Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: ltn_hell on September 27, 2023, 09:41:21 am
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The in person hearing was listed for 1 February 2024. I just checked the portal for evidence and found a 'Do not Contest' cancellation from the council. Wise of them.
I would like to express my appreciation to mrmustard for all his kind help with this case.
Thank you for all your help. You are a true credit to this forum and to all unfairly treated motorists.
Thanks again!
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Re the 28 day argument: isn't it funny that, when "the usual suspects" establish a legal flaw, it soon begins to fail!? Well done re the DNC.
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My 28 day argument is now failing but luckily I went first of all with the inadequate signage in the Appeal which i started on 29 December.
It is the duty of the EA to erect sufficient signs as to convey adequate information to motorists using the road. The EA erected a number of signs to try and indicate that the part of the bay from no. 4 to no. 54 was suspended. The first sign seen by motorists driving along was on the sign post roughly in line with the party wall of no's 6 & 8. Anyone parking outside no. 4, the start of the bay, would see that sign. The final sign was attached to the sign post outside of 48. It was behind the Appellant's car which was parked outside no. 54. The next sign post ahead, outside of 62 did not bear a suspension sign.
The effect of the missing sign was to make it appear that the place where the Appellant parked was not suspended. I think that in order to provide adequate information the EA should book end at least the suspended area plus a bit more if the location of the available posts so require.
The EA refer to a coned area in their Notice of Rejection. They have not provided evidence of the placement of cones, which would have been helpful to the Appellant in delineating the suspended area.
The in person hearing was listed for 1 February 2024. I just checked the portal for evidence and found a 'Do not Contest' cancellation from the council. Wise of them.
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Thanks Chaseman. Probably wait and see if the DoT authorisation finds itself in the evidence pack and if not try to eliminate the sign altogther as no proof of validity.
I have only been to the tribunal against Haringey 12 times since 2017. I am 12-0 in the lead.
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Sorry I can see the side-wings in post #12. Looks compliant.
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What no-one seems to have looked at so far is Haringey's authorisation from the DfT for its temporary parking suspension signage. Surprising theough it might seem, Haringey obtained its authorisation back in 2011 and appears never to have updated it. Here it is:
https://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-2964.pdf
You will note at para 1(a) that it states specifically that the year should be omitted from the suspension notice. And the sign as photographed clearly shows the year as "23". This was common rubric back at that time and a lot of councils have updated their authorisations to provide that the year may or may not be shown. However it seems that Haringey have been lazy and a) have not updated the auth and b) simply copied RBKC's diagram as you can see from the authority name on the bottom. However note that at 1(c) the authority name may be varied or omitted so this is not evidence of non-compliance in itself.
I never understood why the original batch of authorisations provided for omission of the year but the fact is that they did and if the authorisation specifically states that the year should be omitted and it is in fact included, this looks like a non-compliant sign to me. As a secondary matter, I can't tell from the photos as posted whether the suspension signs have the side-wings with the appropriate verbiage but if not, this would be additional evidence of non-compliance.
One for Mr Mustard to consider in drafting up a formal appeal but it must be one more football lined up in front of the goalmouth - or at least an indirect free kick :)
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Appeal started. Will report the outcome in due course.
Thank you so much for all your kind help!
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Appeal started. Will report the outcome in due course.
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Ok ltn_hell. It is decision time. Carry on fighting which i presume is why you came to this forum, and forget about the 50% discount, or meekly pay up.
We have two balls lined up in front of goal:
1 PCN wording (I have scored with this previously)
2 Inadequate signage.
We only have to get one ball into the net. I am happy to take to the field of play for you. email mrmustard@zoho.com with an unredacted copy of the Notice of Rejection. I would be hopeful of winning at the tribunal.
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A tough one.
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Here is the letter
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Better that we see the actual letter with only your name and address covered up
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I just received a letter from Haringey council. Rejected again.
They said that the warnings were sufficient.
They offered the discount again.
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I'm so sorry, I thought I updated this post.
I appealed on the 24th November with the following:
Hi,
I would like to challenge this PCN as I genuinely thought I was parking in an area that I was allowed to park. I noticed the signs that the parking bays was suspended but I parked nearer to where there were no signs. I also displayed a resident permit ticket.
My parents live at LaRose Lane and as I used to live there, my GP is in West Green Road. I had a medical appointment at Laurence House Surgery and I was running late, I did not realise that the signs were displaying bay numbers. I was parked nearer to a sign that did not mention the bays were suspended.
