Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Helpneededthis on October 03, 2023, 10:39:25 pm
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Thank you cp8759, three solid pages of what the law says and why Haringey were wrong. They have had many bloody noses at my hands and perhaps decided to avoid the grief. They were declining to give me a copy of the cctv from the pound - I was dubious of the reasons but as I had got the cancellation I have saved my energy for a different fight.
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Those must have been some impressive representations, I can't recall any cases where reps in a towing case were accepted.
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Update: Formal representations were made on 12 October 2023 with 4 strands:
1 Trivial contravention
2 Towing not justified
3 PCN 28 day wording incorrect
4 correct representations form not handed over at the car pound.
On 15 November 'based upon all the evidence' Haringey Council sent a Notice of Acceptance and were processing a refund of £265.
The bays on the footway have now been moved to the road. My enquiries continue.
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I'm on the case. There was no representations form handed to the person who recovered the vehicle, that is a clear procedural impropriety.
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@Helpneededthis I suggest you take up Mr Mustard's offer.
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CP8759 is probably thinking about signs saying marked bays only but I have a different approach, the paperwork given out at the pound.
I do not see that Helpneededthis has been given a document which tells me how and when to make representations against the tow and the PCN.
Helpneededthis, please do not separate the pages, leave them stapled together just as they are, I will want the originals to take to the tribunal, as Haringey are bound to reject representations.
I would like to make your representations so please email me at mrmustard@zoho.com (CP8759 won't mind, we work together in the background).
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Hi, to my recollection I came from Wilbury Way but could also possibly could have come from White Hart Lane, given I did/do multiple trips in a day. In terms of the best argument, which direction should we presume I came from and how should I structure my appeal please!
Also I can confirm the GSV signs are not out of date in regards to parking!
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In terms of appealing the PCN and Tow, what would be the best justification?
There is a sign here https://maps.app.goo.gl/xzFj1mgKzDxvD54y9 but that's coming from the opposite directions.
Google street view might be out of date, can you please retrace your route and confirm whether you would have passed any such signs?
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Hi Mike. Thank you for the explanation! It was very useful. In my earlier posts I have attached the tow and PCN documents. I am a TED permit holder indeed!
In terms of appealing the PCN and Tow, what would be the best justification?
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OP-----have we seen the PCN or the pound documents yet?
We are dealing with a tow which appears predicated upon the vehicle being beyond the footway markings.
If the Council had issued a DYL contravention they would IMO be justified in towing the vehicle but they haven't. So we are left with a footway parking contravention which puting it in the worst possible light is a de minimis infraction which does not justify the tow.
In addition to allow footway parking in London the Council must,by Resolution, indicate which parts of the footway can be used. More often the Council specifies a whole street not just parts of the pavement.
Members are concentrating on the signs in place which may be valid or not. Footway parking alongside school zig zags is novel but only exacerbates the b****y mess that HCA perceives.
The main sign leaves a lot to be desired:-
https://maps.app.goo.gl/exh9v2TprkfXV9bbA
Can I take it you are a TED permit holder?
Mike
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Hi, there are none of those signs outside the parking spot. There are only the signs I attached previously
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There is a sign here https://maps.app.goo.gl/xzFj1mgKzDxvD54y9 but that's coming from the opposite directions.
Google street view might be out of date, can you please retrace your route and confirm whether you would have passed any such signs?
If not, we can still construct an argument based on signs being in the area but obviously if we can show that you actually passed one, it would be a stronger argument.
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OK, but are there any of the following outside the parking places?
Part 2 to Schedule 7, Items 12-17 (14 and 15 modified to read In Marked Bays)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made
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Sorry only allowed 4 attachments per post
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Hey, I believe I came from Wilbury Way
I can confirm the parking signs on GSV are the same as currently.
I’ve attached pictures to show this:
Red is the sign closest to where the vehicle was parked
Blue is the sign closest to White Hart Lane
And Yellow/Gold is the sign closest to Wilbury Way
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The route taken could show which signs may have been passed
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I can't remember the exact route but it was either the following routes:
- White Hart Lane N17 onto to Weir Hall Road N17
- Oak Avenue N17 onto to Weir Hall Road N17
- Wilbury Way N18 / Lansbury Way N18 onto Wir Hall road N17
To the best of your recollection, which one was it? If you think that driving the various routes might jog your memory, do that.
@CP - I'm a little confused - route for a footway parking offence?
Yep, it can be crucial.
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If you look at GSV - albeit 1 year ago - the road is replete with footway parking signs, none of which refer to markings and some which even face the wrong way. But above all, every marked area on the footway is a parking place with associated traffic signs(albeit they show the permitted sign for two wheels when the whole parking place in on the footway!), but then some have the 'end of footway parking' signs, but these aren't needed when the permission is not blanket but limited to parking places(for which a TMO would suffice, providing it was in sufficient detail).
It's a b****y mess.
