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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: poorthing on April 30, 2025, 08:16:58 pm

Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: poorthing on May 09, 2025, 11:41:33 am

Thanks HC Anderson and Stamford Man.  Have not yet sent so will expand / redraft and send.  Thanks a lot everyone.
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: stamfordman on May 09, 2025, 11:06:39 am
Yes - I would state that relatives and you were led to reasonably believe the parking by the entrance* to their particular house on the estate was covered by their permit and the signage in its present state did not reasonably show otherwise.

*or front
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: H C Andersen on May 09, 2025, 11:00:44 am
I would have expanded, but if it's been sent then so be it.

My take.

I would set the scene clearly.

I parked and displayed a permit provided to me by relatives who live at ****. They understood that parking at the location was permitted. I noticed the sign but it was so defaced that I wasn't able to determine that it stated anything different to what I had been told. I now know that my relatives were incorrect.

The location sits within a parking place which is situated in Austin Road and extends from its junction with Charlotte Despard Avenue to Astle Street where it terminates at Henley Street. The council have placed three traffic signs, each on a lamp column numbered respectively 008,009 and 010. The distance between lamp columns 008 and 010 is approx. 60m. The CEO has submitted a single photo of a traffic sign, in this case on lamp column 010.

The CEO's photos also show my car parked adjacent to lamp column 008 which begs the question, why? Why did the CEO walk 120m from my car to lamp column 010 and back when they could have photographed the traffic sign on lamp column 008 or even 009?

The answer is in my enclosed photos which show that these signs have been so defaced that they are unreadable. Therefore the CEO had to go to the furthest sign in order to produce, in their mind, a photo with any evidential value. It therefore follows that in order for the PCN to withstand scrutiny the council believe that the driver was similarly obliged to traipse past not one but two traffic signs in the hope (but not necessarily expectation) of finding one which was readable. The council will be aware that there are numerous adverse adjudication decisions based upon this point.

While I sympathise with the council in that they have to bear the cost and inconvenience of making repairs to these traffic signs, this cannot be visited on unfortunate motorists and the PCN should be cancelled.
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: poorthing on May 09, 2025, 09:59:38 am

Many thanks cp8759 for drafting and Stamford man.  Will keep you posted. Thanks.
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: cp8759 on May 09, 2025, 12:11:50 am
You cannot lie or mislead, but you are not required to incriminate yourself either. Here's what I would suggest:

Dear London Borough of Wandsworth,

This representation is based on inadequate signage, owing to the defaced signage adjacent to the parking bay. 

I was visiting my elderly parents who live in Atkinson House and parked on Austin Road in front of Atkinson House, and I displayed the parking permit provided to my parents for visitors to park. (See attached permit).

As you can see from my attached photograph the pole (008) where I was parked the sign was defaced and not clearly visible.  I have also attached a copy of the adjoining pole (009) where the sign is also defaced.  I was therefore not aware that the permit could not be used where I had parked as both the signs on that side of Austin Road were defaced.

The evidence provided by Wandsworth Council traffic warden is that of a clear sign which is on another road round the corner of Austin Road (Astle Street) and not on Austin Road where I parked my car.  The pole photographed by the Traffic Warden is the pole on Astle street and is clearly numbered as 010.  If you zoom in on some of the evidence photographs provided by Wandsworth Council one can see the defaced signs in the distance.

The contravention therefore did not occur as the bay where the vehicle was parked was not properly signed, it follows that the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Take a timed / dated screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: stamfordman on May 08, 2025, 02:19:34 pm
I would be less confrontational and focus on the proximity to the estate you were visiting and that the defaced signs did not indicate the estate permit was not valid there.
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: poorthing on May 08, 2025, 01:47:21 pm
Dear Wandsworth Council,

Re: Appeal for PCN WA

My appeal is focussed on the defaced signage of the signs where I parked.

I was visiting my elderly parents who live in Atkinson House and parked on Austin Road in front of Atkinson House and displayed the Housing parking permit provided to my parents for visitors to park. (See attached housing permit photograph).

As you can see from my attached photograph the pole (008) where I was parked the sign was defaced and not clearly visible.  I have also attached a copy of the adjoining pole (009) where the sign is also defaced.  I was therefore not aware that the housing permit could not be used where I had parked as both the signs on that side of Austin Road were defaced.

The evidence provided by Wandsworth Council traffic warden is that of a clear sign which is on another road round the corner of Austin Road (Astle Street) and not on Austin Road where I parked my car.  The pole photographed by the Traffic Warden is the pole on Astle street and is clearly numbered as 010.  If you zoom in on some of the evidence photographs provided by Wandsworth Council one can see the defaced signs in the distance.
 
The contravention therefore did not occur as the bay where the vehicle was parked was not properly signed. The signage in the bay I parked and the adjoining bay are defaced and has therefore makes it’s provisions illegible.  It is not clear or complaint and therefore in these circumstances no contravention occurred.

