Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Handsomejohnny on May 13, 2025, 12:54:22 pm
-
No. You did receive the NTO, then made reps but didn't receive the NOR.
C'est la vie.
The adjudicator would ask for a copy of your reps and their NOR just for starters.
Just wait for their directions pl.
-
I don't really care and IMO neither should you!
(2) A witness statement must state one and only one of the following—
(a)that P did not receive the enforcement notice;
(b)that P made representations to the enforcement authority under regulation 5 of the 2022 Appeals Regulations but a notice of rejection was not received from that authority in accordance with regulation 6 of those Regulations;
7) Where a witness statement is served including a statement under paragraph (2)(b), (c) or (d), the enforcement authority must refer the case to the adjudicator.
Where a case is referred to the adjudicator—
(a)the adjudicator may give P and the enforcement authority (“the parties”) such directions as the adjudicator considers appropriate in the circumstances, and
(b)the parties must comply with those directions.
Note the words...'must refer' and 'did not receive' i.e. nothing to do with whether they issued, it's that it wasn't received!
Ok, so in referring to the adjudicator the burden is on the council to prove that I received the NOR, rather than they sent it.
I'll sit tight, thanks for helping again.
-
I don't really care and IMO neither should you!
(2) A witness statement must state one and only one of the following—
(a)that P did not receive the enforcement notice;
(b)that P made representations to the enforcement authority under regulation 5 of the 2022 Appeals Regulations but a notice of rejection was not received from that authority in accordance with regulation 6 of those Regulations;
7) Where a witness statement is served including a statement under paragraph (2)(b), (c) or (d), the enforcement authority must refer the case to the adjudicator.
Where a case is referred to the adjudicator—
(a)the adjudicator may give P and the enforcement authority (“the parties”) such directions as the adjudicator considers appropriate in the circumstances, and
(b)the parties must comply with those directions.
Note the words...'must refer' and 'did not receive' i.e. nothing to do with whether they issued, it's that it wasn't received!
-
Pl stick to the procedure and read their letter carefully.
They are offering you the chance to pay. That's very generous of them. This step is outside procedure.
They have the obligation to refer the matter to the adjudicator which they say would be done if payment not received.
As they're not offering the discount, it's a no-brainer to leave in their court and wait because there is nothing else for you to do within procedure until you hear from the tribunal.
Ah, so is this more of a cheeky attempt by them to get me to pay and wrap it up, rather than a demand, so to speak?
Does that mean that section 4 of the letter re how to appeal doesn't apply until after its referred to the adjudicator? Or is that in relation to the NOR that they claim to have sent? I was thrown by the line about making an appeal within 28 days of the NOR, and even more so by the incorrect PCN/Reg details on the letter...
-
Pl stick to the procedure and read their letter carefully.
They are offering you the chance to pay. That's very generous of them. This step is outside procedure.
They have the obligation to refer the matter to the adjudicator which they say would be done if payment not received.
As they're not offering the discount, it's a no-brainer to leave in their court and wait because there is nothing else for you to do within procedure until you hear from the tribunal.
-
@John U.K.
I just received the attached letter from the council. It states that they sent me a NOR on 27 May 2025, but the details they've provided show 27 August 2025 with a different PCN number and a different vehicle reg.
What's the best course of action? They clearly haven't hit the 56 day response deadline, so it seems logical that as per legislation they're deemed to have accepted my reps by default and the PCN is cancelled.
Should I make that my appeal, or contact the council and advise them to withdraw the PCN and cancel it?
It appears that I won't be able to make an appeal online as the details they've provided relate to another PCN issued after mine (attached), which also seems wonky as the date they've given for the NOR issue looks to be too far after the date of PCN issue and there's no photos of the car...
-
@John U.K.
Thanks. This is the letter I received and a screenshot of the current PCN status
-
Please post all of the letter from TEC, redacting only yr name & address.
-
Hi all, I hope it's OK to revive this now it's moved on?
TEC cancelled the order for recovery and now my PCN status says "a representation has previously been made for this case" and the amount has reduced to £50.
It looks like the council are acknowledging their failure to consider my reps when first submitted, so I'd like to ask if it's legit for them to consider them after a procedural impropriety, or should the PCN be cancelled?
Ive had no contact from the council since the original order for payment.
Thanks in advance for any advice 😊
-
Debt is registered with TEC and ive submitted the completed forms by email, and have the autoresponse.
Does anyone know how long its likely to take for a response and should I be watching for an email or a letter?