But exactly how much of this bears upon the OP's situation?
OP, you live there so we need need up to date photos e.g. the parking place in which you were partly parked, the signs beyond and before of the form white on blue showing a car parked on a pavement - see the traffic sign in the parking place etc.
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Please can you confirm the exact route you took to get to this location?
In any event you've paid all there is to pay, so you might as well try and challenge it but we need to get all the facts first.
@CP - I'm a little confused - route for a footway parking offence?
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Thank you for your input!
Please can you confirm the exact route you took to get to this location?
In any event you've paid all there is to pay, so you might as well try and challenge it but we need to get all the facts first.
I can't remember the exact route but it was either the following routes:
- White Hart Lane N17 onto to Weir Hall Road N17
- Oak Avenue N17 onto to Weir Hall Road N17
- Wilbury Way N18 / Lansbury Way N18 onto Wir Hall road N17
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Please can you confirm the exact route you took to get to this location?
In any event you've paid all there is to pay, so you might as well try and challenge it but we need to get all the facts first.
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fingers crossed he does!
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Thank you, I'm assuming there's no specific way to get his attention?
I've no doubt he'll look at all the new cases soon. This is a London-specific problem with a possible solution, but I'm not totally up-to-speed on it.
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Thank you, I'm assuming there's no specific way to get his attention?
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Our esteemed administrator CP8759 has built up considerable expertise in this little-known aspect of parking law specific to London. Hopefully he will be able to assist, although he's a very busy man !
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Yeah I was solely relying on the marked bays.
Ah i see, where can I look into the details of this resolution on Weir Hall Road? Or are there any specific members I can reach out to assist?
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Footway parking is allowed on that street via marked bays.
And the evidence is?
You may be relying on the signage at the location.
But what Incandescent was explaining was that often, when a Council passes a resolution enabling footway parking, they simply enable it in XYZ Road, without also specifying any lines or bays or particular lengths. If a Council fails to so specify in the resolution, then such parking is enabled the entire length, irrespective of any lines or signs. Some of the members here are expert in obtaining the resolution.
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Hi Both,
Thanks for your responses! Sorry for the delay in my response I don't seem to get the notifications when there's been response!
I've attached the the PCN and documentation recieved from the pound.
The GSV is https://maps.app.goo.gl/nvaA82MEVk73NwFK6
Footway parking is allowed on that street via marked bays.
Unfortunately did not talk to the tow people before the car was placed on the truck
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Oh dear, I must have been asleep !
Yes it's a footway parking not a double-yellows PCN because your car is outside the marked bay, so there may be hope because councils rarely get this right. They authorise a derogation from the London-wide ban on footway parking but very rarely define the actual lengths of that street where they want to allow parking. So if you can show the whole street is derogated from the 70s legislation, you're in with a chance.
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As I posted on Pepipoo:-
We need to see the PCN and the documentation you got at the pound.
Also a GSV of the location.
Is footway parking allowed in that street i.e. marked bays? Or, is footway parking the norm in that street?
"Woke up to your car being towed" were you able to talk to the tow people before your car was placed on the truck?
This is not a DYL contravention it's footway parking.
Mike
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Hi Incandescent, many thanks for your response! I've attached a side view and rear view, if it helps. In the rear view can it be argued it doesn't necessarily go into the double yellow line (clutching at straws here! haha)
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It's not whether the wheel is over the line, but how much of the car length. Yours looks about 25% over, although there's no photo taken from the side. However, this is over any de minimis consideration with the rear wheels by the double-yellow lines. So you can't really argue the PCN.
Is the tow disproportionate ? Well, you're into double-yellow lines which mean No Waiting 24x7, so it would be difficult to make this argument. But you've now paid all there is to pay, so it's a no-brainer to make them do some work for their ill-gotten gains and appeal this on disproportionate penalty. Of course the council will refuse your representations so you'd have to go to London Tribunals. If you lose, you've already paid anyway, if you win, you might get the tow and storage fees back, but I can't see an adjudicator agreeing to cancel the PCN.
Others may differ, so wait a bit, but don't miss any deadlines; you only have so many days to submit reps to the council.
Other things that can win are fatal errors in the PCN, and also incompetent practices in the car pound resulting in you not getting all the documents that you should be given.
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Hi All,
New to this forum so apologies if I don't word things in the appropriate manner. I'm fed up of the council taking advantage of ignorance and towing cars to raise funds!
Context: My car was parked outside my property the night before (poorly lit road with autumn leaves obscuring ). The next morning I fell in the shower twisted my ankle so was unable to go to work. I woke up confused to my car being towed. I had to pay to get my car released because of the daily storage of £40
Help/Queries:
1) Did the contravention occur? The rear wheel is marginally over the line and in the dark it wasn't apparent.
2) If the contravention occurred, is it consumerate/proportional for the car to be towed and not solely issued a PCN?
Any help is much appreciated!
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