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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: ashirusnw on October 11, 2023, 03:29:35 pm

Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: SBBFAMB on July 28, 2025, 01:22:16 pm
Hello everyone,

My appeal has been rejected for this exaxt same case. Could someone assist me with what should be stated at tribunal level?

The link to my thread is here:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/tilling-road-nw2/

Cheers!
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ying28 on December 28, 2024, 01:20:25 pm
Quote from: sideadder on September 02, 2024, 09:14:32 pm
Today I received a PCN for this same offence - letter looks the same to the original post.

Given the successful outcome for ashirusnw and cp8759, is there any advice you can give for what to write to Barnet in terms of representations?

Thanks in advance

Hi did you pay or appeal?
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ying28 on December 28, 2024, 01:18:59 pm
Hello!

I received a PCN for the exact contravention. If I were to appeal, Do I write this:


NORTH CIRCULAR ROAD (A406) OFF SLIP ROAD, the south side from a point 3 metres south-west of the extended north easternmost building line of Garden Court Hotel, Tilling Road to its roundabout junction with the unnamed M1 Motorway slip roads

All of Tilling Road is a GLA road. This being the case, the borough cannot enforce without the prior written consent of Transport for London (which they won't have because they won't have bothered reading the legislation).

Here are a few cases won on this point:

William Samuel v London Borough of Lewisham (2220837736, 13 December 2022)
Commercial Plant Services Ltd v London Borough of Lambeth (2230127577, 15 March 2023)
Maurice Luftig v London Borough of Hackney (2230151491, 15 April 2023)
Robert Greens v London Borough of Lewisham (2230366024, 11 September 2023)

Thank you for your help!
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: Hippocrates on September 02, 2024, 09:31:31 pm
Quote from: sideadder on September 02, 2024, 09:14:32 pm
Today I received a PCN for this same offence - letter looks the same to the original post.

Given the successful outcome for ashirusnw and cp8759, is there any advice you can give for what to write to Barnet in terms of representations?

Thanks in advance
Yes. Please start your own thread.
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: sideadder on September 02, 2024, 09:14:32 pm
Today I received a PCN for this same offence - letter looks the same to the original post.

Given the successful outcome for ashirusnw and cp8759, is there any advice you can give for what to write to Barnet in terms of representations?

Thanks in advance

Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: Hippocrates on February 13, 2024, 10:47:56 am
Quote from: DH on February 13, 2024, 09:04:37 am
I didn't think we had grounds for appeal at the time, only asked the question when I saw this thread...

Complain to the Council Leader.    cllr.b.rawlings@barnet.gov.uk
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: Incandescent on February 13, 2024, 09:11:12 am
Quote from: DH on February 13, 2024, 09:04:37 am
I didn't think we had grounds for appeal at the time, only asked the question when I saw this thread...
OK, so bookmark this site for the future.
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: DH on February 13, 2024, 09:04:37 am
I didn't think we had grounds for appeal at the time, only asked the question when I saw this thread...
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: Incandescent on February 12, 2024, 10:40:49 pm
Quote from: DH on February 12, 2024, 07:43:22 pm
My wife was fined a few months ago for the left turn onto Tilling Road and we paid the fine. Is it too late to challenge this, as Barnet says you cannot appeal once you’ve paid…?
Too late.
Why didn't you appeal at the time ?
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: DH on February 12, 2024, 07:43:22 pm
My wife was fined a few months ago for the left turn onto Tilling Road and we paid the fine. Is it too late to challenge this, as Barnet says you cannot appeal once you’ve paid…?
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: Hippocrates on February 08, 2024, 04:24:04 am
Yet another incredulous situation.  Well done.
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: cp8759 on February 07, 2024, 03:04:07 pm
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UEoaFM5zlMcWqDcrYp6YeUap2EfkGeJC/view).
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ashirusnw on October 24, 2023, 09:37:20 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on October 20, 2023, 11:39:05 pm
Quote from: ashirusnw on October 20, 2023, 01:44:22 am
The 2008 order does include roads in Barnet on pages 5-8 but incorrectly under the heading of "GLA Roads in London Borough of Barking & Dagenham" which is given twice ! (probably drafted with wrong/duplicated heading because Barnet following Barking next in alphabetical order)
So it does!

I think this is the relevant entry (my bold):

NORTH CIRCULAR ROAD (A406) OFF SLIP ROAD, the south side from a point 3 metres south-west of the extended north easternmost building line of Garden Court Hotel, Tilling Road to its roundabout junction with the unnamed M1 Motorway slip roads

So we don't have to worry about the end of red route sign being on the boundary or anything of that sort, because all of Tilling Road is a GLA road. This being the case, the borough cannot enforce without the prior written consent of Transport for London (which they won't have because they won't have bothered reading the legislation).

