Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: pharmchick on May 01, 2025, 11:18:07 pm

Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: DWMB2 on July 24, 2025, 09:16:11 am
Can you please share the assessor comments?
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: pharmchick on July 24, 2025, 02:21:30 am
Hi all, just wanted to give you a quick update: POPLA appeal has been succesful based on the point that the bay markings were not clear enough. Thank you all very much for the guidance and encouragement. You all rock! These Parkingeye b.....rds don't deserve a penny, please keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: pharmchick on May 06, 2025, 04:49:39 pm
They HC, I was not there at that time (13:34). I arrived at 12 and left just before 1pm which is why I paid £1 for parking. The ticket machine (pay on exit) did not have paper for receipts but I paid by contactless card and the entry is clearly marked on my bank statement for that day in question. If I had stayed until 13:34 as they claim, my fee would have been £2 or so £1 is for stays up to 1 hour. The time is therefore wrong, or falsified at best. What are your thoughts? If I was to tell them to provide me with photographs that have exact time stamps they would not be able to provide this legitimately.
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: H C Andersen on May 05, 2025, 08:49:46 pm
Back to the substance pl.

The Notice to Keeper states:

(your vehicle) 'was observed at 13.34 breaching the terms..'

Their rejection repeats the above.

You say: 'One discrepancy that I also noticed on the ticket is that it stated the event time as 13:34 meanwhile I was no longer at the hospital at that time because I paid for only 1 hour of parking (pay on exit) meaning I would have left at 1pm.'

'Would have' left or had left?

Where is your evidence i.e. your record of payment with parking rights expiring at ..... [ before 13.34]??

Their NTK photos are timed at 12.03, 90 minutes before the alleged breach!

Can we get to grips with this 'discrepancy' please.
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: pharmchick on May 05, 2025, 07:20:56 pm
Thanks all! I will keep you all updated on the outcome for future learning for others.
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: b789 on May 04, 2025, 11:36:42 am
A Parking Charge Notice (PCN) is just a term used to say that a "ticket" has been issued. What is important is how the PCN is issued. It can reissued either as a Notice to Driver (NtD) which is stuck on the windscreen or it can be issued as a postal Notice to Keeper (NtK).

The point is that you received an NtK and subsequently identified yourself, the Keeper, as the driver, when there is no legal obligation to do so. Until you identified as the driver, they had no idea who was driving, only that you are the registered keeper.

The driver is always liable for any charge. However, if the NtK is fully compliant with PoFA, they can shift the liability from the unknown driver to the known Keeper. If the NtK is not fully compliant with all the requirements of PoFA, and this one isn't, even if they pretend it is, then they cannot hold the Keeper liable. They are not allowed to presume or infer that the Keeper must also have been the driver.

So, this is why you should never identify the driver if you receive an NtK. The Keeper only needs to refer to the driver in the third person.

As you have identified as the driver, it matters not that you are the Keeper. They will hold you liable for the charge.

When they rejected the appeal, the provided a POPLA code which you can use to appeal to a supposedly "independent" appeals service, but that is not strictly true, as POPLA are funded by the very same companies that are trying to pursue you for the charge in the first place.

The POPLA code is valid for 33 days from the date of the appeal rejection. POPLA will not consider any mitigation. They only assess whether the PCN has been issued correctly. So, if you can persuade the POPLA assessor that the operator has failed to comply with any aspect of the law of the PPSCoP, then the PCN has been issued incorrectly.

In your case, you have to try and persuade the assessor that ParkingEye have issued the NtK incorrectly because an NtK cannot be issued the same day as the parking event. Also, you can appeal other points too, such as poor or missing signage, incorrect wording on the NtK or missing periods pf parking being noted.

In your case, there is no evidence that the vehicle was parked for longer than the minimum consideration period (5 minutes). The driver could simply have parked, gone to seek out a sign with the terms and conditions on it, read those terms and conditions and decided not to accept them and left. No contract could have been formed and this is simply a dispute over a contractual matter.

Whilst it is a weak argument in your case because you have already blabbed about why you were there and for how long, it could still be argued that without evidencing a "period of parking", it cannot be proved that a contract was formed with the driver.

It's a technicality, but a useful one, as long as you don't go throwing away all your cards by giving the operator all the evidence they need to hold you liable.

