Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: cosmic_explorer on June 21, 2025, 01:30:57 am
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Their excuse is total bo**cks, because there is no statutory limit on responding to reps under the LLA & TfL Act 2003.
But it's a win, so very well done for standing your ground!
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Hi all - Just an update on this. The PCN has been cancelled ! The reason they gave was because they did not reply in time. I actually got the letter by email after midnight on a Sat (so am guessing it was a system issued one). Am not sure if it was the reps I made above or indeed their lack of reply (or both) but something worked. I've attached the reply here for future use so it can inform others. Have left out the name of the Process investigation Team Leader for privacy in case. @Hippocrates - thank you for your reps wording and advice from previous cases which came in very useful. Happy to forward you the full letter if helps, just let me know.
Thanks again to everyone else on here who responded and for your excellent advice, much appreciated. You all are very decent people to take so much time out of your life to help others in stress. :)
(https://i.ibb.co/Tq42dKVS/har-cancel-1.png) (https://ibb.co/fGkFL8h5)
(https://i.ibb.co/NgQkTTHB/har-cancel-2.png) (https://ibb.co/V0rhwwP4)
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Let sleeping dogs lie for the present.
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Hi - Its been almost 4 weeks since the ticket went off hold on the website but I haven't had anything in the post from the council. I'm assuming that because the charge has doubled that my reps got rejected but it does not actually say that on the site.
I've attached the latest status on the site. Does anyone have experience of what I need to do now ? Do I continue to wait for the status to change and/or the letter through the post ? Or should I contact them and say that I have not heard anything ? How would I even contact them ?
Don't want to miss the appeal on a technicality ! Many thanks in advance.
http://(https://i.imgur.com/SGUNqfj.jpeg)
http://(https://i.imgur.com/599jof5.jpeg)
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You do know the PCN is flawed, which should give you a good chance at adjudication.
Given that any hearing would likely be some weeks away, I suggest you submit a Subject Access Request to the council for copies of the documents from the registered keeper by which they claimed to be relieved of liability as registered keeper.
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The PCN is still flawed. I have numerous consolidated cases in October. Prod me as super busy.
Apologies - replies crossed. Many thanks for taking the time. Appreciate it especially as you are very busy. I will nudge you as soon as I get the letter through the post as I expect can't do much more till then ?
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Thank you very much for your insight. Yes, it is longer than 6mths (1yr). Funnily enough I did think about the "its a lease vehicle" angle as I got out of a parking ticket once because they had not sent a copy of the lease/hire agreement with the ticket as they are legally obliged to do and they promptly cancelled :). But I did not see any similar arguments made here in my forum searches and did not receive any such advice in this case when I first posted so I deferred to the experienced amongst here in thinking it did not apply.
But.....I did take a screenshot of my reps when I made them and I remember being careful and ticked "Not the owner of the vehicle at the material time" box and stated "I am not the Registered Keeper....." which is legally true. See attached. But they have obviously ignored this and rejected and doubled the charge anyway.
Do you think there is sufficient grounds here for your argument to still apply and win on adjudication given they ignored my stipulation that I am not the RK/Owner ? Or as you said its too late now ? I am also hoping that @Hippocrates if he has time can opine on the previous faults argument above so maybe there are 2 grounds for cancellation.
(https://i.imgur.com/wxz9mFj.jpeg)
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The PCN is still flawed. I have numerous consolidated cases in October. Prod me as super busy.
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The car is leased (am not the RK) so the hire company had sent a notice to me last month saying they have passed my details onto the council. I presume they just ticked box D i) and ii). I received the revised PCN yesterday.
Not again!
The hire-company MAY NOT make lawful reps under 'D (i) and (ii)' because the vehicle is NOT subject to a 'hiring agreement'.
The law defines a 'hiring agreement' as being one which is for less than 6 months. Yours is a lease (I'm presuming for longer than 6 months).
Your grounds of reps (too late now) should have included 'I was not the owner'.
If the lease company made reps under the 'we are a hire-company', then you should be in the clear at adjudication, should the matter get this far.
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Hi,
I have an update on this. Following on from above I finally saw a change in status on the site last week where the charge has doubled but it does not say any letter has been sent and neither have I received anything in the post a week later. I followed up on my PCN with the reps as stated above word for word and nothing more as stated by @Hippocrates.
I don’t know why it took them almost 2 mths to reply/reject. I am assuming that my representations were rejected. Please see current status on the attached images. For info, the first set of reps were from my leasing co. that advised to send the PCN to me.
I haven't received the rejection letter but am trying to get ahead of this (also why does it take 7days for them to send a letter ? :-)) hence am looking for some advice as to the next stage. Happy to pay for the time as I believe this next part is the challenge in person ? Many thanks in advance, much appreciated.