Thanks again everyone 🙂
-
First check this morning and not registered with TEC yet. I found the easiest way to check was via webchat rather than sitting on the phone.
The link wasn't easy to find, so here it is, in case anyone wants to update the sticky threads or their advice templates etc.
https://www.moneyclaims.service.gov.uk/contact-cnbc
-
Ok, so I've received the CC in the post this morning (strange how this and the NTO both arrived, but no NOR and no ref to an NOR online).
The CC is dated 30/06/2025. Theres no reference to my representations.
So, just to check I have this right, I now need to let the 14 days elapse, then another 7 before I start to check for the debt being registered, then complete and submit the form linked in the other thread, and there's nothing else I need to do until that point?
-
I was just about to say the same.
------
Looks like it's been repainted without the hatching.
Anyway the focus is on resolving process before going back to the alleged contravention, which we'd hope would end up as either £25 discount or nothing.
(https://i.imgur.com/WW1ukKg.jpeg)
-
They can't reissue the PCN and will do one of three things:
Cancel
Reject reoffering the £25 discount
Reject not offering discount
Second is most likely but it's a petty PCN and if they don't want that used as a parking space they need to mark it out of bounds.
I must say that if I visited that car park I would assume that where the OP parked WAS out of bounds. Isn't he parked on hatchings and not in a bay?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.0153139,-1.4175042,3a,60y,244.3h,84.36t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sjhDxdtQd2dKO3bp1qLNFNg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D5.64259806048041%26panoid%3DjhDxdtQd2dKO3bp1qLNFNg%26yaw%3D244.29765504406006!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
No, it's been hatched off in the past but now its an empty space which appears valid to park in
-
They can't reissue the PCN and will do one of three things:
Cancel
Reject reoffering the £25 discount
Reject not offering discount
Second is most likely but it's a petty PCN and if they don't want that used as a parking space they need to mark it out of bounds.
I must say that if I visited that car park I would assume that where the OP parked WAS out of bounds. Isn't he parked on hatchings and not in a bay?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.0153139,-1.4175042,3a,60y,244.3h,84.36t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sjhDxdtQd2dKO3bp1qLNFNg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D5.64259806048041%26panoid%3DjhDxdtQd2dKO3bp1qLNFNg%26yaw%3D244.29765504406006!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
-
Ok mate, sorry if I come across weird. I have autism and I like to try to make everything really clear so I dont misunderstand. Thanks for helping me out.
-
Would doing that help me to establish timeliness and when I should be checking with TEC, or could it highlight a possible failure to issue an NOR and prompt them to rush one out?[NO] Or can they not retrospectively issue an NOR once a CC has been generated?[NO]
With respect, you are overcomplicating matters. You could engage in all sorts of extra-procedural actions e.g. submit a Subject Access Request for copies of all correspondence to you in respect of this PCN etc. But as their website states 'We will aim to resolve your request within one month from the receipt of your request' the CC and OfR could arrive before you get a substantive response.
Bottom line:
likelihood that they've committed a procedural impropriety by not responding to valid formal reps within the 56 day period and therefore gifting you a procedural lifeline: IMO, mighty slim.
likelihood that they might have issued a CC prematurely: slim.
Why not just wait for events to unfold and follow advice regarding keeping your eye on their website for the added £10/phoning TEC?
-
Cheers both.
Do either of you think it's worth me ringing the council parking enforcement dept to ask when/whether they responded to my reps and when/where/how the charge certificate was issued?
Would doing that help me to establish timeliness and when I should be checking with TEC, or could it highlight a possible failure to issue an NOR and prompt them to rush one out? Or can they not retrospectively issue an NOR once a CC has been generated?
I feel like speaking to the council would be useful but I dont want to damage my position when it does come to appeal stage...
-
So should I be calling TEC daily to check whether a debt has been registered?
From
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-notic/
Once the debt has been registered with TEC, the PCN status / history will say so and the amount will increase by £10.
For all other cases, we cannot yet say how reliable the council websites are at showing the £10 increase, so the best approach is to simply call TEC on 0300 123 1059 (first thing in the morning if you want to avoid a long wait) and ask if your PCN has been registered (do not ask anything else, they cannot help you with any other query whatsoever).
If the PCN has not been registered with TEC, put a reminder in your calendar to call again after 7 / 10 days (not longer), repeat the process until the debt has been registered.
-
To be clear:
The council have issued a CC. In itself this is merely a process step and even if you received it would not require you to take action.