I would like to challenge for the following reasons:
1. I had a medical appointment.
2. I was parked nearer to a sign that did not display any warnings about suspended bays. There was a sign as attached outside 52 but there was no signage after 52. This shows the signage to be inadequate as the suspended area exceeds the span of the signs.
3. I had resident tickets displayed (as seen in the pictures taken) so it was a genuine mistake.
4. I have never received a Haringey PCN before so I would be grateful for leniency.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Kind regards
It was the same as my previous appeal but I expanded on point 2.
I will update once I get a reply.
Thanks again
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your point 2 shows the signage to be inadequate as the suspended area exceeds the span of the signs
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I actually found a word document where I saved my original appeal.
This is what I said:
Hi,
I would like to challenge this PCN as I genuinely thought I was parking in an area that I was allowed to park. I noticed the signs that the parking bays was suspened but I parked nearer to where there were no signs. I also displayed a resident permit ticket.
My parents live at LeRose Lane and as I used to live there, my GP is in West Green Road. I had a medical appointment at Laurence House Surgery and I was running late, I did not realise that the signs were displaying bay numbers. I was parked nearer to a sign that did not mention the bays were suspended.
I would like to challenge for the following reasons:
1. I had a medical appointment.
2. I was parked nearer to a sign that did not display any warnings about suspended bays.
3. I had resident tickets displayed (as seen in the pictures taken) so it was a genuine mistake.
4. I have never received a Haringey PCN before so I would be grateful for leniency.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Kind regards
I could try the same appeal? Can I ask in what way the signage was inadequate?
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I am a fan of consistency so would simply repeat the same challenge as before. As you are unsure of your words you could simply ask the council to reconsider the informal challenge, in particular as to the inadequate signage.
I'm happy to deal with the tribunal Appeal if you get rejected again.
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Please find attached Notice to Owner.
Thanks again
[attachment deleted by admin]
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+1
Absolutely MUST, MUST MUST
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I received the Notice to Owner yesterday.
Do I now challenge? It seems the challenge is to Haringey council.
Yes, the notice to owner must be challenged or else you automatically lose.
Firstly please post up all sides of all pages of the NTO so that we can check for errors.
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I received the Notice to Owner yesterday.
Do I now challenge? It seems the challenge is to Haringey council.
Thanks
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Will the discount definitely be offered if I respond to the Notice To Owner within 14 days?
I can't think of a single authority in London that doesn't reoffer the discount in these circumstances.
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Informal challenges, (your reps against the PCN), normally get a Fob-Off letter, because the councils know that most people then just cough-up. Ony reps against NtOs get any real sort of consideration.
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Thank you so much for all your kind help. I will wait for the Notice To Owner and post here.
Will the discount definitely be offered if I respond to the Notice To Owner within 14 days?
Also, do you think the appeal has a good chance?
Thanks again.
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Suspension logs / records:
(https://i.imgur.com/1kxNWd3.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/d907LSl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/W3dVswc.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OPXis19.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Udd8yuV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1jlLYuN.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6igXwdX.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PBjpebj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8FTmvSL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/uEtDNEQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/XOxOqYk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0hkb3Gz.jpg)
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Let us know as soon as you get the notice to owner please.
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From memory, something like this.
I would like to appeal this PCN for the following reasons:
1. I was running late for a doctors appointment due to heavy traffic and I didn't notice that I had parked in a suspended bay.
2. As I was unaware of the suspension, I had displayed a valid resident visitor permit.
3. I was parked as close to a post without a sign as the post displaying a sign. For this reason, I believed I wasn't parked in a suspended bay.
4. I have never received a PCN from Haringey before.
For the above reasons, I would be grateful for some leniency and hope that this PCN can be cancelled.
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If you don't have a copy, re-create your representation from memory as best you can.
Obviously all you can do at this point is wait for the notice to owner, as long as you challenge it within 14 days the council will reoffer the discount if they issue a rejection.
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@ltn_hell you need to tick the "Notify me of replies" box when you next post a reply if you want to receive email notifications every time someone responds.
Thank you, I have done this now.
@ltn_hell
For now post up:
1) A copy of your representations, and
2) The rejection letter in full, all sides of all pages, just redact your postal address.
Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of my appeal as I was rushing to appeal.
I have attached a copy of the PDF that was attached to their rejection.
Again, thanks for any help.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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@ltn_hell you need to tick the "Notify me of replies" box when you next post a reply if you want to receive email notifications every time someone responds.