(https://i.imgur.com/K6wf4KM.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yamNRly.jpeg)
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Thought I'd have a quick read of the Systemic PCN flaws spreadsheet and Haringey's previous faults and have now made representations based on the technicality referred to here. Reading a few of Haringey's cases it seems that they have been won on appeal recently based on this.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/haringey-52(m)-pcn-nor-help-(downhills-park-rd-n17)/msg54378/#msg54378 (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/haringey-52(m)-pcn-nor-help-(downhills-park-rd-n17)/msg54378/#msg54378)
@Hippocrates Thank you for your wording which I used verbatim in my reps without adding anything else as stated ticking no contravention occurred and with no mitigating circumstances mentioned in my wording.
I hope they accept the reps. I was ready to pay tonight (grudgingly) but something was still irking me that there was no advance notice of the restriction on my route at all until I was cornered at the last second with nowhere to go whereas the approach from the other side had clear no left/right turns signs beforehand on both sides. It should be standard on both approaches surely. A bit of principle of fairness here as well.
Let see. I know they are most likely to reject but I did not mention the other cases as @Hippocrates said not to in one of his posts so will have to figure out how to appeal when the time comes and try and be successful, though am dreading that tbh! I hope someone here is kind enough to help when the time comes.
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Thank you very much for your time and your advice. Yes I'm not sure what my mind was thinking when I saw those signs just before turning. Its a combination of:
- No advance warning of upcoming restriction along my route taken so too late once I was there.
- No signs saying No left or right turn allowed at any point before that turn
- As going straight was not possible anyway in this case, I prob on focused on the lack of no right/left turn signs and it did not register as I was turning not going forward.
- Too busy following the sat nav in an area I am unfamiliar with
- The above together with looking ahead and seeing that cars were flowing on Bounds Green road so brain did not register properly the sign saying no cars allowed.
None of which are an excuse of course, its totally my fault, though genuine error and by no means reckless as the video shows. As you say my contravention was at the left turn itself not before and there are clear signs both sides above the planters.
I was hoping I could appeal on the small chance that motorists should be given advance warning when driving on a road before the no right or left turn restriction came into effect. Coming from the other side (Bounds Green Road) both sides have clear no left/turn signs so not sure if its a legal requirement to also have them on my approach (I would have thought thats logical). In my case there were none but I do not live there to go back and double check unfortunately (as GSV is only Sep 2024). This is my first ever PCN in 30years of driving.
If there was a chance that Haringey usually re-offer the discount upon rejection of any appeal then I would take the chance. But in this case not worth it as I don't have experience with them (obviously) and you said even if there were no advance warnings at all it won't make a difference to my contravention. £100 lesson. :-( My discount ends on July 1 so will pay it tom evening.
Thank you again and for all your help you provide on this forum. Your advice is much appreciated.
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My apologies! I didn't look closely enough at the photo on the PCN which having now done so, shows your car indeed turning left into Bounds Green Road. However, this does then beg the question of how did you miss these two very prominent signs ?
Looking at your route, unfortunately GSV is not sufficiently up-to-date as one tootles along virtually. Whilst the two signs you passed as you turned out into Bounds Green Road are there, (GSV = September 2024), and also all of your move along Dunsford Road, when you turn into Woodfield Way, GSV is June 2022. HOwever, the view across to Woodfield Way from the GSV Sept 2024 view shows no Flying Motorbike signs, so one has to assume the restricted zone starts some way into the streets there. Only a look with a camera can decide whether signs are missing or not, but even it they are missing, your contravention is for the left turn into Bounds Green Road passing the two restriction signs.
Sorry I can't assist you further. It must be a nightmare driving in London. Main thing, though - never rely on a satnav in London !
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Thank you for your response. In my case though I was turning left from Gordon Road onto Bounds green road (not turning right into the restriction as you mentioned) so I am coming from the other side. There is no advance notice of no left/right turn signs from my end unlike that on shown on Bounds Green Road above. Just wanted to clarify this misunderstanding. See GSV below right at the point I turned left (it was 8.30pm so by no means dark but not as bright!).
https://maps.app.goo.gl/CkTUaJv7jxMYosiYA (https://maps.app.goo.gl/CkTUaJv7jxMYosiYA)
Having looked at the GSV you linked I see there are clear no left/right turn signs shown on both sides of Bounds Green Road on the approach into Gordon Road (in fact there are 2 no left turn signs within 15 feet of each other on the left side approach !). But I was coming from Gordon Road and there are no such signs saying the same thing ie no similar no right/left signs which would have alerted me. Should it not have been the same types of signs on both approaches to the restriction ?
(https://i.imgur.com/xstynRm.jpeg)
In my situation there were also no advance signs at all on the initial route I took starting from Woodfield Way to Gordon Road right upto the point I turned above (as confirmed by GSV, see above link). My route into the zone is shown on the map here (or in my first post in case I've messed up the attachment here, sorry). There is absolutely no prior notice or warning on my route (ie on the road prior to me turning into Woodfield Way from or on the Wooodfield Way route itself) that I have entered a restricted zone right up until the end at which point I was forced to turn left from Gordon Road in order to leave the area (which is probably the safer way rather than reversing).
