Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Sachinpatel001 on October 04, 2023, 12:11:18 am
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sorry, just come home after a night out and should have read back through the post. Please email me at mrmustard@zoho.com with unredacted copies of the PCN and the Notice of Rejection and I will respond directly to you tomorrow.
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Thanks mrmustard….. since Barney council have rejected my appeal as per above my next step is to appeal to london tribunals via the “notice of appeal” form. It says the council will send my original appeal (which I have posted above on page 1) to the adjudicator but if I want to add anything I can attach it. I would think I now need to write another letter to make clear why the council are wrong.
Would appreciate some help after I write something please
Thanks
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If the council reject I am happy to take over and deal at the tribunal stage
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I have lost 8 tribunal cases this year. I have won 83. I do more Barnet appeals than anyone. For free in person tribunal attendance please email mrmustard@zoho.com
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The council will win if you do not persuade the adjudicator that your argument is correct
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Thank you
And yes I think I will ask to go to adjudication.
So, just so I am clear with the rules the only way the council would have a case is if the car in front of me stopped directly in front of the exit of the YBJ and stopped there being space for me to exit therefore meaning I would enter and block the YBJ ?
In the video evidence it is clear that when I enter the YBJ there is still space in the exit of the YBJ and if I nudged forward a bit I wouldn’t have been in the box. Again no idea why I didn’t nudge forward
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Unsurprising rejection but they are making the rules up as they go along.
If you take this to the tribunal I'd give you almost 100% chance of winning. In fact I suspect Barnet would give up a few days before the case is due to be heard.
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Hi guys
Please see below respomse from Barnet
I think they are trying to say that i went steaming into the YBJ without checking the exit was safe but the image clearly shows there was extra space beyond where I stopped.
Thanks
https://imgur.com/6E054Y3
https://imgur.com/JAOxtX0
https://imgur.com/wg4j9iK
https://imgur.com/gby3ekm
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Thanks
Yeh probably was a bit waffly
Is this one ok ?
Dear Sir/Madam,
I write to you to challenge the above PCN related to the traffic contravention “31J entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited”.
I have reviewed your video evidence and fail to see that it shows the reason for what can only be described as minimal intrusion into the yellow box.
The law is clear in that a driver may not enter and stop in a yellow box due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
Your video fails to show stationary vehicles causing the stop.
Without this critical condition, enforcement of this PCN is flawed and cannot be sustained.
I trust having considered the above evidence that this PCN will be cancelled.
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You have drifted from the law into the highway code, guidance and airy fairy.
Why not stick with the draft I wrote for you?
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Hi guys
How does this look :
Dear Sir/Madam,
I write to you to challenge the above PCN related to the traffic contravention “31J entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited”.
The law , as set out in the Highway Code, states You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.
The video evidence you have provided clearly shows that there was no infringement to this. Upon entering the box junction my exit lane WAS clear. The video shows there was minimal intrusion into the box which did not impede entry/exit to any of the associated roads it is designed to protect.
Additionally, the law is clear in that a driver may not enter and stop in a yellow box due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
Your evidence video fails to show stationary vehicles causing the stop.
Without this critical condition, enforcement of this PCN is flawed and cannot be sustained.
I trust having considered the above evidence that this PCN will be cancelled.
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Thanks DancingDad :D that’s made my day !
Wonder if I could literally be that blunt and send that exact response ? Or would that annoy them
LoL
Stick with the draft starting Dear Sirs..... that is carefully worded.
Hugs and Kisses are optional
It is quite possible that they will come back with a rejection based on stopping but they would be ignoring the three legs of the contravention.
You must cause the vehicle to enter.... so the lorry behind shunting you into the box doesn't count.
You must stop
It must be due to stationary vehicles
To quote various adjudicators, moving buses, pedestrians, tuning the radio and exploding meteorites don't count. (honest, all have been used as examples by adjudicators)
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Thanks DancingDad :D that’s made my day !
Wonder if I could literally be that blunt and send that exact response ? Or would that annoy them
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To repeat what others have said.
While we may all assume that you stopped because of traffic, the video does not show that.
For all anyone knows, you stopped due to uncontrollable sneezing or the band of the Scots Guards crossing the road or a troupe of performing Just Stop Oil.
To be very clear, you can stop and have a picnic without breaking the rules on YBJs.
Without evidence of stopping due to stationary traffic the contravention cannot be upheld.
Dear sirs
Ref PCN ????
I have reviewed your video evidence and fail to see that it shows the reason for what can only be described as minimal intrusion into the yellow box.