For now post up:
1) A copy of your representations, and
2) The rejection letter in full, all sides of all pages, just redact your postal address.
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Well I've already asked for the suspension logs so we might as well wait and see what comes back. In the meantime a representation will see the discount extended, so I suggest you send something in. Post a draft on here first.
I am so sorry. I didn't see your reply as I didn't get an email that there was a new message.
I noticed I was on the 14th days so I appealed 3 weeks ago. I actually missed the deadline as my appeal was posted at
00:00, missing the deadline by less than 60 seconds!
I appealed based on having a medical appointment, having permits attached and also the fact that my car was between 2 posts and only 1 had a sign with details so I assumed I was parked in a safe area.
The rejected the appeal today but will allow me to pay £65 if paid within 2 weeks. Maybe they took pity on me missing the deadline by 29 seconds.
I'm thinking it would be best to pay the £65.
Any advice would be appreciated and I am really sorry about the late reply.
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Well I've already asked for the suspension logs so we might as well wait and see what comes back. In the meantime a representation will see the discount extended, so I suggest you send something in. Post a draft on here first.
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So am I right in thinking you walked right past this sign?
I'm afraid so. In my mind, I wasn't parked in an affected area.
Could you see any evidence of any utility works taking place?
Nothing at all. There was no evidence of any work taking place.
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So am I right in thinking you walked right past this sign?
(https://i.imgur.com/oGcdAJX.png)
Could you see any evidence of any utility works taking place?
This is the sign authorisation (https://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-2964.pdf).
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But OP you have not answered the question in which direction you left the suspended area.
I'm sorry, I missed this question.
I drove down the road and noticed the suspended signs, then I noticed there were only displayed up to no 50. I drove past, then did a u-turn at the end (there is an LTN box). But as I don't like parking against traffic, I went round the roundabout and parked where I felt it was safe.
When I left my car, I walked towards number 2.
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'The objective facts'..in the context of the OP only disclosing subsequently that they were theirs. In any event, they're as objective as necessary unless it's considered that the OP switched or removed signs! As regards the argument, the point remains germane and I am content to use what's posted and attested to as a working hypothesis.
But OP you have not answered the question in which direction you left the suspended area.
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Very sorry for delay. Number plate is EX17BKU
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The objective facts:
What objective facts? I can't see any council photos and because the VRM has been redacted, we can't even look them up, so there are no objective facts.
@ltn_hell please give us the number plate.
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Please tell me when and where the suspension signs indicating the recent suspension in La Rose Lane were erected (see photo).
Current suspensions in operation
Please contact suspensions@haringey.gov.uk for a list of current and recent parking suspensions.
Thank you, I have emailed them.
I thank HCA for his input because I think there is an argument that the contravention did not occur, reason - inadequate signage of the restriction. No 58 is the highest house number on the notice, yet clearly the CEO didn't read the sign either if a car outside 60 got a PCN.
The bay is not delineated, so a motorist should be able to rely on the sign he can see near his car. With no delineation of the bay, all the parking bay signs for the bay should have the suspension sign. Of course the council will claim otherwise, so you'd have to go to London Tribunals for an unbiased decision. Are you willing to stand your ground and go to London Tribunals ? There is no discount option if you do. Failure to sign suspensions properly has won appeals in the past.
That is very interesting. So basically, the bays should have individual bays for the signage to be correct?
Of course I am assuming the parking restrictions sign outside No 62 had no sign ! All the above falls over if it had onwe.
No, there wasn't any signs outside 62. I took another picture and it's possible to zoom in and see that.
Thanks for all help.
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I thank HCA for his input because I think there is an argument that the contravention did not occur, reason - inadequate signage of the restriction. No 58 is the highest house number on the notice, yet clearly the CEO didn't read the sign either if a car outside 60 got a PCN.
The bay is not delineated, so a motorist should be able to rely on the sign he can see near his car. With no delineation of the bay, all the parking bay signs for the bay should have the suspension sign. Of course the council will claim otherwise, so you'd have to go to London Tribunals for an unbiased decision. Are you willing to stand your ground and go to London Tribunals ? There is no discount option if you do. Failure to sign suspensions properly has won appeals in the past.
Of course I am assuming the parking restrictions sign outside No 62 had no sign ! All the above falls over if it had onwe.
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Yes, but don't miss the discount deadline.
Please tell me when and where the suspension signs indicating the recent suspension in La Rose Lane were erected (see photo).
