Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: elasticrock on April 23, 2025, 12:38:59 pm

Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: b789 on May 02, 2025, 10:20:49 am
I don't understand why, after having explained that a debt collector has absolutely zero power to actually do a single thing apart from use scary language that they cannot follow up on, they should be "feared". They are utterly powerless.

They can only try and make the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree pay up out of ignorance and fear. Unless someone, after receiving that advice from someone who is very knowledgeable about this, continues to fear those letters, then the question of ignorance must come into play.

A fear that your credit history can somehow be affected because a powerless, bottom-dwelling debt collector has sent you a letter, then that is an irrational "fear" based on ignorance. THE ONLY way you could have a problem with your credit record is if you go to court, are unsuccessful and then don't pay the CCJ in full within 30 days of the judgment, then you would have a CCJ on your credit record. If you do pay the CCJ within 30 days, then there is no record of it, ever, on your credit record. It is completely expunged.

Debt recovery letters are free source of hamster bedding if you shred them. There is nothing to "fear" about them. If the "fear" is based on an irrational misconception that maybe someone can come knocking on your door, then that is a fear also based on ignorance.

So, getting the occasional letter through the post from a debt recovery agent should not be feared. Simply bin it. Nothing is going to happen.

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Why no bailiff can knock on your door

1. County Court Judgment (CCJ):

• A bailiff (enforcement agent) can only get involved after a creditor has obtained a CCJ against you in a county court.
• If the CCJ is under £600, the creditor cannot transfer it to the High Court for enforcement by a High Court Enforcement Officer (HCEO). Instead, enforcement would remain under the county court's jurisdiction.

2. Threshold for High Court Enforcement:

• If a CCJ is over £600 (including fees and interest), the creditor can transfer it to the High Court for enforcement by an HCEO. This is a common method because HCEOs tend to be more effective at recovering money.

3. Cost-Benefit Analysis for Creditors:

• For CCJs under £600, creditors may find it uneconomical to pursue enforcement through county court bailiffs, as they are generally slower and less effective than HCEOs.
• As a result, creditors may opt not to escalate enforcement for small amounts.

4. Private Parking Charges and Bailiffs:

• In the context of private parking charges, no bailiff action can occur unless the parking operator has gone to court, won a case, obtained a CCJ, and you fail to pay the judgment within the stipulated time (usually 30 days).

So, no bailiff will come to your door for a debt under £600 unless the creditor deems it worth pursuing through county court enforcement. However, even if the debt is over £600, bailiff involvement only happens after a CCJ is issued, and enforcement is transferred to the High Court.

Nothing we advise on here will make anyone get a CCJ.

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A County Court Judgment (CCJ) does not just happen—it follows a clear legal process. If someone gets a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) from a private parking company, here's what happens step by step:

1. Parking Charge Notice (PCN) Issued

• The parking company sends a letter (Notice to Keeper) demanding money.

• This is not a fine—it’s an invoice for an alleged breach of contract.

2. Opportunity to Appeal

• The recipient can appeal to the parking company.

•If rejected, they may be able to appeal to POPLA (if BPA member) or IAS (if IPC member).

• If an appeal is lost or ignored, the parking company demands payment.

3. Debt Collection Letters

• The parking company might send scary letters or pass the case to a debt collector.

• Debt collectors have no power—they just send letters and can be ignored.

No CCJ happens at this stage.

4. Letter Before Claim (LBC)

• If ignored for long enough, the parking company (or their solicitor) sends a Letter Before Claim (LBC).

• This is a warning that they may start a court case.

• The recipient has 30 days to reply before a claim is filed.

No CCJ happens at this stage.

5. County Court Claim Issued

• If ignored or unpaid, the parking company may file a claim with the County Court.

• The court sends a Claim Form with details of the claim and how to respond.

• The recipient has 14 days to respond (or 28 days if they acknowledge it).

No CCJ happens at this stage.

6. Court Process

• If the recipient defends the claim, a judge decides if they owe money.

• If the recipient ignores the claim, the parking company wins by default.

No CCJ happens yet unless the recipient loses and ignores the court.

7. Judgment & Payment

• If the court rules that money is owed, the recipient has 30 days to pay in full.

• If they pay within 30 days, no CCJ goes on their credit file.