Not sure if this is enough to be a defence but had I seen any prior advance notice somewhere on my route I would not have reached the end or turned left from Gordon Road (at which point the offence was committed as I was leaving the restricted zone). Let me know if you need anything else. Thank you again for your time, very much appreciated.
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So here is the approach for your RH turn into Gordon Road: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/63jHNjfR3QCh9xPp8
It is just a NRT sign, with two signs below with exceptions, and is right opposite the turn, so you get no warning, but you don't with most NRT signs anyway. The two "Flying Motorbike" signs also seem prominent enough to me to be seen as you approach too. For me, the signs look adequate enough to meet their duty under Regulation 18 of The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 (aka LATOR). ANyway, here is the full text if you want to have a read: -
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/contents
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For convenience:
(https://i.imgur.com/WmhDpnV.jpeg)
You have a few days left to preserve the discount (I make the 1st the deadline), and the experts here are very busy at the moment... so give it a couple of days for comment ... but do not miss deadline.
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Hi - Wondering if anyone has advice on the above ? Many thanks
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Sorry, just re-reading the rules I forgot to add the google maps link and an image instead of attachment of the PCN. Please see here.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/CkTUaJv7jxMYosiYA (https://maps.app.goo.gl/CkTUaJv7jxMYosiYA)
https://imgur.com/a/0ou5uco (https://imgur.com/a/0ou5uco)
(https://imgur.com/a/0ou5uco)
Many thanks.
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Hi,
Am hoping for some advice on the PCN received from Haringey Council for a 52(M) on the junction of Gordon Road and Bounds Green. I believe that this has caught out a few people in the past. I read the forums for the past experiences but this one:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/haringey-52(m)-failing-to-comply-with-certain-types-of-vehicle-gordon-rd-n11-(ne/ (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/haringey-52(m)-failing-to-comply-with-certain-types-of-vehicle-gordon-rd-n11-(ne/)
does not apply anymore as the PCN language has now been changed in my case :-(. I took almost the exact same route as the poster here except that I came from the other side of the road from Bounds Green station onto Woodfield Way and there are no advanced signs of the restrictions in place if you turn into Woodfield Way from the station (unlike his case where there was a very small one on the way from the opposite end). I have attached the route I took and PCN with personal details redacted as advised.
I was picking up my elderly mum who was visiting her friend who had recently lost her husband and it is my first time driving in this area so I was just following the sat nav unfortunately. We had parked on Woodfield way facing in so the sat nav navigated the route shown attached. There were no signs turning onto Woodfield Way from the main road indicating I could not go in there so I just parked without any second thought. When I left at no point do I recall seeing the restrictions warnings on turning into Gordon Road from there either (but I cannot be 100% sure about this) or while I was on Gordon road all the way upto the junction in question. By then it’s too late as I was already at the junction. I looked at Google street view which is dated Sep 2024 and it shows no signs along the way either right upto the junction so there was no way I could have known until the last second.
Also, the video marks the offence as the moment I turned. Hence my car being on Gordon Road itself is not the reason the PCN was issued ? So the sign does not mean that road is for only resident permit holders and bicycles right ? Does that mean I should have stopped, reversed and turned back onto the road and found another route onto Bounds Green Road ?
So basically any vehicle can drive on that road right upto the junction as long as they don’t turn left or right ? Sorry for the q’s, just trying to ensure this doesn’t happen again. Still confused as to the point of the restrictions if any car can drive on both roads (as Bounds Green road itself has no vehicle restrictions) unless it’s to ease traffic congestion perhaps to stop people turning in, in which case just mark it as a simple no entry.
In any case, moot points as in the end I accept that strictly speaking I am to blame here. Simple reason is that I did not interpret that sign as saying no left or right turn was allowed by a motor vehicle, (perhaps my brain was looking for the more usual no entry or no left/right sign instead or maybe I (incorrectly) thought it related to only parking access, who knows when you have to make real time quick decisions like this). I was too busy keeping below 20 and following the sat nav in an unfamiliar area to decipher that sign in that split couple of seconds I had as I knew Bounds Green road was open to all vehicles. I should have just stopped completely for a minute to read the sign properly and figured out what it meant and what I had to do next. Lesson learned.
The car is leased (am not the RK) so the hire company had sent a notice to me last month saying they have passed my details onto the council. I presume they just ticked box D i) and ii). I received the revised PCN yesterday. My lease says that I am liable to pay any such charges (along with their £20 admin fee which I have already paid). Is there any grounds for appeal or technicality with it being a leased vehicle (ie incorrect wording, paperwork etc) that I should look out for ? And the fact that there is no advanced signage leading upto the junction, does that matter ? It really seems unfair that there is no notice of the restriction until the very last metre of my route and at that point the safest way to exit the zone is forward rather than trying to find the reverse way out of an unfamiliar area.
If there is nothing to be done then I’ll pay the fine in 10days time when its due but I’d rather give that little extra saved money to my local hospice as I’ve been doing than hand it over to the council if it can be helped as its a genuine error. Any advice is much appreciated. Thank you so much to all in advance.
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