Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: sugarray on June 20, 2025, 05:59:18 pm
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You don't go near Haringey, their day as judges in their own cause is over.
Register your appeal with the Tribunal by following the instructions in the NOR.
If unsure, come back here.
Grounds:
I was not the owner on the day in question.
Argument. In line with the London Tribunal's Chief Adjudicator's comments in their Annual Reports, the ability of a registered keeper to transfer liability on the grounds of being a 'vehicle-hire firm' and there being in existence a 'hiring agreement', as happened in this case and which representations were accepted by the authority, is subject to strict examination in the context of regulations, in particular:
The Road Traffic (Owner Liability) Regulations 2000
Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.
Specifically in this case:
The vehicle was not supplied to the appellant under a 'hiring agreement', which by law cannot exceed 6 months' duration, but under a lease with a term of 4 years. The grounds of being a 'vehicle-hire firm' etc. therefore do not apply and the authority were not permitted to accept such grounds and issue a NTO to the lessee, that is to say the appellant.
Further representations to be made upon receipt of the authority's evidence.
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So i went online on haringey to challenge but there isnt anywhere to challenge just pay and view evidence. Not sure how to proceed
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Hi All not sure how to make reprisentations here as its not allowing me online. Do I have to wait for the notice?
Where is here ? And who/what is its ?
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Hi All not sure how to make reprisentations here as its not allowing me online. Do I have to wait for the notice?
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Register appeal.
You were not the owner at the material time.
This was Paradise Hotel.
They could not make valid reps on the grounds that you were the hirer because this ground is limited to hire agreements of no more than 6 months. The authority's reply acknowledges that it is a 4-year lease. They could not accept reps on this basis and therefore you can ot e considered the 'owner', as defined.
Their NOR is also defective.
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Hi all I had to appeal and it has been rejected by Haringey. I said simply that we are not the registered keeper, that was all.
Please find rejection letter. We received this yesterday and its dated 11/08/25. There are 2 letters the same. there is a date difference onwe 23rd April the other 25th April didn't notice this previously. I added the original pcn in the folder.
Is there any help on this?
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FFBzTKybWRqdpT5A5CGKx1r_EDlkRDov?usp=sharing
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Hi any further thoughts as time has run out now.
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Pl confirm whether the company has received any correspondence from VWFS regarding these matters. If so, pl post.
None received that I know of.
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VWFS are notorious for not using correct procedure in these matters. They are not alone. See p.13 Transfer of Liability: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/ETA%20Annual%20Report%202021-22.pdf
You(that is the company) are not the registered keeper but MAY be considered to be the 'owner'(and it is 'owner' liability) but NOT if the lease company simply relied upon 'vehicle-hire' grounds because the vehicle was NOT subject to a hiring agreement but held under a lease.
Pl confirm whether the company has received any correspondence from VWFS regarding these matters. If so, pl post.
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Any more thoughts or advice on this? I'm running out of days. cheers
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Hi
The registered keeper is VWFS UK Ltd
4 yr Lease which has now been settled. The car went back last week
I was the driver this day so the pcns was given to me
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OP, both PCNs are addressed to the 'Company Secretary' therefore you as an individual have no standing in this matter, it's the Paradise Lodge Hotel which is being held liable.
When you combine this with the PCNs being served out of time on the face of it, and therefore invalid, we need to look at who's who before getting to what?
So:
Is the company the registered keeper? If so, it's a shoo-in win for you.
If they're not then was/is the vehicle is hired or leased?
What term i.e. short(<6 months) or longer?
As the driver on the day, how do you stand regarding penalties which might be owed by the company, indeed how did you come into possession of the PCNs as neither is addressed to you?
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There are advanced warning signs in both directions : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/LoszBqfnM7fzgARcA
and
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AcTpFiPGNp1w2Zgn8
They're rather small and of course easily obscured by high-sided vehicles like buses.
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Here's a screenshot from Google maps confirming the restriction on that road.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Dear all
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4YTFao1YxyjMjKwj9
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1An91YgtBGkbgO4LAOPWPyANiU5KhbwzR/view?usp=sharing
I received 2 pcns for this on the same day. I don't remember any restrictions and looking at google maps doesnt show anything. Havent been back since so will go next week. What are the thoughts here?