• If they don’t pay within 30 days, the CCJ stays on their credit file for 6 years.

Conclusion

CCJs do not appear out of thin air. They only happen if:

• A parking company takes the case to court.

• The person loses or ignores the case.

• The person fails to pay within 30 days.

If you engage with the process (appeal, defend, or pay on time), no CCJ happens.
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: elasticrock on May 01, 2025, 11:27:06 pm
Ha, no that would make sense. I guess I was just responding to the accusation of whether I was about to be "part of the problem"  ;)
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: DWMB2 on May 01, 2025, 10:28:52 pm
The advice sections of the forum exist to advise people on fighting their cases - we're not here to pass moral judgement on people who come here, and posts that do are liable to be moderated. Ultimately, it's not our money, so if somebody decides to pay up, that's their choice. Although if we were in favour of people paying up, we wouldn't be on this forum helping people to fight ;)
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: elasticrock on May 01, 2025, 10:15:57 pm
Having said all that, I will be contesting this one as they are absolute cowboys, so appreciate the advice
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: elasticrock on May 01, 2025, 10:15:01 pm
Thanks, I appreciate everything your saying...

b789 - what would you say to people who just would rather not having the stress of having the debt passed onto debt collectors, ramping up and then having to deal with a whole new group of charlatans trying to extract more money out of you?

I do agree with you in principle but just sometimes I find it better for my own life and stress levels to wipe the slate clean, even if I'm aware I'm being bent over the barrel so to speak.
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: H C Andersen on April 27, 2025, 09:44:50 pm
Who is the lease company?

Write to them and fond out what documents they supplied to NPC.

The law:

Step 1: the creditor issues a NTK to the RK;

Step 2: the RK may relieve themselves of liability ONLY by stating that they are a vehicle-hire company AND by providing the specified docs;

Step 3: on receipt of these the creditor MUST notify the RK that they no longer have any liability AND may issue a Notice to Hirer which MUST include these docs AND a copy of the original NTK(your so-called NTH actually refers to the parking charge in the NTK..but what the F does this mean unless you have a copy of the NTK?).

Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: b789 on April 27, 2025, 11:23:25 am
OP, you can either follow the advice and you don't pay a penny or ignore it and pay into a scam and then you become part of the problem. Which is it to be?

NPC have no idea who the driver is. There is no legal obligation on the Keeper/Hirer to identify the driver. NPC are not some kind of authority that can issue penalty noticed and require the Keeper to identify the driver! They are an unregulated firm of ex-clamper scammers with zero authority to require anything.

The Parking Charge Notice (PCN) is nothing more than a speculative invoice for an alleged breach of contract by the driver. The only entity that can be liable for any charge is the driver, who should remain unknown They care not allowed to infer or assume that the Keeper/Hirer is the driver. That is well established in case law.

The only way they can transfer the liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the known Keeper/Hirer is if the PCN is fully compliant with PoFA 2012. It isn't.

So, you appeal with the following, which they will reject anyway, because you are dealing with scammers whose only aim is to get money out of you. You can then make a secondary appeal to the IAS but they are part of the scam too, so very unlikely that would succeed either.

The way this goes is that if they can't scare you into paying after sending a load of useless debt recovery letters which you can safely ignore as they are powerless except to try and scare the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree into paying out of ignorance and fear, they will then issue a court claim in the hope that that will make you poop your pants, again, out of ignorance and fear.

A claim is ideal because it is the only truly independent dispute resolution service. However, with our advice and assistance, it is very easy defended and I would place a bet for £100 that it would never reach a hearing. It would be either struck out of discontinued.

There is zero risk of a CCJ or anything else if you follow the advice. You have a "golden ticket" and you can rest assured that it won't cost you a penny.

For now, I suggest you appeal, only as the Hirer, with the following:

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I am the Hirer of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

As your Notice to Hirer (NtH) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the Hirer of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. NPC has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The Hirer cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtH can only hold the driver liable. NPC have no hope should you be stupid enough to try and litigate this, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: jfollows on April 26, 2025, 09:33:39 pm
Bottom line is that NPC, amongst others, can’t be bothered with the hassle of complying with legislation to hold hirers responsible because they know that lots of people in receipt of a defective Notice to Hirer just pay up anyway. They save the expense of complying but receive ££££ anyway. The non-compliant NtH would be enough to have the case thrown out of court if it went that far.
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: jfollows on April 26, 2025, 09:22:05 pm
Report to moderator and ask for this to be done for you.

