Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: ChocCustardCake on May 09, 2025, 08:29:14 pm
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Anyone?
I tried using this: -
https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/tro
but Waltham Forest have no TROs on the site. It might help if you PM our administrator, because I'm out of my depth here, sorry !
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Anyone?
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Thank you so much for the detailed explanation - Where can I obtain the TRO?
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I'm afraid parking and traffic contraventions enforcement is complex and goes a long way to explain why so many people just cough-up immediately on receiving a PCN, (>95% in fact). Most people have no knowledge of the laws and regulations that govern council enforcement, and assume that councils know it all. This is very, very, far from the truth !
However, your position has lead to doubt even amongst those of us who try to give good advice as you will have seen.
You were served with a PCN for parking off-carriageway, and this has been an offence in London since the 70s, and requires no lines or signs. Yet you were parked directly adjacent to double-yellow lines that mean "No Waiting" (aka parking). So the CEO had a choice of contraventions to use when issuing a PCN. He chose to serve one based on parking off-carriageway, not not one based on parked where not permitted, (the double-yellow lines). YOu might ask why. Well, there are two exemptions to the double-yellow lines, (1) loading/unloading, and (2) boarding/alighting passengers. Your circumstances fit (2). There are no exemptions to off-carriageway parking, apart from a loading requirement needing such parking.
The assumption the CEO made is that the way the road has been resurfaced and "improved", with the double-yellow lines moved, means that the turning point is no longer carriageway, but an off-carriageway part of the road, (a road is everything between the property boundaries each side, incl carriageway, verges and footways).
HCA says the layout shows where you parked is not carriageway, but if that is so, why has the space got bollards round it to mark it off specially ? Why any bollards at all ? My own view is that the turning space remains carriageway for turning purposes, and the council are in error. HCA disagrees with me, and the only way to finally determine the issue is to look at what the TRO says. That is the decider, because the new road layout must be reflected in the TRO. If it is, you lose, if it isn't, you win.
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I am currently feeling quite overwhelmed by the information provided. I came here seeking assistance, but the complexity of the material has made it challenging for me to follow. As this is all new to me, I would greatly appreciate guidance that is broken down in a clear and straightforward manner, as though I were a beginner. I understand that everyone here possesses a great deal of expertise, but thus far, I have primarily felt confused and uncertain about the strength of my appeal. Additionally, the numerous unfamiliar terms have made it difficult to keep up and have required a significant amount of time to understand.
While I recognize and value the effort to help, I believe the process could be made more accessible, especially for individuals who are new to this. I have already spent two days trying to navigate this, and I am still unsure of my position. I do not intend to be critical, but I wanted to offer this feedback regarding my experience and how I am currently feeling. I believe that with clearer communication, the process could be more effective for individuals in my situation.
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What is a TRO
Traffic Regulation Order. All signs must reflect what the TRO says. This includes yellow lines as well as signs.
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What is a TRO
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It seems to me that the TRO needs to be examined to see what it says about this road. Could it be that it has been left unchanged and the old layout is what is in the TRO ?
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I'm just setting out the process.
By all means submit a challenge along the lines of your first post. Personally, on the basis of the known facts conveyed by the on-site indicators I think the contravention is proved.
The authority might mess up procedurally, but this is a risk you(and the registered keeper if not you) takes going forward.
If you use your first post you might need to expand on why your child was dropped off at 11.40.
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I'm confused now.. so I've got no case but I should take it all the way??
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The DYL are clear as are 24/7 no loading markings;
The kerbstones are the same before and after i.e. it's not a footway lowered to meet the carriageway.
What indicators are there that this is part of the carriageway?
OP, remember that as you were parked you were also in contravention of the DYL and no loading restriction...as were the other vehicles in your photos. But the CEO chose 'parking in a road other than on a carriageway'.
But you're free to challenge at this stage, thence the registered keeper ultimately to adjudication.
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Ok sure,
I'll take a few photos at lunchtime today
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We need contemporaneous facts in the form of current photos pl, not your assertions.
We need to see the carriageway and entrance to the area. Probably standing on the pavement on the opposite side of the carriageway would give a good wide-angle view. We need to see exactly where the DYL are placed, whether the kerbstones are flush with the surface both before, across and after the 'access' and all other contextual aspects e.g. is the surface treatment of where you were parked the same as that of the carriageway at the point where they join etc.
IMO, on the face of it:
You were parked on a road;
You were not parked on the carriageway, the boundary of which was marked by DYL.
