Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Speeding and other criminal offences => Topic started by: Richduc on April 22, 2025, 11:58:58 am
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If a guilty plea is equivocal or condition, the court ought to reject it and substitute a not guilty plea - unless of course they accept the offer and do the deal.
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Hi and thanks again for anyone reading.
I have spoken with STS this morning. So this web form they send is now apparently in lieu of the SD form. It has options for setting up fine payments as well as reopening other court proceedings. Option 5 is for completing an SD (or the equivalent) when you were unaware of proceedings. As I’m outside the 21 days to keep things moving, I’m leaving my plea as guilty to the original offence on the proviso the FTF is expunged (although probably not ideal. I’ll follow up with an email to them explaining my error but I don’t want to start again with a new form - I can’t amend the one submitted. It can be up to six months before I get a response from the courts apparently.. I’ll keep you updated.
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Thanks for the reply. I think I’ll ring STS tomorrow and see if I can sort this mess out!!
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Thank you for removing the personal details. Remiss of me. Ok so I’ll get this form cancelled and just fill in and submit an SD. Although I’m now outside the 21 days…
I'm still not sure what the purpose of the online form you've completed is and whether it commits you to anything at this point.
If you are now outside 21 days it might not be a good idea to cancel it. Perhaps you should just sort out the "niceties" later when you come to swear it - as suggested by @NewJudge.
Wait and see what they think
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Thank you for removing the personal details. Remiss of me. Ok so I’ll get this form cancelled and just fill in and submit an SD. Although I’m now outside the 21 days…
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I suggest you take that document down as it contains your name, DOB and NI number.
That form has nothing to do with a Stat Dec.
All the court needs to know is that you have been convicted of an offence via proceedings of which you had no knowledge and that you want to make a statutory declaration to have the conviction removed.
I can see there being confusion with the term “original offence”. Once the SD is done the niceties of that can be sorted out and you can make your offer to plead guilty to the real “original offence” provided the FtP is dropped.
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I've removed the image you attached - you may wish not to share your full name, date of birth and National Insurance number on a public forum.
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It’s an Options after a magistrates' court decision form and I’m giving a statement of truth. It’s what the call centre told me to do when I explained the situation and told me this would reopen the case and allow me to go to court to hopefully get the result under discussion.
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Thank you for the response. I’ll have to see if I can amend the form then otherwise I’m scuppered.
What exactly is this online form called? It can't be a stat dec itself because you have to swear the SD in front of a commissioner for oaths.
It sounds to me like it's a form they are using to collect preliminary information prior to swearing the SD, but it doesn't sound to be suitable for your situation. ie it's not just a simple case of dealing with the failure to identify conviction because you want the underlying speeding to be brought into the process so you can do the deal
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Thank you for the response. I’ll have to see if I can amend the form then otherwise I’m scuppered.
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I’ll go back and clarify what ‘original offence’ refers to.
As far as the SD goes, the "original offence" can only be the one of which you were convicted - failure to provide the driver's details.
The important thing is to make sure you maintain Not Guilty pleas to both offences until you have an assurance that the FtP charge will be dropped if you plead guilty to speeding.
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Hi again!
I’ve presumed that the form - a screenshot attached in previous post - is the SD - or at least the initial submission. I’ll go back and clarify what ‘original offence’ refers to. If to the FTF I’ll amend to not guilty although I’m not sure what to put in the text box for why. Although it may not require any reason for a NG plea.
If it’s the original speeding offence then I’ll also amend to it guilty?? and still not sure what to write for the reason why, if any is required.
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Ok, not the best way of handling things but I think you can still get the result you want.
Just proceed as has already been set out. The first thing is the SD, that will then effectively take you back to the beginning.
With you having already spoken with the prosecutor, the court will then put the speeding charge back to you first, then you plead guilty to that charge in open court.
Then the prosecutor will withdraw the FTP charge.
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Hi and thanks for replying.
All I really know is that there’s one case number relating to two charges. On the call to HMCTS they said that the speeding offence was dropped. I assumed probably incorrectly that the original offence was the speeding offence otherwise why word it as original offence. I’m so confused!
