Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: ringzer on June 03, 2025, 08:47:14 pm
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Of course, if they weren't so venal and rapacious and issue PCNs like confetti, they would have enough time, but they're obviously too thick and stupid to understand this.
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I received a letter from Greenwich today.
Even when they lost the appeal, the still went down fighting! I mean they only had about 2 months to prepare some evidence...
I would have actually preferred to have had the hearing so a precedent could be set, and visible on the Tribunals website and the yellow box potentially removed.
(https://i.imgur.com/DaNXuFF.png)
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Full decision:
Not sure I fully appreciate the party "neither party attended" given I was told not to attend, but otherwise happy with the outcome.
Now on to applying for costs. Given it was frivolous to move to appeal out of principle I would like to apply for costs and £50 may be the extent of what I would be awarded but that's fine. I am also considering mentioning that I will donate the award to charity - would like to hear opinions on that.
Case Details
Case reference 2250279920
Appellant Anna George
Authority Royal Borough of Greenwich
VRM GL11 DYG
PCN Details
PCN GR23371040
Contravention date -
Contravention time -
Contravention location -
Penalty amount N/A
Contravention -
Referral date -
Decision Date 16 Aug 2025
Adjudicator Louise Fisher
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons
This is an appeal by Ms George (the Appellant) against a penalty charge notice (PCN) issued by the Enforcement Authority (EA), on the basis that the contravention did not occur.
The appeal has been decided on the papers, neither party having attended the re-scheduled video hearing of which they were given notice on 12 August 2025.
Notice of the original hearing was issued on 10 June 2025 and followed by a request from the Appellant on 5 August 2025 for a reschedule to today's date.
It is the responsibility of the EA to demonstrate that there has been a contravention. If I am satisfied from the evidence that there may have been a contravention, then the responsibility moves to the Appellant to demonstrate that, on the balance of probabilities, it is more likely than not that one of the available grounds of appeal is satisfied.
In the absence of the PCN, the EA has not provided any evidence to demonstrate that they have complied with their obligation to serve a PCN on the Appellant.
I therefore find that the Appellant has no case to answer.
It follows therefore that I allow the appeal.
The Appellant having been successful in their appeal, there is no payment to be made.
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You can't apply for costs until the case is concluded at the tribunal. Given Greenwich is dumping so many appeals when it knows it's going to do so I would have thought a costs application could be taken seriously.
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Can I claim back my expenses?
The appeals procedure is designed to be free and not to discourage people from appealing through fear of paying costs and charges.
In the very large majority of cases, the adjudicator will not order costs or expenses to be paid by the enforcing authority to an appellant who wins a case. Similarly, the adjudicator will not order an appellant who loses a case to pay costs to the enforcing authority.
Costs and expenses may only be awarded by the adjudicator in very rare circumstances if the adjudicator determines that you or the enforcing authority has acted ‘frivolously’, ‘vexatiously’ or ‘wholly unreasonably’ in bringing or contesting the appeal.
The adjudicator has no power to award compensation for any distress or anxiety arising from a person receiving a Penalty Charge Notice
If you wish to apply for costs and expenses, you must make a written application as soon as possible after the adjudicator's decision, setting out precisely what expenses you have incurred and why you have incurred them.
Your application for costs will then be referred to the adjudicator for a decision.
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I've just had multiple calls from someone at London Tribunals and given no evidence has been uploaded I was told there is no need to attend the hearing tomorrow as the appeal with be allowed.
I asked about costs and was told that I can apply in writing after the decision, which should come through on Monday.
Is this correct about applying for costs afterwards? I'm obviously pleased about the appeal being allowed but really want to force the issue with Greenwich rejecting the appeal of a clearly invalid claim.
I haven't actually uploaded any evidence other than the suggested live or two suggested earlier in this post, so will upload the letter I sent to the council
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Yes it was mentioned here previously about asking for costs to be awarded so would be keen too understand what to ask for and how.
The yellow box is absolutely invalid and the council must know this but didn't want to allow the appeal and were hoping I would just pay
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Well, there's at least the theoretical possibility that the Council might suddenly present the adjudicators with a compelling reason to ask for the case to be rescheduled.
