Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: bebu on October 03, 2023, 11:25:33 am

Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: cp8759 on October 27, 2023, 04:10:16 pm
For future reference, here is The Council of Borough of Milton Keynes (Central Milton Keynes) (On-Street Standard Tariff Parking Places) Consolidation Order 2020 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=17OOaUeEcfsppuR9PVD61qIl_ZJYPKtwA).
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: bebu on October 20, 2023, 03:19:08 pm
I had a PCN also from heathrow airport, I drove throw the terminal 5 drop off location.

I later drove my dad into the parking lot and paid on exit, I then got a PCN in the post, saying I did not pay at the drop off location

So I sent an explaination that I had paid 4x at the parking lot and got let off

Results ............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :D  ;D  :o  8)  ::)  ;)


My sincere appreciation to everyone. Thank you
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: bebu on October 18, 2023, 09:14:40 am
Winning team    :)  :D  ;D  8)  ::)  :P

Just got an email today that the PCN has been cancelled, good will gesture

Thank you everyone. Whoop ! Whoop !!
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: cp8759 on October 08, 2023, 07:44:30 pm
I would go for "any other reason".
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: bebu on October 07, 2023, 09:29:11 pm
The other thing, is which option do I chose ?



Parking
16-Parked in a permit space without displaying a valid permit

We will consider your appeal according to our appeals policy. If your reason for appeal is not listed in the policy, we are unlikely to accept it. However we will still consider your case individually.

Pay and display (P&D) or Cashless
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving P&D tickets or cashless parking sessions.

Select a reason:
 I had a Pay and Display (P&D) ticket 
 I made a mistake when purchasing my pay and display (P&D) ticket 
 I paid by phone or app 
 I was in a rush and forgot to pay 
 The ticket machine was broken and I couldn't purchase a P&D ticket 
Permits
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving parking permits.

Select a reason:
 I had a permit 
Blue Badge
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving Blue Badges

Select a reason:
 I had a Blue Badge 
Emergency / beyond driver's control
Reasons that relate to something unexpected happening to the motorist that must be seen to immediately

Select a reason:
 I became unwell while driving 
 I had to see to my child as they needed the toilet 
 My passenger became unwell while I was driving 
 My vehicle had broken down 
 My vehicle was cloned 
 My vehicle was stolen 
PCN wrongly / unfairly issued
Reasons where it may appear that the PCN was issued unfairly or incorrectly.

Select a reason:
 I only stopped for a few minutes 
 I was not the driver 
 I was not the owner of the vehicle 
 I was only a few minutes late back to my vehicle 
 I was unaware of the rules 
 The vehicle was on hire to someone else 
 There was nowhere else to park 
 I have already paid the PCN 
Other
Other reasons we have received that do not fall into one of the above categories.

Select a reason:
 I didn't see any signs or lines 
 I was loading / unloading at the time 
None of the above
If none of the above reasons apply, and you wish to challenge your PCN, please select below:

Select a reason:
 Any other reason 
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: bebu on October 07, 2023, 09:26:36 pm
Interesting. Many thanks guys. I re-worded my appeal as thus


Dear Milton Keynes Council,

I challenge liability on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur and in this case, a waiver based on compassionate grounds. At the time when the CEO observed my vehicle, I was engaged in loading and assisted boarding. For context, I had stayed in the travelodge hotel and was in the process of leaving, when the CEO observed my car I was making my way back to the vehicle with my elderly father and around two 20 KG of luggage (Total of over 40kg and a hand luggage, for my dad and my own personal luggage. Total of 4 luggages). I was accompanying my aged father to Heathrow airport and his flight was due to take off at 11 am.

My father is 87 ( in January) and a widower (This can easily be confirmed as he flew BA)

Notably I returned to the vehicle around 7.53am (With the 1st sets of luggage) and the ticket was issued at 7.52am

While I appreciate why the CEO might have thought I was in contravention, if he had observed the vehicle for only a couple more minutes he would have seen me return to my vehicle and it would have been obvious to him that I was engaged in loading bulky luggage. I then drove around the complex, but did not see him ( Despite driving around the complex ) We departed the premises at 8.04am ( See whatsapp message to my cousin, I repeat the ticket was issued 7.52am)

In the circumstances the alleged contravention did not occur

I have attached a screenshot of my whatsapp message to my cousin, who was to meet us at the airport in Heathrow. Sent at 8.04am, telling him we were loaded up and leaving for heathrow

The time on my phone reads 8.19am ( As my phone is 15mins fast,as I intentionally set it as so, to keep me on time at work) I have also attached a copy of a screenshot of my cousin and brothers phone (which shows the correct time)

There is no way, I can ask my 87 year old father to walk to the back of the complex with over 50kg of luggage. Neither can I carry it alone, as I had driven 4 hours to MK and then 1 hour to the airport and 1 hour back to London and 4 hours back home.

In lieu of the above, I hereby request the charges be waived

Many thanks
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: H C Andersen on October 07, 2023, 07:26:58 pm
It's a toss up really between asking them to exercise discretion and contesting liability with a story which as yet has no backing as regards evidence.