Have a search of the forum for other POPLA appeals to see how they are laid out and argued.
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: pharmchick on May 03, 2025, 11:22:53 pm
So just to clarify, would the pcn need to have been issued the day after the event (and not on the event) at the earliest as d789 explained? They were only ever able to issue a notice to the keeper because they sent the pcn via post (so couldn’t be a notice to the driver). Please correct me if I am wrong
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: DWMB2 on May 03, 2025, 10:17:10 pm
The points are entirely valid, but with an identified driver, not necessarily a silver bullet. Making a big noise with PALS is very much worthwhile, and likewise ParkingEye as advised. They may not wish for any poor practice to come under too much scrutiny, so making a fuss may get you put in the "too much hassle" pile by ParkingEye and make them give up. Certainly worth a go.

Re. the point around KADOE data not being issued the same day, this is usually confirmed by DVLA themselves in responses to Subject Access Requests. A recent one I submitted contained the following about releases:

"As these requests were made electronically they would have generated automatic responses, which would have been sent to the company the following working day."

You may wish to send a Subject Access Request to DVLA yourself, so that you have a copy of when ParkingEye requested your details, and similar confirmation that the data would have reached ParkingEye the following working day. You can do so here: Make a subject access request to DVLA (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/make-a-subject-access-request-to-dvla)
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: pharmchick on May 03, 2025, 10:09:24 pm
See attached; the letter was dated 23 April. Are you saying d789’s points are invalid?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: H C Andersen on May 03, 2025, 09:28:56 pm
You have acknowledged that you were the driver.

The NTK only has relevance if they intend to exercise their right to hold the keeper liable.

But they don't, they may hold you liable as driver.

The NTK has no relevance after any period to 'appeal' to POPLA has expired..

...and this was when? You have not posted their rejection.

As regards the Parking Charge Notice and dates, it's the typical nonsense we see.

There is NO such beast as a Parking Charge Notice in legislation or under any Code of Practice. It is PURELY a creation of the industry whereby the acronym - PCN - is the same as that in the regulated (local authority) sector, namely Penalty Charge Notice. In your case, the only regulatory notice is a Notice to Keeper. And its purpose is to advise you of the parking charge incurred by the driver, invite you to pay, give you the opportunity to appeal or give the creditor the driver's details and notify you that subject to conditions they may hold you liable as keeper for the charge in default.

In your case, the penalty charge was incurred on 28 March which is when the breach occurred and the NOTICE was issued on 2 April, served on 4th which is within any 14-day period.

Of course you may rattle cages with extra-procedural correspondence, but essentially you're stuck with whatever position you're in as driver.

But we don't know because we haven't seen their rejection of your 'appeal'.

Pl post.

Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: pharmchick on May 03, 2025, 04:31:24 pm
Thanks a lot! I am writing the letter now as we speak. I will update as soon as I have received a response.
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: b789 on May 03, 2025, 04:25:03 pm
You don't need to send a letter "recorded" delivery. Under the Interpretation Act, a letter that is sent by first class post is deemed delivered after two working days. Just go to any post office and request a free proof of posting" certificate.
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: pharmchick on May 03, 2025, 02:30:38 pm
Understood now, thanks! Parkingeye do not seem to have an email address but I managed to find one via an online forum: enforcement@parkingeye.co.uk
I will use this email and also send a recorded letter to Parkingeye (just in case the email isn't working) as well as copy the hospital too.
Is there a mandatory timeframe for the company (Parkingeye/hospital) to respond to accusations of data breaches? I just read on the ICO the following: "Part 3 of the DPA 2018 introduces a duty on all organisations to report certain types of personal data breach to the Information Commissioner. You must do this within 72 hours of becoming aware of the breach, where feasible." I am wondering if this can be somehow used to force them to abandon ship...
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: b789 on May 03, 2025, 01:56:40 pm
1. PoFA Technical Breach – Relevant Period Starts the Day After the Contravention

PoFA Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(5) defines the “relevant period” for delivering a Notice to Keeper as (my emphasis):

"the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended."

This is not optional or ambiguous — the Act says the 14-day countdown starts the day after the contravention date, not on it.

Therefore, if an NtK is issued on the same date as the alleged contravention, then by definition:

• The operator has commenced the relevant period prematurely, in breach of the timing requirements under PoFA.

Even though the NtK was eventually delivered within 14 days, the issue date being within the contravention date is legally incorrect, and it demonstrates non-compliance with the statutory framework the operator claims to follow.

2. Procedural Impossibility – DVLA Data Cannot Be Received the Same Day

Regardless of PoFA, it's a fact that:

• DVLA KADOE data requests cannot return keeper information in real-time,
• Parking operators are only permitted to request keeper data after the contravention has occurred,
• Data requests are processed in overnight or scheduled batches, and responses are not immediate.

Therefore, if the NtK was dated and issued on 28/03/2025, the same date as the alleged breach:

• ParkingEye could not lawfully have obtained the DVLA data on that date,
• Which makes it impossible for them to have prepared and issued a compliant NtK that same day.