Here are a few cases won on this point:

William Samuel v London Borough of Lewisham (2220837736, 13 December 2022) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1rkXPKBwfCqBNvhczMr1Z9CV7VT3X0kDi)
Commercial Plant Services Ltd v London Borough of Lambeth (2230127577, 15 March 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1i863mRDrHLpxZ672f2gLm5LpVT-6w3C0)
Maurice Luftig v London Borough of Hackney (2230151491, 15 April 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1o5ghOppdi_QJGhdzeZB-Dyt3wZAln6sX)
Robert Greens v London Borough of Lewisham (2230366024, 11 September 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1DKQOAaxhL8UBqZ3J1cOIjBSX_GdJkKiQ)

Let us know when you get the rejection and I'll sort out the appeal for you. The outcome cannot guaranteed, but what I can tell you is that this argument has never lost.

Thank you so much, I'll keep you posted
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: cp8759 on October 20, 2023, 11:39:05 pm
Quote from: ashirusnw on October 20, 2023, 01:44:22 am
The 2008 order does include roads in Barnet on pages 5-8 but incorrectly under the heading of "GLA Roads in London Borough of Barking & Dagenham" which is given twice ! (probably drafted with wrong/duplicated heading because Barnet following Barking next in alphabetical order)
So it does!

I think this is the relevant entry (my bold):

NORTH CIRCULAR ROAD (A406) OFF SLIP ROAD, the south side from a point 3 metres south-west of the extended north easternmost building line of Garden Court Hotel, Tilling Road to its roundabout junction with the unnamed M1 Motorway slip roads

So we don't have to worry about the end of red route sign being on the boundary or anything of that sort, because all of Tilling Road is a GLA road. This being the case, the borough cannot enforce without the prior written consent of Transport for London (which they won't have because they won't have bothered reading the legislation).

Here are a few cases won on this point:

William Samuel v London Borough of Lewisham (2220837736, 13 December 2022) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1rkXPKBwfCqBNvhczMr1Z9CV7VT3X0kDi)
Commercial Plant Services Ltd v London Borough of Lambeth (2230127577, 15 March 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1i863mRDrHLpxZ672f2gLm5LpVT-6w3C0)
Maurice Luftig v London Borough of Hackney (2230151491, 15 April 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1o5ghOppdi_QJGhdzeZB-Dyt3wZAln6sX)
Robert Greens v London Borough of Lewisham (2230366024, 11 September 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1DKQOAaxhL8UBqZ3J1cOIjBSX_GdJkKiQ)

Let us know when you get the rejection and I'll sort out the appeal for you. The outcome cannot guaranteed, but what I can tell you is that this argument has never lost.
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ashirusnw on October 20, 2023, 01:44:22 am
The 2008 order does include roads in Barnet on pages 5-8 but incorrectly under the heading of "GLA Roads in London Borough of Barking & Dagenham" which is given twice ! (probably drafted with wrong/duplicated heading because Barnet following Barking next in alphabetical order)
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: cp8759 on October 20, 2023, 12:13:52 am
None of the documents you have found are relevant, but well done for trying.

Firstly ownership of the land is irrelevant

The Side Roads Order reals with, well, side roads. We're looking for the principal order, which originally was The GLA Roads Designation Order 2000 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/1117/contents/made)
as amended by The GLA Roads Designation (Amendment) Order 2000 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/1230/contents/made) and The Greater London Authority (Miscellaneous Amendments) Order 2001 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/2620/contents/made).

However these have almost certainly all been replaced many times over, the principal order for most boroughs is The GLA Roads (No.3) Designation Order 2008 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1dmzc0AJXf0tw_JL5aRpLNt5nO-dbq-St) which abolishes The GLA Roads (No.2) Designation Order 2007, but does not designate any roads within Barnet as far as I can see.

It follows that there must be a separate order covering Barnet, which is what we're now waiting for.

The fact that appeals have been lost at London Tribunals is irrelevant, I cannot imagine anyone has previously take this point, and the adjudicator can only allow an appeal based on the issues raised by the appellant. An adjudicator cannot go digging for issues to help one party or the other, or else they'd hardly be independent.
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ashirusnw on October 18, 2023, 01:14:19 pm
And finally (dunno if relevant):

(https://i.imgur.com/bpXIAgK.png)
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ashirusnw on October 18, 2023, 12:54:29 pm
Atually, I found this this tool https://tfl.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=5129c766255941d3be16a6828faa8f18 which seems to show that TfL owns the freehold for Tilling Road and in fact part of Brentfield Gardens, which is odd as Barnet enforce parking on BrentField Gardens too.

Would this info help me?

Screenshot:
(https://i.imgur.com/LkIWODT.png)
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ashirusnw on October 18, 2023, 12:43:05 pm
(I couldn't find any info on the exact boundaries of the A41/A406 in terms of who owns what land)
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ashirusnw on October 18, 2023, 12:41:20 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on October 13, 2023, 06:57:10 pm
One obvious issue to investigate is the exact boundary of the GLA road with the borough road, if the sign is the wrong side of the boundary then arguably the council cannot enforce without TFL's prior written consent, so I will check the designation orders.

