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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Savas on October 11, 2023, 12:50:25 am

Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Hippocrates on November 26, 2023, 12:19:45 pm
Riddled with fettering of discretion.
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: mrmustard on November 26, 2023, 11:35:14 am
Haringey are routinely slow and mark their files forward by 2 months. If you get rejected and receive a Notice to Owner I have a Pcn wording error we can use. Email me later on with a copy of the Notice to Owner. mrmustard@zoho.com
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: cp8759 on November 25, 2023, 07:09:05 pm
Ultimately no outcome at the tribunal can be guaranteed, there is always an element of risk. The merits of going to the tribunal can be better evaluated at the notice of rejection stage, but often the full picture emerges only after the appeal has been filed, because you only get to see any flaws in the council's case when they file their evidence pack.

They don't prepare evidence packs "just in case", they only compile them after get the a notice of appeal from the tribunal.
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Savas on November 25, 2023, 05:07:26 pm
That makes a lot of sense, thanks for clarifying.

I guess I'm wondering whether there's any strength to going to London Tribunals if they did not offer the discount (worse case scenario)? I am not really about to make things worse for him. Is there any strength in this kind of circumstances at London tribunals? The councils mitigating circumstances does not contain this, however being merciful is kind of the point of informal challenges, I thought. Also it's a busy road and turning into that road, that sign seems quite overloaded, with oncoming traffic you really don't have a lot of time to read it all, while looking out for any pedestrians and other vehicles.

Also, I completely forgot to edit my previous post, but there was an error, I can't change it now, although I'm sure most knows anyway, but for clarification they're supposed to send out the notice to owner after 28 days, so that would be after the 6th, not before. I guess it makes sense to offer the discount, unless they got their pack ready already with this.
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Incandescent on November 24, 2023, 07:27:56 pm
Whilst the councils know that rejecting all informal challenges rakes in the money, as CP8759 eloquently describes, they are also aware that if they don't offer the discount again when rejecting formal reps that for the appellant, it then becomes a no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals. This is because the penalty does not increase, and there are no additional costs for the appellant.  However there are costs for the council because they must prepare an evidence pack, which costs money. So most London councils re-offer the discount.
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Savas on November 24, 2023, 04:45:54 pm
As long as the notice to owner is challenged within 14 days of the date of issue, if the council rejects again they normally extend the discount for a further 14 days, so there is limited risk in carrying on.

Normally? Is that something the council can feel free to do or not, how does that work?

Guidance on challenging a penalty charge notice | Haringey Council
https://www.haringey.gov.uk/parking-roads-and-travel/parking/penalty-charge-notice-pcn/challenge-penalty-charge-notice/guidance-challenging-penalty-charge-notice

Says "The formal process of disputing a PCN commences on receipt of a Notice to Owner, which will be sent to the owner of the vehicle not less than 28 days after the PCN was served."

I can see they've given till the 5th dec before the discount runs out, they're supposed to send out the notice to owner out after the 6th dec, so they could send it out after the 6th and I guess they wouldn't allow for the discount? I think if the discount is up to them, then really not really expecting it.

Sorry, the above uploaded links broke.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Lgh39J84/Whats-App-Image-2023-11-17-at-17-35-14-3457a8f7-redacted.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Lgh39J84)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2q7HfFjG/Whats-App-Image-2023-11-17-at-17-47-03-92964997.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2q7HfFjG)
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: cp8759 on November 19, 2023, 03:58:37 pm
Finally got a respond, unfortunately they've rejected the informal challenge. Very heartless in my opinion, a little surprised too. Anyway, what options are there now? I guess if nothing strong to go by, paying the discounted and being done with this is only choice.
No, that's not how this works. Virtually all informal representations are rejected, because the council knows that 99% of people will just pay, and obviously the council gets to keep the money for itself.

Instead you should wait for the notice to owner, post it up on here as soon as you get it, and we can look at making some proper representations. At the notice to owner stage things tend to get looked up in a bit more depth.