The next stage is when, in their desperation, they refer the matter to the 'court' - the Traffic Enforcement Centre- for authority to issue an Order for Recovery. This step costs the council £10 which would be added to the outstanding penalty. You would therefore know when an Order for Recovery has been issued because the amount outstanding increases to £85. An OfR would include a Witness Statement form which you would complete (tick one box and sign)and return to TEC within the period specified citing the grounds: 'made representations to the authority but did not receive a response'. TEC would then revoke the OfR and direct the council to cancel the CC.
The council's options would then be to refer the matter to the adjudicator for their directions or to cancel. In reality, only if they discovered that they had not actually issued a NOR would they cancel. You would be notified by the tribunal what action you should take.
-
Thanks both. Ive read the linked info and from what I understand my next step is to wait for the CC, then make a witness statement as per the process detailed.
I do still have a couple of questions, if thats ok?
If the council have failed to respond to my reps by post, is there any guarantee that I'll receive a charge certificate, and what if I don't?
The procedure for checking that a CC has been issued is covered in
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-notic/
So should I be calling TEC daily to check whether a debt has been registered? Sorry if it seems like I'm asking obvious questions but this isnt a very user friendly process and I have no experience of it at all, so I'm really looking for a clear set of steps/actions to take 🙃
-
Thanks both. Ive read the linked info and from what I understand my next step is to wait for the CC, then make a witness statement as per the process detailed.
I do still have a couple of questions, if thats ok?
If the council have failed to respond to my reps by post, is there any guarantee that I'll receive a charge certificate, and what if I don't?
The procedure for checking that a CC has been issued is covered in
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-notic/
Can't I challenge on the grounds that no response has been received within the statutory 56 days? Why is it presumed that they issued an NOR, rather than there's a potential procedural impropriety.
You cannot challenge anything until the process has been reset.
Thanks again for your help with this 🙏🏼
-
Thanks both. Ive read the linked info and from what I understand my next step is to wait for the CC, then make a witness statement as per the process detailed.
I do still have a couple of questions, if thats ok?
If the council have failed to respond to my reps by post, is there any guarantee that I'll receive a charge certificate, and what if I don't?
Can't I challenge on the grounds that no response has been received within the statutory 56 days? Why is it presumed that they issued an NOR, rather than there's a potential procedural impropriety.
Thanks again for your help with this 🙏🏼
-
Yes.
If you want chapter and verse, feel free to peruse:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/contents
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2022/9780348231564
https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/appeals-process-parking-england/
-
Forget 56 days, it's a distraction: they've issued a CC and therefore presumed to have issued a prior NOR.
So if i dont get the NOR, but i do get the CC, I should have legitimate grounds to appeal?
Read the enforcement process pl: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process
You cannot 'appeal' at present, you have to get back on track. Read the process and then ask any questions.
This says London, does it apply to North Tyneside too?
-
See also
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-notic/
-
Forget 56 days, it's a distraction: they've issued a CC and therefore presumed to have issued a prior NOR.
So if i dont get the NOR, but i do get the CC, I should have legitimate grounds to appeal?
Read the enforcement process pl: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process
You cannot 'appeal' at present, you have to get back on track. Read the process and then ask any questions.
-
So if i dont get the NOR, but i do get the CC, I should have legitimate grounds to appeal?
Tbh, I thought the dates didnt seem to match up as I made reps on the day I received the NTO and there hasn't been enough days for them to bump it up to £75, so I wondered if there mightve been an error in that my reps haven't been logged properly.
Is it worth me waiting till the 56 days expires before querying, so they can't rush out an NOR before the deadline? Or is it enough to challenge based on the fact the charge has gone up on the website without any response from the council?
The NTO was classed as served on 13th May and my reps were in the same day
-
Does anyone have an idea what might have happened?
As per others, they've surcharged the penalty.
But the timings look awry based upon your account although this might be down to very sketchy particulars on their website.
The regs provide:
If the enforcement authority does not accept the representations, its decision notice—
(a)must—
(i)state that a charge certificate may be served on the recipient unless within the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the decision notice—
(aa)the penalty charge is paid, or
(bb)the recipient appeals to an adjudicator against the penalty charge,
(sorry, but nothing to do with re-offered discount or 28 days based on the date of the PCN).
Therefore, for a charge certificate to be issued on 28 June or earlier based upon them having received valid representations their NOR must have been posted no later than 28 May.
But you've 'kept an eye on the PCN page on the council website where there'd been a note saying a representation had been made and the outstanding amount was stated as £50.' and I would have expected this to have said 'representations rejected' or 'NOR' issued or similar since 28 May.
