Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: MELBE on June 12, 2025, 06:44:50 pm
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The NOR fails to inform you correctly of:
Your statutory rights of appeal;
The adjudicator's power to register an appeal made late i.e. after the statutory period;
The council's power to serve a Charge Certificate.
Unfortunately, procedural impropriety is not grounds of appeal.
For the more experienced posters: would the cumulative effect of the above justify the risk of appealing on the grounds of 'penalty exceeded....circumstances of the case' with the circumstances effectively bringing a collateral challenge?
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maybe is to risky, I think I do not have many other options as to pay £80, sadly
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The letter is dated 11/07 that makes tomorrow the last day to pay. I thought I would have chance to win. Do you think other gurus will come with different ideas to go tribunal, e.g. camera last proof check for accuracy or the person who check the recordings or other ideas that maybe still a chance. £80 is really heavy.
Any of the above would involve an appeal at London Tribunals, with the full £160 in play.
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The OP should put much more weight on MrMustard's opinion than my own given his extensive tribunal experience.
But in my opinion there are two stationary vehicles involved in the circumstances of the stop.
1) The motorcycle - this is directly responsible for the stop but enters the box junction after (or just as) the OP enters the box. On that basis it would be unreasonable to penalise the OP for this as it should not have entered and the OP shouldn't be expected to predict that it would.
2) The red car which turns out of the side road - due to the actions of the motorcycle, we do not have the luxury of knowing how the OP would have traversed the box and therefore whether the OP would have had to stop due to this stationary vehicle. All we can do it establish distance between the OP and the vehicle and the speed of travel to deduce on balance of probabilities if the OP would have "had to stop". As stated earlier, the box length is 10.2 metres (as per googlemaps distance measurer). The time between entry to the box and the red car moving off is 8 seconds (to the nearest second). Travelling across the box at leisurely walking speed (2.5 miles per hour) would mean the red car had moved off by the time the OP reached the other side. That speed doesn't seem inconsistent with the speed upon entry and across the first portion of the box prior to stopping. On that basis the OP did not cause their vehicle to enter such that they (would have) had to stop due to the presence of the red vehicle.
Or am I being too logical?
The letter is dated 11 July but it gives you 14 days from date of service (assumed to be 15 July - 2 business days after posting). Most PCN related deadlines include the day of posting/service as part of the time period so to be safe treat the deadline as 28 July rather than 29 July).
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The letter is dated 11/07 that makes tomorrow the last day to pay. I thought I would have chance to win. Do you think other gurus will come with different ideas to go tribunal, e.g. camera last proof check for accuracy or the person who check the recordings or other ideas that maybe still a chance. £80 is really heavy.
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Looking at the position as you entered (as if everything was stationary) which the adjudicator probably will (as I did a yellow box case with an adjudicator yesterday who kept slowly rolling through the same few seconds to be sure of his opinion and an actual stop) I don't think you stand any chance of winning at the tribunal. You were never going to clear the box. 50% off and learn from this. If in doubt, stuff the traffic behind, I'm stopping at the edge of the box until my exit is guaranteed.
(https://i.ibb.co/9HPChHsL/learner.png) (https://ibb.co/xqZRYqJ0)
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Not unexpected rejection from Croydon.
They have reoffered the discount if you pay by 28 July (14 days beginning with date of service which is deemed to be 15 July).
Saying they are unable to cancel the PCN is technically fettering their discretion. They also say on page 2 that if you pay the discounted PCN you will have lost the right to appeal to the tribunal. I'm pretty sure that's incorrect (or at least I recall Mr Mustard saying that so long as you receive a notice of rejection you can still appeal even after paying the discount). I do not know how much (if at all) these points would add weight to your case as technical arguments.
On the video itself it's a tricky one to say what your odds of success would be. The rejection letter tells you at point of entry you need to ensure you can cross without stopping. Well, that was precisely your argument, that you could have crossed without stopping going at the speed you were going - but for a motorcycle coming from the side when you had not given way and forcing you to stop after (or simultaneous with) your entry into the box.
See what others think - personally I'd probably try and take this to the tribunal as I think there is at least a 50% chance of success, but it will also depend on how risk averse you are and how much you (or your father!) can afford to risk the extra £80.
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"I am unable to cancel the PCN on this occasion" - what happened - did they suffer a terminal lack of discretion on this occasion?
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hi everyone,
Bad news :( :( :(
[attachment deleted by admin]
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When and how did you submit your reps?
The statutory discount period is as has been posted. The council may at their discretion extend the discount e.g. if reps are submitted within the statutory period etc.
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I'm confused. The 14 days end of period of my pcn never spired and I'm still allowed to pay the reduced amount of £80.
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Come back with the rejection notice!
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thank you ever soooo much
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22 y old female
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Sorry this has come through so late. Don't worry too much about the contents as Croydon will reject it anyway. Key thing is to submit before midnight tonight.
Make sure it's sent as if from your father.
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Draft for (brief) consideration and submission. I wasn't sure if you are male or female so please correct the various references to he/her and son/daughter as applicable before submission.