So, this isn't about whether the NtK was delivered within 14 days — it was.

It's about the fact that:

• PoFA requires the notice to be issued no earlier than the day after the contravention date.
• ParkingEye could not lawfully or practically issue a same-day NtK due to DVLA access restrictions.

This is both a technical breach of statute and a likely breach of DVLA contractual and data protection rules.
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: pharmchick on May 03, 2025, 12:52:47 pm
wow, I am so impressed by your knowledge b789! So that basically means there is no way they issue date can be the same as the date of the event in cases where the notice was sent via post to the keeper - is that my correct understanding? In terms of GDPR, is the potential breach based on the fact that they are meant to only access your data on the day they issue the ticket (and not before) so in this case that cannot be the 28th of March as they claim? Sorry if I am asking silly question but I really want to understand the legal basis.
Btw, my appeal rejection was received about a week ago, so I am still in time to submit a POPLA case but I wanted to hear from this group first as to what the next best course of action would be.
I am not sure if I mentioned it before but even the timing of the event stated is false because my appointment was at 12:00 and we were done within less than an hour, therefore by 13:34 we were not on site anymore.
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: b789 on May 03, 2025, 10:20:32 am
What is the date of the ParkingEye appeal rejection? That letter has a POPLA code which is valid for 33 days from the date of the appeal rejection.

Go back and tell PALS that they are morons by suggesting that you should appeal to POPLA with mitigating circumstances as this just highlights their utter incompetence because POPLA does not and cannot take mitigation into account, only breaches of the law or the PPSCoP to cancel a PCN.

As you have confirmed that the PCN was only issued as a Notice to Keeper (NtK), there is a serious issue with the fact that the date of the alleged contravention and the issue date of the NtK are the same.

In the meantime, I suggest you send the following to ParkingEye and CC in PALS@ulh.nhs.uk and yourself:

Quote
Subject: Formal Complaint and Request for Explanation – NtK Issue Date Same as Contravention Date (28/03/2025)

Dear ParkingEye,

I write in relation to the Parking Charge Notice issued against my vehicle in connection with an alleged contravention at Lincoln County Hospital on 28/03/2025. The Notice to Keeper I received is dated the same day: 28/03/2025.

I am requesting a formal explanation for how your company was able to issue and post a Notice to Keeper on the same date as the alleged event, given that:

• The contravention occurred on 28/03/2025;
• There was no Notice to Driver issued on the vehicle;
• Therefore, a DVLA keeper request was necessary;

Yet DVLA KADOE responses are not returned instantly and cannot lawfully be requested or used before the date of the alleged event has even concluded.

Please confirm:

• The exact date and time that ParkingEye submitted the keeper request to the DVLA;
• The exact date and time that ParkingEye received the keeper details;
• The method, date and proof of posting of the NtK;
• Whether the issue date of 28/03/2025 printed on the NtK is in fact accurate;
• If not, why a false date was printed.

Given that DVLA’s KADOE system does not provide data in real time, it appears ParkingEye may have either:

• Falsified the issue date; or
• Accessed personal data before the date the alleged event had concluded, which would lack a lawful basis and contravene both your KADOE contract and UK GDPR Article 5(1)(a).

This matter is being considered for escalation to both the DVLA and the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) depending on your response. Please reply within 14 days.

Yours faithfully,

[Your Full Name]
[Your Address]
PCN Reference: [Insert PCN Number]
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: pharmchick on May 02, 2025, 09:22:34 pm
There was a massive potpole on the front right which you can see on the second picture, that was also a contributory factor in how I ended up parking.
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: pharmchick on May 02, 2025, 09:17:07 pm
The notice was sent out by post and I received it in the mail on the 7th of April. The date of event was indeed the 28th of March. It definitely was not issued on the day. Please explain how this would help in fighting these b@stards?
I also attach the pcictures that they uploaded onto their portal as evidence.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: b789 on May 02, 2025, 03:32:47 pm
You don't pay ParkingEye. First you escalate your complaint to the Trust CEO. The Trust can get ParkingEye to cancel it if they want. Parking Eye are contracted by the Trust. Who is the Monkey and who is the Organ Grinder in their contractual relationship?

There is another possible issue... the Notice to Keeper (NtK) says that the date of the alleged contravention was on 28/03/2025 and that the notice was issued the same date. Can you confirm that the PCN was issued as a postal Notice to Keeper (NtK) or as a windscreen Notice to Driver (NtD)?
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: Dave65 on May 02, 2025, 03:26:13 pm
What a case of sloping shoulders by PALS.
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: pharmchick on May 02, 2025, 02:41:03 pm
I am so upset that I didn't know about this group earlier! I sadly have idetified myself as the driver i.e. the parent taking her children to the hospital. Is it a lost case?
Here is the response from PALS:
"As indicated I went back to our facilities team to ask about your parking charge.  They have investigated and have come back to me with the following reply:-


Thank you for your email regarding the parking charge issued when you visited Lincoln hospital and for your explanation of the circumstances.