OP,is checking out a formal process, if so there might be a record?

As you are beyond the discount period you're in for the full penalty anyway unless it's re-offered. Can you bolster your challenge with anything of substance e.g. your dad's age, any physical conditions etc.

IMO, you should pre-empt the council's possible cynical view which would be that you displayed the Travelodge's permit, but parked in the wrong place and had been in contravention anyway for nearly an hour. Your posts here imply that you knew of the restriction but thought that at 8am you'd be safe.

IMO, there's nothing wrong with combining both suggested approaches and ask them to exercise discretion should they feel they haven't got sufficient reasons to cancel under your main grounds, for example if your loading and assisted boarding are not exemptions to the restriction. I think the last point is important, you want them to declare two things: whether loading and assisted boarding are exemptions(and whether they consider that your submission meets their threshold; and why, if they do not exercise discretion, they are not minded to do so on this occasion. At present the challenge doesn't draw them on these essentials but simply asserts and invites a thinly reasoned rejection.
And remember, you also want to encourage them to re-offer the discount.
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: cp8759 on October 07, 2023, 04:42:26 pm
I disagree, here's what I would send:

Dear Milton Keynes Council,

I challenge liability on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur. At the time when the CEO observed my vehicle, I was engaged in loading and assisted boarding. For context, I had stayed in the travelodge hotel and was in the process of leaving, when the CEO observed my car I was making my way back to the vehicle with my elderly father and around 20 KG of luggage. I was accompanying my father to Heathrow airport and his flight was due to take off at 11 am.

While I appreciate why the CEO might have thought I was in contravention, if he had observed the vehicle for only a couple more minutes he would have seen me return to my vehicle and it would have been obvious to him that I was engaged in loading bulky luggage.

In the circumstances the alleged contravention did not occur.

Obviously we don't know at this stage if the traffic order has a loading exemption, but almost all TROs we see have such an exemption so we might as well have a go.
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: Incandescent on October 06, 2023, 11:33:21 pm
All you can really submit in your representations is a request for them to apply mitigation, based on your narrative given to us, and ask that on this ocasion, the PCN be cancelled.  Be aware that if refused and you take the matter further, the adjudicators cannot apply mitigation, it is in the sole power of the council. In addition, the full PCN penalty would be in play.
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: bebu on October 06, 2023, 07:19:30 pm
So what should my appeal be based upon ?

Many thanks
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: Incandescent on October 06, 2023, 01:43:29 pm
Nothing strange about enforcing 7 days a week, we see it all the time, indeed 24x7 is very common. Reason for it is it makes so much money for the councils, the traffic management aspect is about 5%
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: bebu on October 06, 2023, 11:39:58 am
Quote from: cp8759 on October 06, 2023, 12:58:06 am
Quote from: bebu on October 06, 2023, 12:20:31 am
I got to my car before 8am. Probably 5 or 10 mins after the ticket was issued
What happened after the ticket was issued isn't really important, I'm trying to work out the sequence of events prior to the PCN being issued. The PCN was issued at 7:52, did you see the enforcement officer? Did the officer see you? From what you say it sounds like you got to the car between 7:52 and 8 am?

You haven't answered my original question: when exactly did you leave the hotel room to start making your way to the car?

I must have left the hotel room at 7.50-ish, as its less than 2 minutes walk to my car and on getting to the car, I saw the ticket but did not see any enforcement officer. I then drove around the complex. I know for sure it was before 8am

I find it strange to enforce 24 hours parking even on sunday. As My uncle lives in paddington central london and its free to park weekends

So what should my appeal be based upon ?
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: Incandescent on October 06, 2023, 12:59:27 am
I have to say this one looks difficult because the restriction to permit holders applies on all days of the week between 07.00 and 08.30, when one can pay to park.
NOt only that, the sign with the restrictions is right by the OPs car, if you look at the first photo, it is to the left, although only partly visible, but I can't see an adjudicator saying the sign wasn't visible.

Basically, the OP didn't look before parking-up and going to bed exhausted. OK, wew've all done it, but unfortunately exhaustion is not grounds for a valid appeal. Sorry to be so negative but I see no outcome other than pay the discount. Quite why Milton Keynes Council have this rather odd restriction, only they know, It applies Monday to Sunday; why ?
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: cp8759 on October 06, 2023, 12:58:06 am
Quote from: bebu on October 06, 2023, 12:20:31 am
I got to my car before 8am. Probably 5 or 10 mins after the ticket was issued
What happened after the ticket was issued isn't really important, I'm trying to work out the sequence of events prior to the PCN being issued. The PCN was issued at 7:52, did you see the enforcement officer? Did the officer see you? From what you say it sounds like you got to the car between 7:52 and 8 am?

You haven't answered my original question: when exactly did you leave the hotel room to start making your way to the car?
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: bebu on October 06, 2023, 12:29:51 am
See attachment

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: bebu on October 06, 2023, 12:20:31 am
I got to my car before 8am. Probably 5 or 10 mins after the ticket was issued

I have a WhatsApp message on my phone sent to my cousin. Who was meant to meet us at the airport saying "We are off to terminal 5"

Message was sent 8.19am and my phone is 10 mins fast. As I intentionally set it so.