The onus is on the Council to ensure the sign is not defaced this is contained within regulation 18 of the ‘The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 –
Which states:
18.— (1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—
(a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;
(b)the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force; and
(c)in a case where the order revokes, amends or alters the application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong positions.

In conclusion, The contravention did not occur.  The PCN is therefore invalid and should not have been issued due to the defaced signage.

Please cancel the PCN.
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: poorthing on May 08, 2025, 01:36:33 pm
I will attach some photographs as evidence with all the pole numbers and a photo of the housing permit.  Do you think that would be okay?
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: poorthing on May 08, 2025, 01:35:29 pm
Thanks this is what I have drafted, do you think its alright?  Thanks.
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: stamfordman on May 06, 2025, 01:46:35 pm
The 009 pic suggests a pay bay so not that helpful for a permit but does support defacement.

I'd be inclined to go on with this - at least you'll probably end up with another rejection reoffering the discount.   
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: poorthing on May 06, 2025, 11:57:35 am
Hi,

I returned and clicked the photos requested of the signs adjacent to the one where I got a ticket.

I got the ticket at pole numbered 008 (as seen in previous uploaded picture).  The pole adjacent on Austin road on my side( numbered pole 009) the sign is also defaced. So both the signs are defaced on the side I parked on.  See attached photo link

(https://i.imgur.com/5drHLra.jpeg)

However, on the opposite side of the road, there is a sign which is clear.  See attached:

(https://i.imgur.com/Cr2S9S9.jpeg)

The evidence the traffic warden provided is of the sign on the adjacent road  ( Astle road - pole 010)

There is a parking meter on the road about 10 meters from where I had parked, opposite the Battersea Fields Practice GP surgery.

Please let me know if there is any basis to appeal.  Thanks.


Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: H C Andersen on May 02, 2025, 04:43:16 pm
My thinking is that the parking ticket should correspond to the traffic sign that indicates the parking restriction.  As the sign is defaced/not clear - Could I not appeal on the basis that the sign is not in accordance with the Traffic Regulation Order and so the PCN is invalid? Also the authority's evidence of the sign is from (Astle Street), while the road stated on my PCN is Austin Road. The traffic warden intentionally did not take a photograph of the sign near my car as it was defaced.

Of course you can challenge on the grounds of the above, but get your evidential ducks in a row first. Normal practice - but not law- for authorities is to re-offer the discount if reps are made within 14 days of service, in your case 11 May. Wandsworth do not include this in their PCN, but none the less may well do.

Each case turns on its own facts. Your bay was shared use.

However, the contravention description does not reflect this.

IMO, the description renders the PCN unenforceable, but because of the thread title and first post we've been steered into a direction of your choice!

So, to complete the picture pl obtain photos of all traffic signs in the parking place - there are 3 according to GSV- and where the elusive payment machines are located(on your side of the road).
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: poorthing on May 02, 2025, 08:36:19 am
Quote from: H C Andersen on May 01, 2025, 04:15:20 pm
OP, look at the reverse of the permit and you should see its usage terms and conditions.

On the subject of signs, look at the authority's photo evidence. You'll see a traffic sign which is clear..

..but GSV shows it's clearly not yours or even the next one, but the next.

Why, I wonder?

Can your relatives take photos of these signs pl.


===========================================

@ H C Anderson - yes, The authority's evidence photo - is taken from ( Astle street).  I think because the sign where I parked was defaced the traffic warden never put a picture of the defaced sign, he went to the other end of road (Astle street) and took a picture of that sign which was nowhere near my car.  This was why I was hoping there was someway to appeal it.  Will have to visit on the weekend and take more photos of signs myself.

My thinking is that the parking ticket should correspond to the traffic sign that indicates the parking restriction.  As the sign is defaced/not clear - Could I not appeal on the basis that the sign is not in accordance with the Traffic Regulation Order and so the PCN is invalid? Also the authority's evidence of the sign is from (Astle Street), while the road stated on my PCN is Austin Road. The traffic warden intentionally did not take a photograph of the sign near my car as it was defaced.
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: poorthing on May 02, 2025, 08:26:12 am

Image of the conditions of the permit:

(https://i.imgur.com/JTciw45.jpeg)

I accept that the car was parked in the wrong permit holder zone. 

However trying to see if it can be appealed on the basis of the defaced sign.
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: H C Andersen on May 01, 2025, 04:15:20 pm
OP, look at the reverse of the permit and you should see its usage terms and conditions.

On the subject of signs, look at the authority's photo evidence. You'll see a traffic sign which is clear..

..but GSV shows it's clearly not yours or even the next one, but the next.

Why, I wonder?

