Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: cupotea on April 30, 2025, 04:27:57 pm
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Won. Decision tomorrow. ;D I think costs are in order depending on what it says of course. This PCN belongs to Fantasy Island.
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Hearing next week.
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Back now and on top of this.
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I'll file the appeal later this evening.
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Date of NOR is 21st May so we have plenty of time to file the appeal.
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Morning,
I've received the rejection in the post this morning and re-read it (the same one I posted on here earlier, I haven't sent anything to the tribunal as yet). They rejected because, "...our camera evidence shows your vehicle disobeying a 'no-entry' sign... The CCTV footage shows the vehicle stationary before the restriction then reversing past the no entry signs and road markings..."
On Google Maps back in March 2017 there was a lamp post parallel with the current one and both had 'no-entry' signs on them:
(https://i.imgur.com/HtuJfzt.jpeg)
By Sept 2017 one lamp post had been removed (ahead of the dedicated cycle path being installed) and the 'no-entry' sign removed from the remaining post:
(https://i.imgur.com/Zcb1d1g.jpeg)
The 'no-entry' signs reappeared at some point since last summer (the last time on maps you can see they're missing). The NO ENTRY roadmarking is set well back from the posts and so shouldn't be used as a guide. I've marked up the current overhead view in the snip below:
- The red dots are the posts the current 'no-entry' signs are fixed to - the original lamp post (on the left as you drive) and a post which is set back from Union Street and belongs to Redcross Way. They're not in line with each other and are well ahead of the NO ENTRY road marking.
- The green rectangle is the spot I reversed in to.
- The purple dot is the post where the camera was fixed and the purple lines are its lines of sight. As per the video evidence they provided the camera is unable to see either sign post, the view is blocked by a tree on the left and a house on the right
As such, I don't think they have any evidence that my car actually reversed past these signs:
(https://i.imgur.com/gH2tEQc.jpeg)
I just wanted to provide this in case it helps, thanks.
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PM received. let's go for it.
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There's no dashed line on the road and you're right I think that it isn't clear you breached the signs.
They also ignored the wording challenge - Hippo is on top of this.
I think you have a very good chance at adjudication although some adjudicators can be fickle.
There's a chance that Southwark won't contest too.
I am. Please stay with us. I am in pre-action protocol mode re their PCNs and website for High Court.
Your case: failure to consider is a ground of appeal. PM sent.
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There's no dashed line on the road and you're right I think that it isn't clear you breached the signs.
They also ignored the wording challenge - Hippo is on top of this.
I think you have a very good chance at adjudication although some adjudicators can be fickle.
There's a chance that Southwark won't contest too.
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Hello again. I've had the expected rejection from Southwark. Any suggestions - assume I stick to my guns? Does seem unfair, looks like they've now moved that camera to another spot.
Here is the rejection:
(https://i.imgur.com/HgrtYBr.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/awgfjfj.jpeg)
And something else I noticed. The no entry signs are new(ish), however for the RH side no-entry sign (nearside to the driver) they have used the existing post which is meant for Redcross Way, it's not on Union Street. The post now looks like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/TqDsbyI.jpeg)
Although you can see both in this photo it is clearly in the other street:
(https://i.imgur.com/h7lUxqC.jpeg)
Also measurement A is approx 2.1m from the pavement (so below the 2.15m it should be), and B is over 3m, possibly closer to 4m from the roadside itself so surely this signpost isn't valid? Although there is still the road marking (which I had driven over the wrong direction) and the other signpost which appears to be valid but would've been hard to see if i'm reversing. I don't even think my car was fully past either post, only the road marking - does that make a difference?
Thanks for any help with a response on this one.
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I've shared that link out, thanks.
Fyi last year it took 8 months give or take from initial representation to tribunal cancelling a pcn, with the Southwark responses being I think a month for the first rejection and then 3 or 4 months I think it was for the 2nd, so we'll see.
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Thanks for all the help, I will submit my representation today and will update this post in a few months when they reject it...
A few days or weeks more likely.
Meanwhile, I am gathering support for this which I will spearhead.
https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/attention-all-recipients-of-pcns-from-lambeth-lewisham-andor-southwark-proposed-/
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Thanks for all the help, I will submit my representation today and will update this post in a few months when they reject it...
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I have yesterday taken on another case (bus lane) and will be taking my formal complaint re their website to its final destination.
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I would keep 'Separately,' to start the wording challenge, and instead of 'is the issue' - 'is wrong'.
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(https://i.imgur.com/G9ecnE0.jpeg)
I assume you mean this?