Given how vexed the adjudicator who is having to give up his or her Saturday for nothing is likely to be by all this, I suggest looking into the adjudicator's power to award you costs. It's quite a high bar, and you'd only get a few pounds, but the experts here can probably tell you how to go about asking the adjudicator nicely and what to ask for.
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This is the Tribunal's position as expressed in a standing Practice Direction. As I understand it, your case comes under the 1993 regs(made under the 1991 Act):
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Practice%20Direction%2001-2025%20on%20behalf%20of%20ETA%2022%20May%202025%20-%20EA%20response%20to%20Notice%20of%20Appeal_0.pdf
Personally and having regard to this Direction, I don't know why the adjudicator in the quoted case had to convene a hearing when under the PD IMO this could have been dealt with administratively without bothering the appellant.
So basically there is no need to convene a hearing if the local authority hasn't served the proper evidence of a contravention within 7 days of me appealing it?
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This is the Tribunal's position as expressed in a standing Practice Direction. As I understand it, your case comes under the 1993 regs(made under the 1991 Act):
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Practice%20Direction%2001-2025%20on%20behalf%20of%20ETA%2022%20May%202025%20-%20EA%20response%20to%20Notice%20of%20Appeal_0.pdf
Personally and having regard to this Direction, I don't know why the adjudicator in the quoted case had to convene a hearing when under the PD IMO this could have been dealt with administratively without bothering the appellant.
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So are they just wasting my time and the adjudicator's time by effectively not showing up with any evidence?
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Greenwich is in a mess currently and doesn't supply evidence to the tribunal for a lot of contested PCNs so this may be another one.
Eg one of two cases yesterday.
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Case reference 2250246717
Appellant xxxxxxx
Authority Royal Borough of Greenwich
VRM LD21HHO
PCN Details
PCN GR2335011A
Contravention date 28 Mar 2025
Contravention time 08:05:00
Contravention location Plumstead Common Road
Penalty amount N/A
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date -
Decision Date 11 Aug 2025
Adjudicator Carl Teper
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons
The Authority was successfully notified by the Tribunal on the 19 May 2025 that the appeal in relation to this Penalty Charge Notice would be heard today, the 11 August 2025 at 8:45am.
The Authority has failed to produce a copy of the Penalty Charge Notice or any other evidence.
Without a copy of the Penalty Charge Notice there is no evidence that a contravention occurred.
I must therefore allow this appeal without consideration of any of the issues raised by either party.
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The council should have uploaded an evidence pack at least 7 days before the hearing, and you should have access to it.
Did they?
Do yo? If so we need to be aware of anything in the evidence pack that justifies their position.
I don't see any evidence pack when I log back into London Tribunals. I see all of my details and the PCN and the only thing in the "Uploaded evidence" is my original submission taken from this forum: "Further information about the appeal: The box junction does not conform to the requirements of TSRGD schedule 9 part 11 para 6 . I will suppy more detail at a later date before any hearing."
So as far as I can tell they haven't Greenwich haven't uploaded anything
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The council should have uploaded an evidence pack at least 7 days before the hearing, and you should have access to it.
Did they?
Do yo? If so we need to be aware of anything in the evidence pack that justifies their position.
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Confirmed hearing for this Saturday 16th August.
Please let me know which part of what I've posted I should highlight
Also, if my husband is to sit in on the call does he need to be listed as a representative?
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Appeal has been accepted and video call scheduled for 14th August 2025. I'm 99% sure I only asked for a Saturday hearing, but they have a Thursday.
Presumably the council will now be informed of my appeal and can choose to proceed or withdraw - is this correct? And is there any hard and fast rule about when councils withdraw the PCN? Do they often withdraw close to the appeal date?
I'll leave it a few weeks but if it looks like they want to proceed I will likely have to reschedule as I'll be on holiday that week.
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In the box asking for details write only this
The box junction does not conform to the requirements of TSRGD schedule 9 part 11 para 6 . I will suppy more detail at a later date before any hearing
Submitted appeal asking for personal video hearing.
I will report back once a hearing has been scheduled (if at all!)
Thank you very much.
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add nothing at all other than what i advise
I have done this before and cases i drafted caused TfL to stop putting boxes at bus depots and stating on their website that they could
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add nothing at all other than what i advise
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Follow PMB's advice and register the appeal as per Reply #1.
Make sure you opt for a personal (= by telephone or video-link) hearing and not postal.