Current suspensions in operation
Please contact suspensions@haringey.gov.uk for a list of current and recent parking suspensions.
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Thank you for your very kind reply.
I wanted to state that the photos of the road and of the sign were taken by myself. Also, my car was outside 56, or at least 90% of my car was outside 56. Also, the car outside 60 was given a ticket too.
You could check with the council before submitting a challenge.
Sorry but do you mean before challenging the ticket?
Thanks again
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The objective facts:
Your car was parked o/s 54/56 (the PCN states 54 but the CEO's photo suggests 54/56).
The suspended area in that part ran from 48 to 58.
There is a normal traffic sign o/s 50 and also one o/s 62.
You were parked approx. equidistant between the two facing towards the higher numbered properties.
The CEO photographed the suspension sign attached to the traffic sign @ no. 50.
Now, you say 'I had to walk 100 metres to my parents house, find a ticket, fill in the ticket, walk back to the car and display the ticket. For reasons I can't explain, it didn't register to check the signs,'.
Perhaps we can. There is an obvious answer, which is that you walked towards no.62 and there wasn't a suspension sign there, which is why there was nothing to see.
We have this issue on a regular basis i.e. councils not placing suspension signs beyond the suspended area in some odd belief that a suspension sign, even if some distance from where a car is parked, has magical and magnetic properties which draw drivers even if this is not the direction they would exit the suspended area. In this case, as the furthest extent of the suspended area was no. 58 then as this is obviously closer to 62 than is 50 and clearly visible the council was obliged to place a suspension sign there.
You could check with the council before submitting a challenge.
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So, you were in a big rush, saw some spaces, and also the yellow sign which you knew was a suspension sign, parked up away from the sign without going to see what the sign said, and proceeded to the doctors.
Yes, that is correct. I had to walk 100 metres to my parents house, find a ticket, fill in the ticket, walk back to the car and display the ticket. For reasons I can't explain, it didn't register to check the signs, I just assumed I was ok as I parks far from the signs. I even walked past the traffic warden, fully believing I was fine.
Well, in all honesty, I cannot see any credible appeal argument to present at the adjudicators. Of course you can submit representations to the council on a mitigation basis. These may or may not succeed, but if the council refuse your reps, going to London Tribunals will not succeed as they cannot consider mitigation. I looked at the PCN and it seems OK.
Others may see something I haven't so wait a bit, but don't miss any deadlines like the discount end date
I think asking for leniency is my only chance, I wouldn't take it further if it was rejected.
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So, you were in a big rush, saw some spaces, and also the yellow sign which you knew was a suspension sign, parked up away from the sign without going to see what the sign said, and proceeded to the doctors.
Well, in all honesty, I cannot see any credible appeal argument to present at the adjudicators. Of course you can submit representations to the council on a mitigation basis. These may or may not succeed, but if the council refuse your reps, going to London Tribunals will not succeed as they cannot consider mitigation. I looked at the PCN and it seems OK.
Others may see something I haven't so wait a bit, but don't miss any deadlines like the discount end date
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Hi,
I received a council PCN and wanted some advice please on whether it is worth appealing.
I had a doctors appointment on the 21st September. I was stuck in traffic due to local LTN and was running late. I parked in my parents road near the doctor and used a resident parking ticket but I noticed that there were multiple signs mentioning suspended bays so I parked where there were no signs and used the resident permit.
When I got to my car, I saw a yellow PCN note attached to my car.
(https://i.ibb.co/nRZV5Cg/IMG-20230927-025335.jpg) (http://"https://ibb.co/GFB1bTx")
(https://i.ibb.co/HH87TFD/IMG-20230927-025357.jpg) (http://"https://ibb.co/jrXhk6v")
As I was in a hurry, I didn't notice that the signs actually mentioned the bays that were suspended:
(https://i.ibb.co/0B6D0M7/IMG-20230921-173336.jpg) (http://"https://ibb.co/6vTnKPM")
I was parked outside 56. As I was in a hurry, I missed the numbers on the signs. I parked away from the signs, mistakenly believing I was not parking near the suspended bays:
(https://i.ibb.co/3pHsd8p/IMG-20230921-173426-1.jpg) (http://"https://ibb.co/sKrPRDK")
I was in the wrong, I missed the details as I was in a rush.
Is there any point appealing? The fact I was displaying a permit and I had a medical appointment, is it worth asking for leniency?
Any help would be appreciated!
PS. Here is the street view:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/6tTDUBwMMogYuGjh6