Thanks for the wording, just to note that as they have now raised their charges the 50% raises this one to £240 (not £195 as you stated, but it would've been that on previous PCNs):
I am challenging PCN JK15110451 on two grounds: (1) the contravention did not occur, and (2) collateral challenge.
The PCN alleges contravention code 51J – Failing to comply with a no entry restriction (camera enforcement). At the time of the incident, I was reversing into a permitted on-street bay, for which I hold a valid resident permit. I had driven past the bay, then reversed back into it. I did not drive forward through any restriction. While the video shows a no entry marking painted on the road, I was reversing and did not see this. The manoeuvre was a routine reverse park into a familiar bay, not a deliberate attempt to enter a restricted area.
I also note that this is not an isolated incident. In PCN JK1269838A, issued to another vehicle in similar circumstances, my car is already visible parked in the same bay in the footage. This not only shows that I use this bay regularly, but also suggests that vehicles are being routinely ticketed for what is in fact a common and lawful reverse parking manoeuvre. This raises concern that enforcement in this location is being applied unfairly or in a manner that does not reflect how the space is typically used.
The statement under the picture on the PCN “If full payment has not been made before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice, a Charge Certificate may be issued increasing the amount outstanding by 50% to £240.00” is the issue. Schedule I @ paras. 5(1) and (2)(a) states from the date of service. In light of this collateral challenge, the PCN is invalid.
In light of both the facts and the collateral challenge , I request that the PCN be cancelled.
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How does this sound:
I am challenging PCN JK15110451 on two grounds: (1) the contravention did not occur, and (2) procedural impropriety.
collateral challenge
The PCN alleges contravention code 51J – Failing to comply with a no entry restriction (camera enforcement). At the time of the incident, I was reversing into a permitted on-street bay, for which I hold a valid resident permit. I had driven past the bay, then reversed back into it. I did not drive forward through any restriction. While the video shows a no entry marking painted on the road, I was reversing and did not see this. The manoeuvre was a routine reverse park into a familiar bay, not a deliberate attempt to enter a restricted area.
I also note that this is not an isolated incident. In PCN JK1269838A, issued to another vehicle in similar circumstances, my car is already visible parked in the same bay in the footage. This not only shows that I use this bay regularly, but also suggests that vehicles are being routinely ticketed for what is in fact a common and lawful reverse parking manoeuvre. This raises concern that enforcement in this location is being applied unfairly or in a manner that does not reflect how the space is typically used.
Separately, the PCN contains a procedural impropriety. It states: “The Penalty Charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice" which is incorrect. Schedule 1, paragraphs 5(1) and 5(2)(a) of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 require the 28-day period to begin from the date of service of the notice. This misstatement shortens the statutory response time and is grounds for cancellation.
In light of both the facts and the procedural error collateral challenge , I request that the PCN be cancelled.
Procedural impropriety is not a ground. This instead: The statement under the picture on the PCN “If full payment has not been made before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice, a Charge Certificate may be issued increasing the amount outstanding by 50% to
£195.00” is the issue. Schedule I @ paras. 5(1) and (2)(a) states from the date of service. In light of this collateral challenge, the PCN is invalid.
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I meant this from website page:
Ticket ReferenceJK15110451
Your PCN is at discount stage. PCN process information
Vehicle Registration NumberDE16KGG
ColourBLACK
MakeVOLKSWAGEN
Contravention51j - Failing to comply with a no entry restriction (camera enforcement)
LocationUNION STREET JUNCTION REDCROSS WAY
First seen atMon, 21 Apr 2025 21:48
Issued atMon, 21 Apr 2025 21:48
Served byPost
The amount outstanding on the Penalty Charge Notice will increase to £160.00. Please pay £80.00 now. I say this is unlawful as you have not even made repsrenatations yet!
****
www.southwark.gov.uk/pcn or go to home page and parking.
View the evidence, pay or challenge my Penalty Charge Notice (PCN)
This portal is specifically PCNs issued by the London Borough of Southwark that begin with JK.
Enter your ticket reference
This is the reference near the top of the ticket. It starts with JK followed by numbers sometimes with A on the end
Enter your vehicle registration number
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Hi, sorry not sure which page you mean?
(https://i.imgur.com/s7dcUe1.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2UKfzEv.jpeg)
How does this sound:
I am challenging PCN JK15110451 on two grounds: (1) the contravention did not occur, and (2) procedural impropriety.