Secondly I sent the message at 8.19am (or 8.09am ) when our luggage was in the car and heading off

Thirdly, the car was at the side of the hotel. And I drove to the front. And carried all 3 luggages down, before we set off. So I know it was before 8am

My dad's flight was 11am and I know we got there 2 hours before take off. We missed our way into terminal 5. Before finding the boarding gate and after checking in. I sent the message at 9.16am (9.26am on my phone) to my cousin. Seen in the attachment below
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: cp8759 on October 05, 2023, 11:55:42 pm
It is possible for a PCN to be legally issued but for that same PCN to still be open to challenge. At what time exactly, to the best of your recollection, did you start making your way to the car?
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: bebu on October 05, 2023, 09:50:15 pm
thanks for the updates

We got to the hotel the night before, it was dark, when we got there.



We had about two 20kg suitcases and a hand luggage and we got to the car around 8am and left for heathrow shortly afterwards

So is what they issued legal or can be challenged ?

many thanks
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: cp8759 on October 05, 2023, 09:06:05 pm
The council photos are inconclusive at best, as they show no relation to where the signs are compared to the car (the sign on the other side of the road doesn't count):

(https://i.imgur.com/H2vLbKv.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ICWDD6Q.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/LnZmAwP.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/eCNQzhv.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/YKn3vxZ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/QbCCAWe.jpg)

At what time exactly did you get to the car? Did you have much luggage?

Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: bebu on October 04, 2023, 02:31:01 pm
Quote from: John U.K. on October 04, 2023, 02:16:55 pm
It is still redacted!


sorry i have updated it, thanks
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: John U.K. on October 04, 2023, 02:16:55 pm
It is still redacted!
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: bebu on October 04, 2023, 01:44:28 pm
Quote from: Pastmybest on October 03, 2023, 05:21:00 pm
Perhaps you might post the PCN the right way up and without redacting anything so we can check it for errors also we can look to the council site at the photos. Don't worry no one will pay for you


I have uploaded the PCN tickets afresh

kind regards

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: Pastmybest on October 03, 2023, 05:21:00 pm
Perhaps you might post the PCN the right way up and without redacting anything so we can check it for errors also we can look to the council site at the photos. Don't worry no one will pay for you
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: Incandescent on October 03, 2023, 05:15:11 pm
Quote
I didnt think anything would be enforced on sunday morning, since we were leaving at 8am
Councils flood the streets with CEO patrols nowadays as the money just rolls in, so they can afford to do so.

As far as I can see the PCN looks OK, so the discount may well be your best option, but wait a bit to see what the others say. However don't miss any deadlines on the PCN.
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: bebu on October 03, 2023, 02:59:32 pm
Via google maps, It was here MK9 1AL

Looking at the google street view, you would see the car park of the complex, the view is facing the hotel, where my room was on the 1st floor. My car was parked on the parking slot. As I mentioned it was a saturday night and I didnt think anything would be enforced on sunday morning, since we were leaving at 8am


https://www.google.com/maps/@52.038254,-0.7713749,3a,75y,329.28h,86.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siy6T2wGKS7zJsvN3YBuChg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

see PCN attached

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: Incandescent on October 03, 2023, 02:46:01 pm
So for a council PCN, please post it, all sides. You can redact the reg. number if you want, but it's not important, but we must see everything else, because a fatal error of content in a PCN renders it void.

Please also give a GSV link to the location, (Google Street View). It'll look Like this: -
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5075655,-0.1278434,3a,75y,107.51h,86.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sU-dVt8BqAD197M633rHgPg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?authuser=0&entry=ttu

If you were not in the hotel car park but on a public road with parking restrictions, the council can enforce them.
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: bebu on October 03, 2023, 01:14:10 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on October 03, 2023, 01:03:54 pm
Is this a private ticket or a council one?

council
Title: Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: cp8759 on October 03, 2023, 01:03:54 pm
Is this a private ticket or a council one?
Title: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
Post by: bebu on October 03, 2023, 11:25:33 am
hello guys
my aged dad came to visit me in yorkshire and was booked to fly back sunday morning. So I booked milton keynes travelodge. Where we stayed for the night. The lady gave us a parking permit and told us to park at the back ( which was full at the time of arrival)

Since we were leaving the hotel early sunday morning and I was exhausted, I fell asleep. Next day was a chore getting my aged dad to the car, by the time we got to the car around 8am, there was a ticket PCN for £35 and £70 if extended.

Is it legal to issue tickets before 8am on sunday mornings ? even though their was a sign there, but I did not notice it the night before, as I thought it was a weekend

Location: Silbury boulevard

Ticket issued: at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge

Issuing Body Milton Keynes council

Howe do I appeal this ? I feel its very unfair, for tickets to be issued before 8am working hours


I admit my oversight, but moving forward what can I do ?

thanks