(I seem to have become a Sr. Member but I can’t do anything with your posts like this!)
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: elasticrock on April 26, 2025, 09:19:40 pm
You should edit your first post in line with the READ THIS FIRST to avoid implicitly identifying the driver.

yes good point, can't seem to edit at the moment though
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: jfollows on April 26, 2025, 09:18:36 pm
No, they have to be sent to you, the hirer, along with the Notice to Hirer. Read the legislation if you are unclear. You say they weren’t.

You have nothing to do with the communication between NPC and the registered keeper, because you’re not the registered keeper.
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: elasticrock on April 26, 2025, 09:16:48 pm
Actually maybe I should clarify that I don't know whether those documents were included to the leasing company from NPC, they definitely weren't forwarded onto me with the ticket.
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: jfollows on April 26, 2025, 09:16:00 pm
You should edit your first post in line with the READ THIS FIRST to avoid implicitly identifying the driver.
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: jfollows on April 26, 2025, 08:56:18 pm
The fact that the Notice to Hirer did not comply with the requirements of PoFA 2012 to transfer liability from the unknown driver to you as Hirer. You do not name the driver.

The absence of the documents @b789 mentions dooms their case. They rely on people not knowing this and just paying up.

See https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4 section 14(6) in particular.

You appeal that you are not liable on this basis, they will reject your appeal because they always do, but you either get POPLA to cancel it for you - I can’t work out if they are in the BPA or the IPC - or you wait for them to take you to court and follow our advice if the latter. You won’t pay 1p.
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: elasticrock on April 26, 2025, 08:51:25 pm
Sounds like the 5 minute minimum consideration period might be the route to go down, I don't suppose anyone has something that I can cite regarding that rule when I appeal?
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: elasticrock on April 26, 2025, 08:43:57 pm
No, by the looks of things someone crept up behind the van whilst I was sat in it and took those photos. Nothing was attached to the van at the time, the fine came through to the leasing company and then they passed it onto me.

It's a leased vehicle and the notice is in my name, after the leasing company named me as the leasee.

None of those documents were provided, to be totally honest my own personal approach with these fines is if I have a valid reason or technicality I can use that's great, but I'm not so keen to go down the disputed driver route, just my preference.



Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: b789 on April 25, 2025, 10:06:31 am
Are you saying that you received a Notice to Driver (NtD) that was affixed to the vehicle while you were actually in it? If so, where is that NtD?

Is this a hired/leased vehicle? Is that Notice in your name?

Were copies of any of the following documents included with the Notice to Hirer (NtH):

(a) a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b) a copy of the hire agreement;

(c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement; and

(d) a copy of the original Notice to Keeper (NtK) that was sent to the hire/lease company.
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: elasticrock on April 25, 2025, 12:05:31 am
Of course you contest it. No contract could be formed within the consideration period which is a minimum of 5 minutes.

Thanks, I take it this is for private companies as well? Sounds like this could be the route to go down. Pretty cheeky, I didn’t even see the guy
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: elasticrock on April 24, 2025, 11:38:07 pm
Hi,

Sorry for the delayed response, yes of course have attached the pcn I received through the post. I’ve tried to take screenshots of the signs on Google maps but the quality is too bad. I could go down there and take photos of necessary.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: b789 on April 23, 2025, 02:42:28 pm
Of course you contest it. No contract could be formed within the consideration period which is a minimum of 5 minutes.
Title: Re: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: DWMB2 on April 23, 2025, 12:56:51 pm
Welcome to FTLA.
To help us provide the best advice, please read the following thread carefully and provide as much of the information it asks for as you are able to: READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/)
Title: NPC - Ticket whilst still in van
Post by: elasticrock on April 23, 2025, 12:38:59 pm
Hi guys,

Just wondering if I have any chance of contesting this one - I was literally stopped for a few minutes in an estate managed by NPC and got a ticket when I was still in the van, was photographed from the back and time observed was only 1 minute.

Any help gratefully received!