Edit - I've updated the male/female references following your confirmation
Dear Croydon,
Re PCN CR22642605
I would like to submit representations against this PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.
First and foremost, I should state that while I am the owner and registered keeper of this vehicle, I was not the driver at the time this contravention is alleged to have occurred. As I was not present I have mostly had to rely on the video evidence provided to formulate this response. The driver was my daughter who only recently passed her driving test and is thus a relatively inexperienced motorist.
A box junction contravention occurs if (and only if) a person causes a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. The inclusion of the words "has to" is important and means that merely stopping in a box junction isn't necessarily a contravention; rather the stop has to have been necessary in the context of the traffic conditions at the time and the manner in which the vehicle entered the box junction. Having reviewed the video evidence, I do not believe such a contravention has occurred.
What can be seen in the footage is that the vehicle slows to a crawl on its approach to the box junction. As the exit road was not clear, best practice would have been for the driver to stop at the entrance to the box junction (and I have reminded my daughter about this). Instead she entered at this very slow pace which, possibly by luck more than judgement, if maintained would have been sufficiently slow that she would have been able to cross without having to stop in the box junction because the red vehicle on the other side moves on only a few seconds afterwards. The box junction length is 10.2 metres and the time between entry and the red car moving off is 8 seconds. As such an average speed while passing through the box junction of just under 3 miles per hour (i.e. walking pace) would have meant no stop was necessary.
Unfortunately, in spite of my vehicle having the right of way, just as it entered the box junction a motorcycle waiting in the side road moved out forcing my vehicle to stop. The motorcycle was legally obliged to give way to my vehicle and consequently stopping in this circumstance is no fault of the driver of my vehicle. Once the motorcycle cleared the junction, unfortunately my daughter stalled the car causing a delay to leaving the box junction, but as the contravention is effectively a test of judgement at the point of entry, and by this time the exit is completely clear, this is of no consequence.
On this basis, I trust you will agree that there has been no technical breach of the box junction rules and cancel the PCN.
Yours faithfully,
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Ok
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Had to take son to cricket training. Will have something for you in the next hour...
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I would focus on the incursion of vehicles from the left.
As a learner driver I was driving cautiously, including leaving an extended gap between myself and the car ahead. When that car approached and exited the junction it was clear that it would leave sufficient room for me to enter and exit without issue. Unfortunately, two vehicles came from the left, the first one a car which took my exit space, although still in motion, and next came a GIG motorcyclist which caused me to stop. I submit that both were required to cede priority to me by virtue of the road markings at this junction*, something which is hammered home to me by my instructor.
I find it hard to understand that the law is holding me liable for the unlawful actions of other motorists.
* - Give way marking
7. The requirements conveyed to vehicular traffic on roads by a road marking provided for at item 3 of the sign table in Part 6 of this Schedule [which applies to traffic in the side road] are—
(a)except as provided in paragraphs (b) to (d), that no vehicle may proceed past the transverse line which is the nearer to the major road into that road in a manner or at a time likely to endanger the driver of, or any passenger in, a vehicle on the major road or to cause the driver of such a vehicle to change its speed or course in order to avoid an accident;
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Yep I’ll definitely submit this evening, thanks mr chips
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Hi - thanks for the prompt. Too many things going on and I lost track of time!
I'll draft something asap. Are you available this evening to submit? I'll draft as if from your father.
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I'm happy to draft something for you along the lines of my previous post. Might be a few days though but won't miss the deadline.
Please help me as deadline is today
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hi mr chips,
according to the pcn the owner is responsible in first instance, hence my father will be the one making the representations. He agrees to help
Could you please kindly help me, thank you
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Good that you mentioned this.
Either the representations need to be sent by your father (or by you but in his name with his blessing) or else by you with a separate confirmation of his approval.
Which option does he prefer?
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hello again,
thank you to all of you for your comments and expertise. by reading the pcn over again I realise a sentence under DO NOT IGNORE THIS NOTICE
>>>IF YOU WERE NOT THE DRIVER AT THE MATERIAL TIME, DO NOT PASS THIS PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE TO THE PERSON WHO WAS IN CONTROL OF THE VEHICLE AT THE TIME THE ALLEGED CONTRAVENTION OCCURRED...>>>
and guess what, the pcn came on my fathers name as he owns the vehicle, although the insurance is under my name as my father barely touch this car (only for mechanical reasons, lol) and yep I was :'( the driver as the incident occurred.
the good thing is that still is time to mend anything or to follow the steps needed
please advise
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Give way marking
7. The requirements conveyed to vehicular traffic on roads by a road marking provided for at item 3 of the sign table in Part 6 of this Schedule [which applies to traffic in the side road] are—
(a)except as provided in paragraphs (b) to (d), that no vehicle may proceed past the transverse line which is the nearer to the major road into that road in a manner or at a time likely to endanger the driver of, or any passenger in, a vehicle on the major road or to cause the driver of such a vehicle to change its speed or course in order to avoid an accident;
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9
IMO, you entered and stopped due to the presence of vehicles which were breaking the law!