Yes I will apply for a video call appeal.
I had one final question on what to specify in the appeal details. Other than the text as per reply #1, should I attach my letter of appeal to the council now? Or can I upload it later (I believe I can)
You can add it later (as you can add any further points), but a copy should be included in the Council Evidence Pack, which you should revceive by about a week before the hearing date.
Register the appeal and come back here with the Tribunal's letter giving you a hearing date when you receive it.
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Follow PMB's advice and register the appeal as per Reply #1.
Make sure you opt for a personal (= by telephone or video-link) hearing and not postal.
Yes I will apply for a video call appeal.
I had one final question on what to specify in the appeal details. Other than the text as per reply #1, should I attach my letter of appeal to the council now? Or can I upload it later (I believe I can)
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Follow PMB's advice and register the appeal as per Reply #1.
Make sure you opt for a personal (= by telephone or video-link) hearing and not postal.
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Only places a box junction is allowed
Schedule 9 part 11 para 6
(6) For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—
(a)at a junction between two or more roads;
(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;
(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station; and
The annoying thing is that I included all of this in my representation to the PCN in the first place, but they ignored it.
"- According to Section 192 of the road traffic 1988 a road has a definition of “any highway and any other road to which the public has access”
- As noted in the Location on the PCN itself, the junction is immediately outside a private business “Meantime Brewery”. As per a photo from Google Street view, this entrance is not a road, but rather the entrance to a business."
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Only places a box junction is allowed
Schedule 9 part 11 para 6
(6) For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—
(a)at a junction between two or more roads;
(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;
(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station; and
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https://maps.app.goo.gl/qVbDuydmoN4fyyvK9
Is a box junction permitted outside a brewery?
https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/1-the-box
gives this advises this wording as a base for a representation.
Schedule 7, Part 9, 11 (6) of the TSRGD 20016 sets out the permitted locations for yellow boxes. In addition Section 192 of the road traffic 1988 defines a "road" as: “any highway and any other road to which the public has access”. This location does not meet any of these criteria and it is thus an illegal yellow box.
Is this advice sound?
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Video. You almost had room ahead to exit looks like.
(https://i.ibb.co/VcVWrjNB/Get-Video6-ezgif-com-video-to-gif-converter.gif)
Possibly, but still would have overhung a fraction. I guess the point is, you rightly don't expect a junction along a straight road with business entrances along it.
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Video. You almost had room ahead to exit looks like.
(https://i.ibb.co/VcVWrjNB/Get-Video6-ezgif-com-video-to-gif-converter.gif)
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Great, thank you. I didn't realise costs could be awarded, but in this case I believe it would be justified as it is spurious for them to reject. I was pretty close to just paying the £65 and move on with my life, but the solid case (reiterated by you!) meant I decided not to pay.
Yes I will appeal to London Tribunals and will include the text you shared.
While researching the original appeal letter, I noticed on the London Tribunals search page that I couldn't find any cases in Greenwich for my location. I suspect the cases aren't registered properly as I find it surprising that have been appealed.
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IMO this will 100% win at adjudication and costs could well be awarded in your favour
If it is your intention to appeal then register your appeal with London Tribunals
In the box asking for details write only this
The box junction does not conform to the requirements of TSRGD schedule 9 part 11 para 6 . I will suppy more detail at a later date before any hearing
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Summary:
Stopped for about 7 seconds on a yellow box on Blackwall Lane outside a brewery - so not a valid junction in my opinion
Appeal:
On the basis of the appeal below, I believed I had a good case for it to be cancelled and only found this website once they rejected my appeal.
See full letter below but appealed on the following basis:
1. Yellow box is invalid - it's on a road at the entrace to a private business.
2. Markings are faded
3. Only stopped on yellow box for 7-8 seconds
Appeal Letter
(https://i.imgur.com/xQz3BzU.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/IUYlHkk.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/SVT9zqS.png)
PCNs & Rejection Letter
(https://i.imgur.com/K8Srd5U.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/dikwsqV.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/rYYXxPr.png)
Location:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/VJAkayGRBYxjYL4J6
(https://i.imgur.com/iBMFmG0.png)
Similar
I found this https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/yellow-box-junction-ilford-ley-street/ and believe my case is even more iron clad