As long as the notice to owner is challenged within 14 days of the date of issue, if the council rejects again they normally extend the discount for a further 14 days, so there is limited risk in carrying on.
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Savas on November 17, 2023, 07:56:27 pm
Finally got a respond, unfortunately they've rejected the informal challenge. Very heartless in my opinion, a little surprised too. Anyway, what options are there now? I guess if nothing strong to go by, paying the discounted and being done with this is only choice.

(https://i.postimg.cc/R6CgC6NB/Whats-App-Image-2023-11-17-at-17-35-14-3457a8f7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R6CgC6NB)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2q7HfFjG/Whats-App-Image-2023-11-17-at-17-47-03-92964997.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2q7HfFjG)
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Incandescent on November 13, 2023, 05:43:30 pm
There is no limit on responding to informal challenges, but usually anything over 3 months is frowned-upon by the adjudicators.  There is also a limit of 6 month to serve the Notice to Owner, and statutory guidance says if this sort of time is taken, they must have a very good reason.
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Savas on November 13, 2023, 04:15:05 pm
Apologies to bump. Can someone explain how this works. It's been about 3 weeks since making an informal challenge and no response. How long do they have?
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Savas on November 06, 2023, 01:54:27 pm
No response as of yet...

What usually happens? I presume a response comes via email and also by post right? Is there anything he should watch out for? I've asked if he received any emails and he has not, nor any post.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: cp8759 on October 21, 2023, 07:27:40 pm
I meant in the sense that if there's nothing wrong with it or further to add or adjust in the writing.
Well if he's already sent it it's a bit late to add anything. At the notice to owner stage, we can look at this again.
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Savas on October 21, 2023, 03:29:38 pm
Not yet did the informal challenge, should he proceed and I guess cut out the assumption the sign was not there?
Not sure what you mean by "should he proceed", if he's make an informal challenge all he can do is wait for the response.

Of course the other question is whether that sign was adequate, which of course is debatable.

I meant in the sense that if there's nothing wrong with it or further to add or adjust in the writing.

It is kind of small, yes.

Here's what was sent.

Quote
Hello, I do not live in the area and did not fully understand event days, as it was a Sunday after parking and attending a local community centre near by I asked whether there was a football match which I was informed the local team was not playing so I assumed there was no event. Unfortunately there was an "NFL" match instead of a normal football match, hence the misinformation and confusion.

My father has recently passed away and the purpose of my visit was to attend a community centre to meet people coming to pay their condolences for me and my family. My father attended this community centre and we organized to meet here which was planned in haste.

I have been informed that there is usually a sign upon entry indicating if there is an event however I unfortunately missed this sign due to my haste and was unaware where to look for event day information. I would kindly request mitigating the situation and your understanding in this time of bereaving our father, as it was completely unexpected.

Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: cp8759 on October 21, 2023, 02:47:16 pm
Not yet did the informal challenge, should he proceed and I guess cut out the assumption the sign was not there?
Not sure what you mean by "should he proceed", if he's make an informal challenge all he can do is wait for the response.

Of course the other question is whether that sign was adequate, which of course is debatable.
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Savas on October 20, 2023, 01:39:57 pm
Not yet did the informal challenge, should he proceed and I guess cut out the assumption the sign was not there?
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: cp8759 on October 19, 2023, 05:14:21 pm
Response from the council:

Please find attached photos that show the dates 8,15,23 Oct displayed on the 1st October 2023 and current photo of the sign with the dates still attached taken today 19th October 2023

(https://i.imgur.com/Llm1aOX.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/YxtOQfG.jpg)


Has you friend heard back?
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Incandescent on October 18, 2023, 11:40:22 pm
Looks OK to me, but do be aware that heads of council parking departments are chosen on the hardness of their hearts. Granite is the favoured material. (OK only joking !).  Hope you succeed !!
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Savas on October 18, 2023, 09:10:04 pm
It could take until 6 November for me to get the photos from the council, so in the meantime it's worth putting something in even if just to preserve the discount.

What compassionate grounds did you have in mind? Please put a draft of what you want to send on here for review.

Thanks. I'll help him make an informal challenge in a day or two. I wanted to write something up stating he did not see the sign while entering and the visit was related to bereaving his recent loss of his father (he was visiting a community centre to meet people who came to give their condolences).