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I think your best bet is a more or less what you did, first a polite ask as new driver for a first time, plus notes that the contravention may not have occurred according to a strict reading of the situation.
You were positioned to wait at the edge of the box so it can't really be agued this was out of your control.
Go with Mr Chips.
(https://i.ibb.co/h1mjZQWY/Get-Video1-ezgif-com-video-to-gif-converter.gif)
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I'm happy to draft something for you along the lines of my previous post. Might be a few days though but won't miss the deadline.
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However see what the others say.
Are here any others... ;D
I suppose is only you willing to help though. Could you please help me to put the right paragraph together or should I wait another week. Deadline is on the 24th
Best regards
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Hi Melbe, thanks for the PM.
So, I agree with Incandescent's summary. Your best (only?) defence against the contravention itself is to justify that you entered the box travelling at a low enough speed that you would realistically have had a clear exit by the time you got to the other side. But that the motorcyclist then didn't give way to you and entered the box in front of you after you had entered it, forcing you to stop. You then stay in the box for an extended time due to stalling (but this is a bit of a red herring as once the red car moves off you are no longer in contravention and can stay in the box as long as you like!).
I've undertaken some measurements which do support this line of argument. The box is just over 10 metres long (about 10.2 metres). The period between you entering and the red car moving off is 8 seconds. So, you could have crossed at an average speed of just under 1.3 metres per second (2.85 miles per hour, i.e. walking pace).
At the point you actually stop, you had travelled 4 metres into the box, in slightly over 3 seconds, which is consistent with this speed.
You would have had to cover the remaining 6 metres in no more than 5 seconds (1.2 metres per second), which is definitely doable and consistent with your average speed up to the point you stopped.
So, you can put together a coherent defence that by continuing across at broadly the same average speed you were travelling (until forced to stop by the motorcyclist who did not give way to you as obliged to do) you would have had a clear exit by the time you reached the other side. You can support this with accurate measurements. You may also reference your recent qualifying status which contributed to you not predicting the likely actions of the motorcyclist who would have seen you slowing down and acted on this.
However, Croydon will reject this (they want your money, and - like all councils - are staffed by people who don't understand the law and think any stop = contravention). I don't know if they are a council who reoffer the discount at this point or not. Your choice will then either be to pay up or take it to the tribunal where you have a chance of winning (I don't know what chance).
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Sorry, narrativa made by chat gpt. Maybe not that accurate. Thank you for your help. Fact was I didn’t know what I was doing or what to do
Oh dear ! Never use ChatGPT to write any appeal for parking or traffic contraventions. We've already seen people fail using it. They then come on here when rejected.
Your strongest point is probably the scooter coming across just after you entered the box. You can claim this was unexpected as you were on the main road, not him. There is nothing unlawful in tootling across a YBJ where the traffi ahead has stoppedm hoping it'll move on, but the scooter stopped you doing this.
However, you'll have to stand your ground and take them to London Tribunals for a result the council will not give way, they love the money too much.
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Sorry, narrativa made by chat gpt. Maybe not that accurate. Thank you for your help. Fact was I didn’t know what I was doing or what to do
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Sorry but the video doesn't seem to exactly match your narrative. The start of the video shows a red car very slowly moving out of the side road to turn left. The traffic dodges round him. At 0.05 you approach and slow down, but at 0.07 you enter the box and continue driving into the box. At the same time the scooter rider moves out into the box and stops there blocking you from moving forward. However, even if he had not, the red vehicle has stopped leaving you with no exit space. The scooter rider moves off with you stopped in the box, and the traffic ahead starts moving leaving you stopped for a short time in the box. This will be when you stalled I suppose.
It's a difficult call, but I suppose you could claim that the scooter rider rode out after you had entered the box, thus forcing you to stop. I think the fact that there was no exit available for you is irrelevant, because without the scooter movement, you could have "tootled" slowly in the box until the traffic moved on.
However see what the others say.
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My very 1st PCN arrived today ;D ;D ;D
Do you think guys I can walk free from this? please kindly help me
I would like to respectfully explain the circumstances leading to the brief moment when my vehicle came to a stop on the yellow box junction. As shown in the CCTV footage, my car was displaying an ‘L’ plate, as I am a recently qualified driver and still building confidence and experience on the road.
On the day in question, traffic ahead of me appeared to be flowing steadily, and I entered the junction in good faith, believing there was sufficient space on the far side for my vehicle to clear it without stopping. However, due to a brief and unforeseen hesitation by a vehicle in front of me, I found myself momentarily stalled within the yellow box. I immediately took action to move forward as soon as it was safe to do so.
The CCTV footage shows that my car remained within the box for only a few seconds and, crucially, did not obstruct any cross-traffic or affect the flow of vehicles through the junction. I understand the importance of the rules regarding yellow box junctions and have taken this experience as a serious learning moment.
Given the circumstances—including my new driver status, the brief duration of the stop, and the fact that no obstruction occurred—I respectfully request that you consider exercising discretion and cancel this PCN.
Thank you for your time and understanding.
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