IMO, you have to show that (notwithstanding the DYL) either it was part of the carriageway(which would be a statutory defence) or that based upon your previous knowledge and the indicators at the location it appeared to be or treated as being part of the carriageway.
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The Google Street View I shared in my initial post is the same as it is today so apologies I'm not sure I'm following what you require here?
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Current photos of that area?
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Pl understand the distinction between 'road' and 'carriageway'.
It is a road.
The question is whether where you were is also considered to be a carriageway.
By law, DYL must be placed 'at the edge of the carriageway'. Therefore, as GSV suggests that these are now parallel to the centre-line of the main carriageway AND that you drove beyond these to park then you were not parked on the carriageway.
We need current photos pl showing the context.
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Hi Both,
It's definitely used as a turning point for many cars and they do this regularly!
Is the dispute between you both that the bollards don't necessarily mean that the section between the bollards and the double yellow likes is not a road?
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What is a 'public turnround point'?
Latest GSV shows the DYL are placed at the edge of the carriageway - they used to diverge from the carriageway but have now been deliberately placed parallel to the centre-line and compatible kerbstones have been installed* therefore IMO what's beyond them isn't carriageway as regards traffic signs regs definitions.
The public clearly have unfettered access to walk across this area, therefore it's part of a road.
The gate existed even in the previous configuration but there wasn't a crossover(the footway wasn't lowered), to all intents and purposes it was just a pedestrian access to somewhere.
*- these are set flush with the surface of the carriageway(which would normally indicate a crossover, but so are those before and after therefore this isn't out of the ordinary as regards the present layout for this part of the road.
OP, clearer contextual photos pl.
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Received a parking ticket in this location but it's part of a road
Exactly, therefore on the face of it the contravention occurred.
Unless you have got or can get photos to set a different context, you were parked on a road but not on the carriageway. Tne DYL are placed at the edge of the carriageway and you were beyond these. In previous years GSV showed the DYL in a different setting meaning that at that time where you were was considered to be part of the carriageway.
But now?
But how can it be off-carriageway, (the PCN) if it is a public turnround point ? This means it is carriageway and the PCN is invalid. If it was for parking by double-yellow lines, then the CEO would have correctly served a PCN.
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Received a parking ticket in this location but it's part of a road
Exactly, therefore on the face of it the contravention occurred.
Unless you have got or can get photos to set a different context, you were parked on a road but not on the carriageway. Tne DYL are placed at the edge of the carriageway and you were beyond these. In previous years GSV showed the DYL in a different setting meaning that at that time where you were was considered to be part of the carriageway.
But now?
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Hi is anyone able to review please?
Thanks
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Is the below ok please?
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to formally challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice issued for alleged contravention code 624, which refers to parking on an area other than the carriageway (e.g., verge, footway, or central reservation).
I respectfully submit that the location where my vehicle was parked cannot reasonably be considered as "off-carriageway" for the following reasons:
1. Nature and Purpose of the Area in Question
The space where my vehicle was parked appears, at first glance, to be a driveway serving commercial premises. However, it is important to note that these premises are fully secured by a fence and only accessible via a pedestrian gate—there is no vehicle gate, nor any vehicle access provided or possible.
Moreover, the presence of large wooden bollards clearly indicates the council's intention to separate vehicular movement from pedestrian areas. The space in question is physically designed to manage vehicle access and maneuvering, not as pedestrian space or footway.
2. Use as a Turning Area for Motor Vehicles
The end of the street in question is fully blocked by fixed bollards, leaving no alternative space for vehicles to turn around other than the area where my vehicle was parked. This area is used daily by an average of 20 vehicles as a turn-round point—a fact I am able to evidence with dated photographic and video proof, which I can supply if required.
Historically, Google Street View imagery from 2022 also shows this area as a turn-round point, which remained unchanged until the council undertook cosmetic improvements post-2022. Despite these visual enhancements, the function of this space remains that of vehicle maneuvering, which is reinforced by the layout and physical features of the area.
3. Misclassification as Off-Carriageway Parking
Given the above facts, it is clear that this area serves the purpose of a carriageway. The existence of bollards, the historic and continuous use of the space for vehicle turning, and the absence of any physical signage or road markings indicating that this is a restricted pedestrian-only space all support that conclusion.
Therefore, the contravention of parking off the carriageway cannot reasonably apply in this instance as the space, by function and design, is part of the carriageway, specifically serving as a turning point.
