Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: TF on June 04, 2025, 11:30:21 am
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DNC'ed.
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@TF I've sent you a PM (https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=pm).
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I'm not surprised.
Register your appeal. Contravention did not occur; Procedural impropriety.
Once you've registered your appeal you can submit a more comprehensive argument.
...along the lines of:
On *** I parked in the parking place.
(pl, pl stop referring to it as a bay). The law as regards traffic signs refers to orders and these refer to designated parking places - 'A local authority may by order designate parking places on highways..'
As can be seen in the enclosed GSV snapshot and confirmed in the authority's photos, this parking place is situated on the south side of Falkner Street and extends for approx. 27 metres from the termination of a 'Keep Clear' prohibition outside Abercromby Nursery School to its junction with Bedford Street South. Within this relatively short distance there are no street lamp columns and no other traffic sign posts - or trees for that matter. It is therefore perhaps not surprising that the council haven't placed any 'traffic signs' (s64 RTRA refers) in or within the vicinity of the parking place. There is another parking place on the south side of Falkner Street but this is distinguished from my location by virtue of being separated by the 'Keep Clear' prohibition and a length of unrestricted street.
It therefore follows that, for the want of any traffic sign conveying a restriction at my location, a motorist would not know what restrictions might apply. In the circumstances of my case, and by implication every other PCN issued in that place, the CEO has been directed to photograph the nearest traffic sign on the opposite side of the road (as can be seen in the council's evidence where leafy trees are in evidence as they frame the traffic sign relied upon).
I was not bound by this sign, indeed I didn't register it at the time as I was focused on what restrictions applied to where I parked, not places on the other side of the road.
The authority have rejected 2 sets of representations on the fraudulent basis that the CEO's evidential photos establish the council's compliance with LATOR and therefore their right to pursue a penalty when those representations gave the clearest evidence to the contrary. Indeed, in the NOR they have compounded their lack of candour with the following statement:
'There are two signs on that road which state that it is permit parking only. A sign is not required at that[presumably my] location as there is already a sign at the other end of the road in the bay'.
Setting aside for one moment that 'that' sign is not in my parking place and that, as I now know because the NOR drew it to my attention and I have measured, it is 210 feet from where my car was parked, this is not even the sign presented in the authority's evidence.
Given the authority's attempts to justify their error and penalise me by relying upon spurious photographic evidence and specious claims, it must surely follow that whether by virtue of the regulations or their public law duty to act fairly these actions give rise to grounds of 'procedural impropriety'. I have therefore added 'Procedural Impropriety' to my statutory grounds by virtue of this comment in the authority's NOR:
I am confident that now that this evidence and the council's actions have been opened to more enlightened and impartial scrutiny the adjudicator will see the truth of the matter and cancel the PCN.
My thoughts.
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Yes , that's how I have read it, I have looked on Google maps and I think I see one right at the other end near the dead end on the same side, but this would not be visible to drivers turning onto the street as the bay I was in is at the other end of the street where that sign is, and any other signs are on the other side, nothing is on the bay I parked in
Thanks for your help
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So they claim there is a bay sign at the other end of the bay - but the picture of a sign they provided is on the other side of the road. It's not a long bay you were in and there does not appear that there has ever been a sign in the bay.
They have reoffered the discount which probably means they are trying it on - let's check all the info and if all in order I think you should appeal to the tribunal.
(https://i.ibb.co/23Cd3RtN/Screenshot-2025-07-04-at-14-05-46.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/jvx95xp3/20250704-130340.jpg)
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@cp8759
Hi, I have received a reply from liverpool council regarding my PCN parking charge, please see attached
They have rejected it.
Please advice further
Thank you
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I have now submitted it online so I will let you know what happens thanks again for all the help
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Ok, keeping it simple .
Ok, thank you for the help I will do this. :)
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I would just send this - do it online using the method specified in the note to owner.
Dear Liverpool,
the contravention did not occur as the bay I was parked in had no parking sign.
I did point out in my initial challenge that there was no sign requiring paying to park in this bay, and indeed there was no sign at all.
Please note that the picture of a sign taken by your CEO is located in a different bay in this controlled parking zone and not the one I parked in.
I trust this time you will cancel the PCN.
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@cp8759 I have written a letter regarding the above , I have attached this , I have not posted it as yet but does this sound OK? Thank you
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I have screen shot my informal complaint
It states i can supply photos, but I did actually attach them when sent
[attachment deleted by admin]
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No i didn't state that i just said there was no parking sign, I will in my formal letter.
My daughter has parked there no problem, and a traffic warden actually told my husband it was free and no permit needed as that was the other side but obviously we can not prove this.
Do I wait? as I read the rules and it said to wait 7 to 10 days for all the evidence to be gathered
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You pointed out no sign on your side which they ignored, but I expect you didn't say explicitly you were in a marked bay that had no sign - that will be the grounds for representations, plus saying the signage point wasn't addressed at first stage.
I've checked and the street is in the Liverpool outer controlled zone. They also use permit parking areas but this isn't one as there would not be signed resident bays. There doesn't seem to have been a parking sign in that bay stepping back in Maps time.
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Also this is the first letter I received after I disputed the charge
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Thank you , I have attached the otherside plus page 3 and 4
I confirm that this is addressed to me at my home address
Please let me know if I need to add anything else here
Thanks again for all the help received
[attachment deleted by admin]
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+1.
Post the PCN, both sides, your initial reps, their response and confirm the NTO is addressed to you pl.
Let's get all relevant info in play.
NTO dated 29 May therefore representations should be made no later than 29 June.(posted Thurs. 29 May, therefore deemed served Mon.2 June which is day 1 of the 28-day period).
You have plenty of time.
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Thank you for your reply
So I was right, so I just put a formal Complaint in? Am new to this and don't want to get it wrong I just can not believe the cheek of the council, they dismissed it they probably didn't even look at it correctly
You must respond to the Notice to Owner. OK, you may raise a complaint, but you must follow the process, I'm afraid, or it's game over.
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Thank you for your reply
So I was right, so I just put a formal Complaint in? Am new to this and don't want to get it wrong I just can not believe the cheek of the council, they dismissed it they probably didn't even look at it correctly
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You were in a marked parking bay and it does appear there is no parking sign in the bay. A picture of a sign in another bay won't do.
No sign = no contravention.
I think this is a controlled parking zone - they seem to have omitted a yellow line in the no stopping zone too.
(https://i.ibb.co/JRVtwrVK/Screenshot-2025-06-04-at-11-38-47.png)
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@cp8759 -, I visited my daughter and parked out side her apartment building, the road where i parked has permit holders parking only signs on the opposite side of the street where there are parking spots, the side I parked on did not have any signs apart from one that stated no stopping , mon -fri 8 AM - 5PM on entrance markings , so I made sure I was not on the yellow entrance markings, upon my return I noticed a parking charge on my car, I made an informal complaint stating there were no signs on my side of the street to say no parking and they rejected it, sending me the pictures if my car, and a picture of the sign from the opposite side of the street then proceed to send me a NtO.
My question is, where do I stand, is this charge unenforceable? I have read a few sites and they state signs have to be on both sides of the street clearly in veiw of the driver
I have atached the NtO, and picture of my car, with the permit holders parking only sign on the opposite side of the street, the sign that was on my side and a veiw of the the side of the street i parked, clearly no permit holders parking only sign there
[attachment deleted by admin]