The PCN alleges contravention code 51J – Failing to comply with a no entry restriction (camera enforcement). At the time of the incident, I was reversing into a permitted on-street bay, for which I hold a valid resident permit. I had driven past the bay, then reversed back into it. I did not drive forward through any restriction. While the video shows a no entry marking painted on the road, I was reversing and did not see this. The manoeuvre was a routine reverse park into a familiar bay, not a deliberate attempt to enter a restricted area.
I also note that this is not an isolated incident. In PCN JK1269838A, issued to another vehicle in similar circumstances, my car is already visible parked in the same bay in the footage. This not only shows that I use this bay regularly, but also suggests that vehicles are being routinely ticketed for what is in fact a common and lawful reverse parking manoeuvre. This raises concern that enforcement in this location is being applied unfairly or in a manner that does not reflect how the space is typically used.
Separately, the PCN contains a procedural impropriety. It states: “The Penalty Charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice" which is incorrect. Schedule 1, paragraphs 5(1) and 5(2)(a) of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 require the 28-day period to begin from the date of service of the notice. This misstatement shortens the statutory response time and is grounds for cancellation.
In light of both the facts and the procedural error, I request that the PCN be cancelled.
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Please screenshot their webpage re payment.
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I wouldn't give up on challenging the contravention - you are a resident who reverse parked when you saw other nearer bays were full ahead. The video does not capture you driving head first past a no entry sign, after all.
I would make this the primary ground and follow that with a note about the PCN wording, which then puts them on notice that they are unlikely to get away with this and so they may bail out on not enforcing a contravention I think would not convince all adjudicators.
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Thank you both for your responses. Having just gone through about 9 months of waiting etc before my last ticket vs Southwark was eventually cancelled I have very little hope of Southwark cancelling this ticket in the first instance - I think their default stance is to reject. Looking at the earlier case, it seems the camera just isn't calibrated properly or is in the wrong location (or they need to move the parking bay). But in the hope of this being a quick win and I can forget about it will the procedural impropriety be sufficient or do I also mention that I was just parking?
I've chatgpt'd a response - would this do? Thanks.
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I am writing to formally challenge the issuance of PCN [insert PCN number] on the grounds of procedural impropriety as defined under the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007.
The wording on the PCN states:
“If full payment has not been made before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice, a Charge Certificate may be issued increasing the amount outstanding by 50% to £195.00.”
This is factually and legally incorrect. Under Schedule 1, Paragraphs 1 and 2 of the aforementioned regulations, the 28-day period must begin with the date of service of the notice, not the date the notice is issued.
The date of service is legally defined as two working days after the notice is posted, and this misstatement effectively shortens the period during which I may lawfully make payment or representations. This amounts to a procedural impropriety, as the notice fails to comply with statutory requirements.
Given that the notice misstates my legal rights, I respectfully request that this PCN be cancelled immediately on the grounds of procedural impropriety.
=========================
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The statement under the picture on the PCN “If full payment has not been made before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice, a Charge Certificate may be issued increasing the amount outstanding by 50% to
£195.00” is the issue. Schedule I @ paras. 5(1) and (2)(a) states from the date of service. In light of this, the PCN is invalid. Please cancel.
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We had another reverse parking one here the other day but driver clearly stopped in time and they had to cancel.
I see they've put a no entry sign up on Union Street - that is fairly recent (not there in 2022). I didn't realise that.
I think they can't prove you breached the sign and you should go for stopping and just engaging in a parking manoeuvre. In any case it's not a manoeuvre that breaches the intent of the traffic situation.
(https://i.ibb.co/Y7QtSM8K/so1-ezgif-com-video-to-gif-converter.gif)
Other case - looks like your car was already parked there which could be good evidence.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/failed-to-comply-with-no-entry-restriction-but-i-just-reversed-to-park/msg56874/#msg56874
https://i.imgur.com/fEqDdRf.gif
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Hi all,
I've received a PCN for reversing into a no entry restriction. I'm a local resident and have a resident parking permit, there were 3 resident bays behind me and 2 ahead. The 2 ahead are my preference but were full so I reversed back to a spare space in the row of 3. I wasn't aware this was a no entry (i've lived here a few years). Although the road marking is old the "no entry" signs and camera are new, i've only just noticed them since the ticket. I knew it was a one way road though but thought I was ok as was reversing into a parking spot (as is clear on the video footage in the PCN).
(https://i.imgur.com/gcvfe66.jpeg)
This is a streetview image with the new no entry signs:
(https://i.imgur.com/uG7FPfu.jpeg)
I don't think i've got much of a case, I know you can reverse to a spot on a one way road but I think the no entry sign negates that option.
Thanks for any advice.