Conclusion
In light of the evidence and context provided, I respectfully request the cancellation of this PCN as the alleged contravention did not occur. Should you require additional proof (including videos or logs of daily vehicle usage), I am happy to provide this upon request.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Yours faithfully,
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Really appreciate the detailed explanation 👍 thank you so much.
Will create the reps and would really appreciate if you can review once I do to ensure I haven't missed anything.
Thanks
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The council claim this is off-carriageway parking.
Currently, where you parked seems on first glance to be a driveway to access commercial premises that passes across the footway. But no vehicles can access those premises because there is a fence with a pedestrians gate. There is no gate for vehicles. So why is there this large space ? If it is not carriageway, what is the purpose of the large wooden bollards ? Clearly these are intended to separate vehicles from pedestrians.
It is quite clear that the space is a turn-round, because if one drives virtually down the street one finds that it is blocked by bollards, and there is no space for any vehicle to turn round at all apart from the private parking space for the flats at the end of the street.
In fact GSV of 2022 shows this was a turn-round point for motor vehicles. Later, some time after 2022, the council "prettied-up" the street but the purpose of that space remains as the bollards show. This means it is carriageway, therefore the contravention of being parked off-carriageway did not occur. Of course the CEO could have served you a PCN for parking opposite the double-yellow lines but didn't, no doubt because he has been told not to, because there are exemptions for these, like assisted boarding/alighting which you did.
That's my take on it, anyway.
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Thanks for the reply
Do you mind elaborating a little on the below as I don't understand it
"State that this isn't a driveway into premises as can be see by the fence only having a pedestrian gate"
If you look at the picture, there's only a pedestrian gate in the fence at the end of the 'road', so the access is only for people and not vehicles.
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Hi
Please do let me know and I'll update the reps I'm drafting?
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Thanks for the reply
Do you mind elaborating a little on the below as I don't understand it
"State that this isn't a driveway into premises as can be see by the fence only having a pedestrian gate"
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Submit reps stating the contravention did not occur, and that where you parked is carriageway and enclose a copy of the GSV 2022 view. State that this isn't a driveway into premises as can be see by the fence only having a pedestrian gate. The GSV view clearl shows that this was a turning point for vehicles, and continues in that role, despite the new paving. In addition, the pedestrian entrance to the premises is also seen in GSV 2022 view.
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Hi
Thanks for the reply. Apologies but I don't understand whether it means it's worth appealing and on what grounds?
Appreciate any guidance
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The council pics don't show the context is my feeling.
(https://i.ibb.co/prGLzZyX/Screenshot-2025-05-10-at-23-28-58.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/rKS17G2k/Screenshot-2025-05-10-at-23-28-47.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/Gv19zNKD/Screenshot-2025-05-10-at-23-28-41.png)
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Yes it definitely is used for vehicles to turn around.
Thanks I'll wait for more assistance
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OK, so the council photos show you were parked in what seems to be the driveway/access point for premises, and not on the carriageway which is marked by the grey paving line and the double-yellow lines. So it seems the contravention is made out. Parking off-carriagway has been an offence in London since the 70s, and needs no signs or lines.
HOwever, a look at the latest GSV view, shows this is carriageway with double-yellow lines going all round the kerb edge and seems to be there for vehicles needing to turn round. If this is so, it may well be that what is there now is still carriageway, so worth submitting representations on those lines. Others may comment, so wait a bit, but don't miss the pay or appeal deadline on the PCN.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YSsdGcACYKHa7dpA7
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No worries at all - attached again as requested.
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Yes, saw that, but where was the car parked exactly ? This is very important.
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No, I really do appreciate the help - In my initial post I did include a GSV link to the exact spot.
Let me know if you can't see it?
Thanks
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Sorry, but we need your registration number of the vehicle. Without it we can't see the council photos. You might also post a GSV link and tell us exactly where you parked.
Sorry to be a PITA, but getting all the ducks in a row is key to successful appeals.
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Wanted to add that I was dropping child off to school and I am a disabled person and there was no other parking on that road available. I had 2 options... wait for a parking spot to become available and risk child being late or find parking at the start of the road which would have been too far for me to walk given my disability also risking child getting late
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Please see attached
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Post the PCN with no redactions.
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Hi all, me again! got tickets coming out of my backside
Just wanted your advice
https://maps.app.goo.gl/KdWCSjhmUV3PovQr7
Received a parking ticket in this location but it's part of a road - is there any grounds to appeal this?