Can your relatives take photos of these signs pl.
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: Incandescent on May 01, 2025, 12:36:04 pm
Quote from: poorthing on May 01, 2025, 12:01:53 pm
@ Incandescent - Can I ask please- does the parking permit specifically have to have the exact code displayed on the Parking sign.

The Housing permit (Photograph I posted) Just says battersea Park....does there have to be a code on the Housing  parking permit as you mentioned?

Thanks.
I would expect the visitor permit to have the same code as if the resident you visited had been granted a permit, but I don't know the detail of how Wandsworth operate these visitor permits. Certainly, I would not expect a visitor permit to apply to any of the codes as that would give a visitor better parking options than the residents.
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: poorthing on May 01, 2025, 12:01:53 pm
@ Incandescent - Can I ask please- does the parking permit specifically have to have the exact code displayed on the Parking sign.

The Housing permit (Photograph I posted) Just says battersea Park....does there have to be a code on the Housing  parking permit as you mentioned?

Thanks.

 
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: poorthing on April 30, 2025, 11:30:34 pm

The parking for residents is around the block on Kennard street apparently.  I have just checked and those bays have a sign saying  permit Holders BP.



Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: poorthing on April 30, 2025, 11:16:21 pm
Yes, all the roads around have estates. 
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: poorthing on April 30, 2025, 11:14:54 pm
Thank you for your reply. 

If I were to go ahead and challenge based on the defaced signage. Is there any traffic law/regulation as such I can quote to say that parking signs should be maintained by the Council so that signage is clear or something to that effect. 
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: stamfordman on April 30, 2025, 10:48:01 pm
It's a common mistake we see to confuse estate parking with on-street parking - it's certainly worth a go given the defaced sign.

But I've had a look on Maps and Austin Road does look on-street and not like an estate road.*

*Well on second look the roads there do seem to be among estates.
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: poorthing on April 30, 2025, 10:45:05 pm

Thanks for your reply.  Here is a snap of the Housing permit.

(https://i.imgur.com/1dMQmPy.jpeg)


The traffic warden also has it in his photographic evidence on the Wandsworth Council PCN website.

I now understand that I should not have parked there.  But what i'm trying to ascertain is whether I can challenge the PCN given that the signage was defaced ?  Meaning is the PCN that wandsworth issued valid as the signage was defaced? 
Title: Re: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: Incandescent on April 30, 2025, 10:11:50 pm
Please post the permit you were given if possible. Or tell us what code is on it. If it has a code on it, then as far as I know, it can only be used in bays with the sign marked with the same code.

Here is what Wandsworh has on its website about estate parking.
https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/parking-permits/estates-parking/where-you-can-park-on-an-estate/
Title: PCN -Contravention 12 - WANDSWORTH Council (Defaced sign)
Post by: poorthing on April 30, 2025, 08:16:58 pm
Hi,
Hoping the experts in this forum can help me please.

I was visiting my very elderly in - laws at their Council flat which is on a housing estate in Battersea, Wandsworth.  They gave me a housing parking permit which was given to them by the Wandsworth Council for anyone visiting and needing to park the car, I displayed it in my car and parked on Austin road.  It was the first time I had used this Housing parking permit!

Came back to the car and noticed I was issued a PCN – Contravention 12 (see attached). What I didn’t realise was that the Housing parking permit I displayed in my car could only be used in a designated parking area behind the block of flats (there are 6-7 parking spots for visitors I believe).  Genuinely didn’t realise that the housing permit could not be used if parked on Austin Road ( i.e. in front of the block of flats where they live). 

Below are the PCN Images.

(https://i.imgur.com/oRNJsVG.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/G7CMzp6.jpeg)

NOW, REGARDING THE ISSUED PCN: - 
It so happened that, I had parked my car right in front of a parking sign which was partly defaced.  This can be seen if you zoom in and look closely at the photographic evidence that the traffic warden has posted on Wandsworth site (there are two pictures where the defaced sign can be partially seen with the car in view).  https://parking.wandsworth.gov.uk/pcn/

The traffic warden has rather cunningly tried to avoid taking the picture so that the defaced sign is clearly visible.  In fact the traffic warden posted another individual photograph of a normal parking sign but this sign has been taken on the adjoining road around the corner (Astle Street). NOT where I had parked my car!

Also, on a separate note there is a number on the pole of the displayed parking sign (which the traffic warden took) which is 010 but where I parked my car the number on that pole is 008. ( can be partly seen in the council photographic evidence)

On the day I did take a picture with my car near the defaced traffic sign, but my number plate is not visible. Also have a picture with the defaced parking sign I took. (have attached both the pictures).

(https://i.imgur.com/bkGz7hp.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/TUChJCy.jpeg)


Are there any grounds to challenge this PCN – especially given that my number plate is not visible near the defaced sign?

Hoping someone can help.  Thanks.