So the NOR ship has sailed and it's not coming, but you might get the CC.
Otherwise you need to check with the council when they issued the CC.
-
That's reassuring, thanks mate 👍🏼
-
There is no possibility whatsoever that your credit rating will be affected.
Presumably you're thinking you might get a CCJ, yes ? Well, the decriminalised parking and traffic legislation was specially written to exclude such a possibility. Of course councils, in their ruthless gaming of the system to their own advantage always threaten the PCN recipient with the county court, but they cannot take anybody to a county court; they must by law register all PCN debts at the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton. This is essentially a county court without any courtrooms or judges.
-
Thanks, both of you.
I've definitely not received anything in the post since the NTO and there's no email in my inbox or junk.
Should I wait and see if a charge certificate arrives before contacting them? I'm worried about this affecting my credit rating if it ends up going too far.
Also, is there a way to prove non receipt of a letter? I'm not sure how I'd be able to prove i didnt receive something by post...
-
Yeah, all details correct and all the other council letters arrive fine. Should they not have emailed me a response or at least a notification? And how can they issue a charge notice? The NTO states that only happens if I dont make reps.
As stamfordman says, it is likely they have sent or emailed you a letter of rejection of your reps. This normally re-offers the discount for a period, and when that expires, if it is over the 28 days allowed for payment on the PCN, they will issue a Charge Certificate. Nothing to stop you asking when/if they sent a rejection to your reps and how (post or email) and state you didn't receive it. They may then cancel the CC but if not, you still have the option available to you at the Order for Recovery stage.
Let us know how you get on. If they are obdurate, we can explain the Witness Statement process.
-
Yeah, all details correct and all the other council letters arrive fine. Should they not have emailed me a response or at least a notification? And how can they issue a charge notice? The NTO states that only happens if I dont make reps.
-
£75 means they've issued a charge certificate probably because they sent a rejection you didn't get.
Is the name and address totally correct on the NTO you did get.
You can get this re-set when they register the debt. See if the CC arrives.
-
Update: I made representations based on no PCN attached when I got to my vehicle, and I've heard nothing since the confirmation email.
I've kept an eye on the PCN page on the council website where there'd been a note saying a representation had been made and the outstanding amount was stated as £50.
When I checked on Saturday 28 June, the note about a representation has gone, case status says open, and amount outstanding has changed to £75.
I'm reluctant to contact them as there's not long until the 56 day response deadline is up, and I'd rather not prompt them to look at it.
Does anyone have an idea what might have happened? As far as I can see, there's no £75 PCN charge associated with parking under North Tyneside Council
-
They can't reissue the PCN and will do one of three things:
Cancel
Reject reoffering the £25 discount
Reject not offering discount
Second is most likely but it's a petty PCN and if they don't want that used as a parking space they need to mark it out of bounds.
(https://i.imgur.com/na2YC9c.jpeg)
-
Link to relevant pics and copy of PCN:
https://imgur.com/a/xZMeHHz
I parked as best as i could in what appeared to be a small but legit marked parking bay (as per the pic), only one of my wheels was outside the lines, due to the uneven shape of the bay and the fact that the car adjacent was parked encroaching into my bay. This was 6 April 2025.
There was no PCN on the car when I got back,so I left and went about my usual business.
This morning I received a NtO regarding a PCN issued on 6 April which stated I had missed the 14 day discount and was liable for a £50 penalty.
I hope that someone can give me some advice around the best way to manage this. I think I have a couple of potential routes...
1. Challenge based on the fact that there was no PCN secured to my vehicle (council pics show "something" under the passenger wiper but it's not clear and wasn't there when I got back to the car, otherwise I'd likely have challenged via route 2...)
2. Challenge based on the fact that the bay i parked in is marked the same as the other bays (no specific vehicle only markings), is an awkward shape to park in, was partially obstructed by the adjacent vehicle, only one wheel of my vehicle was outside of the marked bay, and my vehicle caused no obstruction to other vehicles in the car park, the signage does not clearly state that vehicles must park within the white lines of a single bay just "beyond or outside the marked bays" - I would interpret that as parking outside of the designated parking area.
I've made initial representations on the grounds that I've not had a fair chance to appeal or pay the discounted rate, and hope that at best the PCN is cancelled and at worst it's reissued with the clock started again.
If it's reissued, can anyone tell me how likely it is that I'd be successful lodging an appeal via route 2 above?
Thanks in advance ☺️
Liam