The law is clear in that a driver may not enter and stop in a yellow box due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
Your video fails to show stationary vehicles causing the stop.
Without this critical condition, enforcement of this PCN is flawed and cannot be sustained.
Many thanks in anticipation of your cancellation.
Hugs and Kisses.
Tis all that is needed
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Yes, please do that and we can polish it a bit for you.
I've also now read the Pepipoo thread you referenced. That case is a bit different to yours as the camera angle shows a stationary vehicle immediately ahead. Your case is much stronger.
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Thank you
I will write an appeal letter/email and post on here before sending
Thanks again
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The rules of the box are an invention of the people who write the Highway Code, it is not the actual law, which is that an offence occurs if the vehicle enters the box and has to stop within it due to the presence of stationary vehicles. Before CCTV and council enforcement, these YBJs were seldom enforced, but the traffic flowed OK. Enforcement makes shedloads of money for councils, so it is encumbent upon them to prove a contravention using their CCTV recording, there being no other evidence. The video for your PCN shows no stationary vehicle in front of you. An adjudicator cannot assume that one is there, and can only judge on the evidence in front of him/her.
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Thank you
I understand that the rules of the YBJ state that the exit out of the box should be clear before entering it and it looks like the exit is clear but for whatever reason the vehicle in front appears to stop (video doesn’t show why).
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=126751
I think this argument was tried as mentioned and was rejected.
I might try the same argument again but if so is it likely to fail again ?
Thank you
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Rejected by whom? Barnet? ;D
They will never agree and will rely on brinkmanship to pressure you into paying. The only independent decision will come from the tribunal.
See what other experienced regulars on this forum think, but if this was me I'd take this all the way on the basis there is no actual evidence of a contravention in the council's own footage. There is a hint of a shadow of a possible vehicle at the top of the screen at the start but this is not possible to distinguish once your vehicle comes to a halt, and even if there was a stationary vehicle there when you entered the box it needs to be full stationary at the point you stop for the offence to be made out and I can't see how the video shows this.
You say yourself you aren't sure why you didn't nudge forward more, which suggests to me you don't think there was a vehicle off screen blocking you in.
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Thanks
Yeh I agree but I saw from the previous forum that someone had tried to use that argument previously a few years back and it was rejected so not shre if it’s worth trying again ?
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You only commit an offence if you stop in the box behind a stationary vehicle.
It's impossible to see what's in front of the box due to the camera angle and so I don't think Barnet are able to prove their case.
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Hi so sorry it seemed to work when I previewed it
The PCN No is AG44074557
REG : CF71 VUH
thank you
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THe video doesn't work - "session has elapsed" or similar. If you post the PCN Number and reg number we can look, or download the video.
The video is the sole evidenc, and must show your car entering the box as that is when the offence occurs.
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Hi Guys
I got this lovely gift from Barnet council ::)
I have inserted the video link below so hopefully its ok
My car is the convertible and the pictures/video clearly show that my rear wheels are stuck in the top end of the YBJ. Not sure why I didn't just nudge forward more!
I guess i'm not arguing whether I stopped in the YBJ because the video clearly shows I did for more than 15 secs.
The only argument I think I could use relates to the layout/position of the YBJ.
Where the rear of my vehicle is stopped is in no way blocking any access to the adjoining road it is meant to keep clear so not sure why the YBJ extends beyond the border of traffic island?
Anyway I would appreciate your feedback and whether its worth a letter to appeal or just to suck it up
Cheers Guys!
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq70/922/IQDZPT.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmIQDZPTj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq70/924/ndrRKk.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pondrRKkj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq70/922/aEvwjb.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmaEvwjbj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq70/923/xiXS71.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnxiXS71j)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq70/924/E4ut4H.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/poE4ut4Hj)
https://barnetocm.itsvc.co.uk/PCN/GetPartialVideo?v=C249191DF9EC54EF1BE3CFD178654762AB2DE4ABDC6EC06A88FB267A83E8E43D34D9F68D43F8ACE9E396A7A8D874CC1D227982D90D76AA1EAB52905F7BC35F57D34149EFAC34F3FA660C88D18D15F4EC2B86DB73AEB2DB38598E3416FCCEB43A11B0E0174418F4CE7607FCC184BB71A9282EB53E2B20FE720EC7909B695B090A96254127E0C2B76B7256DBB26D3C3AE91E6A26371DB2B358D39A1757967F3192EE9548058219A79AEB99BB2137666D64