rely on Google Maps.
They may have put the sign back - but then you have Maps views to compare it with.
(https://i.imgur.com/W4NmVpF.png)
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Hi Guys,
I've received today a PCN for being in a Bus Lane with a motorcycle on Norwood Road Lambeth. The beginning of the bus lane lacks sign about who is permitted in the lane which means that motorcycles are allowed as you can see on
GoogleMaps (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Norwood+Rd,+London/@51.4505665,-0.1006691,3a,67y,325.51h,85.46t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBkqbYeNmIeK9z7fgEONHeQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D4.541193211838035%26panoid%3DBkqbYeNmIeK9z7fgEONHeQ%26yaw%3D325.5119667888349!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x4876040fbe9ad97d:0xb7e14164a527ad23!8m2!3d51.4431204!4d-0.1051052!16s%2Fg%2F1tf64y_v?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
After entering the lane there is a left turn and after 50 meters there is a sign that says that motorcycles are not allowed. Because there is a turn and trees the visibility of the sign is restricted. The position of the sign is approximately
here (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/51%C2%B027'03.6%22N+0%C2%B006'02.2%22W/@51.451097,-0.1007876,3a,75y,328.28h,88.93t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sNFpBa9cov6OzYV1MHRDqOQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D1.0741228604580044%26panoid%3DNFpBa9cov6OzYV1MHRDqOQ%26yaw%3D328.28102619148723!7i13312!8i6656!4m4!3m3!8m2!3d51.451!4d-0.1006?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
As soon as I saw the sign I exited the lane. The camera clearly shows me exiting the lane where the sign is positioned. Does anyone else has experience with anything similar or can anyone help me with the wording of the challenge?
Here is the video
https://jumpshare.com/s/bnUNAZTiZgrmxisEBLaD
Thanks in advance