Here is what I have so far, Please can you let me know if there is any errors or if you can improve:

Quote
Hello, I do not live in the area and did not fully understand event days, as it was a Sunday, after parking and attending a local community centre near by I asked whether there was a football match which I was informed the local team was not playing so I assumed there was no event. Unfortunately there was an "NFL" match instead of a normal football match, hence the misinformation and confusion.

I have been informed that there is usually a sign upon entry indicating if there is an event however I did not see this sign and believe this sign was not present.

The purpose of my visit was to meet people coming to pay their condolences to me and my family for our recent loss of our father. My father attended this community centre and we organized to meet here, which was planned in haste. I would kindly like to ask your understanding in this time of bereaving our father, the unexpected circumstances and mitigating the situation.
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: cp8759 on October 14, 2023, 11:52:22 am
It could take until 6 November for me to get the photos from the council, so in the meantime it's worth putting something in even if just to preserve the discount.

What compassionate grounds did you have in mind? Please put a draft of what you want to send on here for review.
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Savas on October 13, 2023, 05:41:54 pm
Please give us the number plate and PCN number so that we can do some basic checks. In the meantime I'll find out if the council can prove what sign was displayed at the location identified by Incandescent.

Hi, sorry for the late reply. PCN is ZN09554826, REG: EK54WCD

I spoke to the driver, and he's unsure if such a sign was there. I guess if nothing is possible I can informally challenge on the basis of compassion due to the circumstances of the driver.
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: cp8759 on October 12, 2023, 12:09:29 am
Please give us the number plate and PCN number so that we can do some basic checks. In the meantime I'll find out if the council can prove what sign was displayed at the location identified by Incandescent.
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Incandescent on October 11, 2023, 01:30:02 am
Access to Rycroft Way is via Chesnut Road (no middle 't' !) : -
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5910871,-0.069554,3a,16.8y,81.95h,95.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBHjrvhN8Fti33iSrI3EmvA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu
Note the large sign with the parking restrictions and also, at the bottom, when the next event is. There is no other motor vehicle access to Rycroft Way, it is all one-way streets.

So unless that sign did not have the date of the next event, your friend looks bang-to-rights.
Title: Re: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Savas on October 11, 2023, 01:01:38 am
As well as the sign shown, there should be signs at all entrances to the Events Zone giving the date of the next event. So if your friend can give us his route to the location we'll have a look.  He could submit reps stating that he never say any sign for the date of the next event.  They'll have to prove they did if it gets to adjudication.

I've asked him and as per this map (https://www.haringey.gov.uk/parking-roads-and-travel/parking/controlled-parking-zones-cpzs/tottenham-event-day-cpz/tottenham-event-day-cpz-map), he entered from south Tottenham, high road.
Title: Rycroft Way, HALE (TH) CPZ
Post by: Savas on October 11, 2023, 12:50:25 am
Hello, this is a repost from the old forms, can someone please advice on this PCN.

There is a football stadium near by (about 1mile), sign says event days parking times are different. It was a Sunday and driver doesn't live in the area so checked if there were any games for the local team, assumed not, but actually there was an event (NFL game) so hence the error. I am not the driver, but offered to help (driver has lost his father recently and hence visit was to a community centre near by). Is there anything that can be done as was a genuine mistake.

Ticket:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Ssv7tk3V/screenshot-2023-10-09-143352.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/yx3hM2zK/screenshot-2023-10-09-143400.png)

PCN Online images:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJm87F9m/screenshot-2023-10-09-143858.png)

Signage:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBT9wph1/screenshot-2023-10-09-143951.png)

Some relevant links:

Rycroft Way - Google Maps
https://maps.app.goo.gl/5E5ssLkHR8WdA3wn9

Tottenham Event Day CPZ | Haringey Council
https://www.haringey.gov.uk/parking-roads-and-travel/parking/controlled-parking-zones-cpzs/tottenham-event-day-cpz

Local | New Stadium | Tottenham Hotspur
https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/the-stadium/local/