The parking charge was issued, as you have admitted, for the vehicle being parked out of a bay, which unfortunately and in consequence, has the knock on effect of reducing the number of available spaces for other service users.


The Trust has a limited number of spaces and parking out of a bay is classed as a contravention of the Trust’s parking regulations, details of which are clearly displayed on signage throughout the car parks. Parking Eye are contracted by the Trust to ensure its parking regulations are met.

If a parking charge is issued and the motorist feels it has been issued incorrectly, the opportunity for appeal is with Parking Eye in the first instance. If the charge is upheld, but the motorist has evidence of mitigating circumstances, then a further appeal should be submitted to POPLA, where an independent decision will be made on the evidence provided. As such, the Trust is unable to intervene until your options for appeal have been exhausted.

Please be assured that all parking spaces provided by the Trust, on its private land, are compliant with the British Parking Association’s regulations. However, your comments regarding provision of specific parent and child spaces are welcomed and as such an assessment of dedicated spaces in all its car parks will be conducted.

As they have indicated you will need to appeal to POPLA if you have evidence of mitigating circumstances.

I hope that this information helps and am sorry that we are unable to intervene"

 
Title: Re: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: b789 on May 02, 2025, 02:14:07 pm
Oh dear... what a pity you hadn't come here before you appealed. I'm going to assume that you, the Keeper who received the notice, identified as the driver. If you didn't, then good.

That Notice to Keeper (NtK) is not fully compliant with PoFA paragraphs 9(2)(a) and 9(2)(e)(i). Therefore, as long as the driver is not identified, they cannot transfer liability from the unknown (to ParkingEye) driver to the known Keeper as there is no legal obligation on the known Keeper to identify the unknown driver to an unregulated private parking company.

A Keeper should only ever refer to the driver in the third person. No "I did this or that". Only "the driver did this or that".

PALS are trying to fob you off. I suggest you make a formal complaint about this to the Chief Executive of the NHS Trust and get their explanation why PALS do not appear to be following the guidance in this document:

NHS car parking guidance 2022 for NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles#:~:text=Parents%20of%20sick%20children%20staying,am%20while%20visiting%20the%20child.)

Having established that, has the driver been identified?
Title: Hospital car park PCN - child's outpatient appointment
Post by: pharmchick on May 01, 2025, 11:18:07 pm
Hi all! I took my young daughter to an out patient appointment to Lincoln County Hospital and we received a PCN saying we "did not park within a bay". The bay we parked in had faded lines on the left and a solid line to the right. My car is a 4x4 and hence bigger than a standard car, I also have 2 children who need enough space to come out of the car in order not to damage the next car when opening the door. One of my daughters has a medical condition in one of her foot meaning she can find it difficult to manoever her foot so she needs even more room to come out of the car. Moreover, I have a chronic back condition (osteoarthritis) meaning I myself need sufficient space to come out safely. I parked in good faith don't believe this is a fair parking charge. I appealed and complained to PALS and they said: "Thank you for the additional information – I have liaised with my colleagues in the facilities team who have confirmed that you would need to appeal due the car being parked outside the lines. I am sorry but we would be unable to help further." After pressurising them further, they wrote the following: "PALS are not able to support any parking fines- we are advised to ask the motorist to appeal. I would suggest waiting to hear from the appeals team first – as this may be cancelled. If you do wish to raise this further – although the information may be the same the complaints team email xxx.

One discrepancy that I also noticed on the ticket is that it stated the event time as 13:34 meanwhile I was no longer at the hospital at that time because I paid for only 1 hour of parking (pay on exit) meaning I would have left at 1pm.
Parkingeye have rejected my appeal without addressing any of my points (they just sent a generic response letter).I have gone back to the hospital and complained saying that they the fact they do not provide bigger bays for people with mobility issues or small children put this group at disadvantage by being more likely to receive fines - this is discriminatory. The hospital complaint team insist that I must now appeal with POPLA and though they admitted that they will conduct an assessment to see the impact of not having child and parent bays on patients, they are still unwilling to cancel the charge saying that by not having parked in a bay I deprived others from parking space. This is not true as from their pictures, only my right tyre was slightly out of the bay not the entire car and there was enough space for another car to park next to me.
Shall I just give up and pay or is it worth fighting?

[attachment deleted by admin]