You're an absolute genius for thinking of this possible way out, but it seems unlikely given that this prohibited turn at this particular junction has had numerous failed appeals at Tribunal and apparently is a cash-cow for Barnet!

Is this https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/1257/schedule/made the designation order you're referring to? It doesn't list Tilling Road unfortunately and in general appears to cover only the sections of Borough Road that actually cross a GLA road whereas here, Tilling Road is a few 10s of yards off a ramp serving the A41/A406 ...
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ashirusnw on October 18, 2023, 12:35:32 pm
So I sat down this morning to submit a representation and found the penalty had jumped up today to 100%/£130 shame I didn't submit last night  >:(

Regardless I have made a submission explaining the payment error and that I was waiting for a reply to that, and then the following quasi-appeal:

Quote
This junction on Tilling Road is just after an exit from the very busy A406 and the frequently-busy ramp and the "no left turn" is one of at least 12 signs that a motorist has to read when entering this extremely short section of road, see attached Google Street View photo.

This particular turning restricted is noted by Barnet to often tripped-up motorists see https://www.barnet.gov.uk/parking/parking-and-traffic-enforcement/cctv-traffic-enforcement/traffic-hotspot-examples at the bottom of page where Barnet Council write "Currently far too many drivers are attempting a banned left turn from Tilling Road into Brentfield Gardens, raising the risk of serious accident. We want to ensure the road here is safer for cars, for pedestrians and for the residents of Brentfield Gardens." It has previously been reported in the press that this junction and prohibited turn nets the council a large percentage of its total PCN penelty revenue.

I appreciate that the sign may neverltheless be legal, however please use your discretion to treat this as an appeal and cancel this PCN, or otherwise, if rejected, please offer me the discounted rate given that I intended and tried to pay the PCN as outlined above.

Let's see ...!
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: cp8759 on October 17, 2023, 06:34:09 pm
If you want to carry on you need to make a representation in order to protect your position. I suggest you post a draft on here in the first instance, it doesn't have to be particularly compelling as its main purpose is to buy time. On the other hand we want to be reasonably conciliatory as we want to make sure the discount is extended further by the rejection letter.
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ashirusnw on October 16, 2023, 10:24:59 pm
no I have not yet made a representation. the discount might have been extended because I tried to pay this just before the deadline but made an error with the payment which I reported, so it's not paid but perhaps in limbo pending their reply about the payment issue. I believe I can still make representations
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: cp8759 on October 16, 2023, 09:44:08 pm
Have you made a representation, and if so have you received a rejection?

It looks like the discount has been extended?
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ashirusnw on October 16, 2023, 07:04:55 pm
And apparently has always been cash cow for the council probably due to the amount of signs and because it's so soon after coming off the busy A406.

See e.g. https://www.barnet.gov.uk/parking/parking-and-traffic-enforcement/cctv-traffic-enforcement/traffic-hotspot-examples (bottom of page)
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ashirusnw on October 16, 2023, 06:49:36 pm
Interestingy this local news article from 2017 shows that people have always been tripped up by this junction https://www.times-series.co.uk/news/15676382.barnet-council-earns-17m-at-tilling-road-junction-over-one-year/
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ashirusnw on October 14, 2023, 11:17:51 pm
unbinned thanks so much
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: cp8759 on October 13, 2023, 06:57:10 pm
@ashirusnw please un-bin the video so that I can take a look, and also give us the PCN number and number plate.

One obvious issue to investigate is the exact boundary of the GLA road with the borough road, if the sign is the wrong side of the boundary then arguably the council cannot enforce without TFL's prior written consent, so I will check the designation orders.
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: Incandescent on October 11, 2023, 11:12:48 pm
The video shows you totally bang-to-rights, I can't see anything that might contradict this opinion. Two clear 'No Left Turn' signs with nothing in the way of them to prevent you seeing them.

Of course there may be a fatal error of content in the PCN or the traffic order may be out-of-date. If there is something, you'd inevitably have to take them to London Tribunals for an unbiased decision. This means the discount option wouuld be lost.
Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ashirusnw on October 11, 2023, 07:50:45 pm
Here's the vid

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P7IFttN5f5rC1rZT3vCnfkz2TbULtGLF/view

Title: Re: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: Incandescent on October 11, 2023, 07:10:19 pm
They may also have the video available on their website, so follow the instructions to view evidence. Download it and post it here if there is. However from what you say, you would seem ot be bang-to-rights.
Title: PCN for illegal left turn
Post by: ashirusnw on October 11, 2023, 03:29:35 pm
Hi I think I'm caught bang to rights here but hoping one of you pros can spot a flaw in the PCN!

And here's the PCN:

(https://i.imgur.com/2BG461v.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IZkWZGO.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/QLfzjRK.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ctCA6ry.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/4rCWVE1.jpg)

Street view of the turning: https://maps.app.goo.gl/DyxQun1ikcZeXQJq8

Many thanks