I’ll have to ring the STS back and see if I can amend the form.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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... Am I right to answer that yes I’m guilty of the original offence on the proviso the FTP is set aside?
Thanks for anyone reading this and any further guidance.
Rich
Sorry but I think that is a really arse-about way of looking at this.
Assuming you were dual charged with speeding and failure to identify, you plead "NOT GUILTY" to both offences, but you tell the prosecutor that you would be willing to change your plea in respect of the speeding to "Guilty" if - and only if - they agree to drop the failure to identify charge. You don't set out by saying "Yes I'm guilty" of anything. Rather you say "Not guilty but..."
I think I may have made a mistake on the SD online! It asked I if I’m pleading guilty to the original offence. And gives a box to tick and a box for text. I checked the I am guilty box and put some text relating to pleading guilty to the original offence if the subsequent offence was quashed. Is this correct or should I have checked the not guilty box??? Now feeling really stupid and worried I’ve just pled guilty to another offence on top!! Thank you to all who have given their advice so far.
As far as I can recall the only offence you have been convicted of so far is failure to identify the driver, and that is the offence that you are swearing the SD in respect of. When the online form refers to what you describe as the "original offence", is it talking about the original speeding offence or is it talking about the failure to identify?
I may be mistaken but I suspect that the original offence is the failure to identify - the only offence you have been convicted of - so pleading guilty is quite likely a mistake and defeats the purpose of doing the SD in the first place.
But don't panic! See what other posters more expert than me say...
NB - weren't you going to clarify with the court if you'd been dual charged or not? It's being dual charged that gets you the best result here because you need the speeding charge to bargain with
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I think I may have made a mistake on the SD online! It asked I if I’m pleading guilty to the original offence. And gives a box to tick and a box for text. I checked the I am guilty box and put some text relating to pleading guilty to the original offence if the subsequent offence was quashed. Is this correct or should I have checked the not guilty box??? Now feeling really stupid and worried I’ve just pled guilty to another offence on top!! Thank you to all who have given their advice so far.
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That is pretty much correct.
In practice you will discuss this with the prosecutor on the day, before you swear your SD (you won't actually discuss the details in open court).
As soon as your SD is sworn the Clerk to the Court will put the initial offence to you again, you plead guilty and then the prosecutor will withdraw the FTP charge. Job done!
You will be fined, endorsed and sent on your way.
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Hi again
and apologies for delay in updates so understand if no one wants to comment! Only just managed to get through to SJS after no response from emails and calls not being connected.
Anyway, I was charged with two offences, my original speeding offence has been withdrawn and found guilty of the FTP in my absence. SPS have sent me a link for an online Statutory declaration which I’m about to send off. I’ve filled it in to the best of my ability. The only real query is they ask how do you plead to the original offence. Am I right to answer that yes I’m guilty of the original offence on the proviso the FTP is set aside?
Thanks for anyone reading this and any further guidance.
Rich
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What [the OP has told us that] the court has told/supplied to the OP makes little sense.
Until the OP receives (and shares) meaningful information from the court, I suggest that posters refrain from idle speculation or other irrelevant noise.
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I think original offence, charge and conviction have morphed into one and then been split up again in the wrong order. He has been convicted of FTF. I can't see how there can be another SJPN unless there is a second occasion of it happening.
The SJNP and witness statement (from the speed camera operator) I requested relate to and mention only the NIP.
I mean translate that to mean whatever you want I guess. But it doesn't say only charged with Speeding (and how could that be the case?). It could mean only charged with FTF or it could just be a witness statement from the camera operator saying "I observed XXX speeding, etc, he was issued with a NIP" and so on and does not confirm what the OP was actually charged with.
So I’m anticipating there’s two offences I’ve been unaware of and therefore another SJNP for that too that I’ve also missed?
This is the only mention of 'second SJPN' and is probably unqualified speculation/nonsense.
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However, if you only have 6 points for a FTF/MS90 conviction on your licence and you have no other charges pending you are probably ok and only need to sort out the statutory declaration for the FTF conviction
But he needs to know whether or not he was "dual charged" so as yo decide how to proceed when the charge(s) are put to him again.
Yes - of course. I see what you mean, but... if the court has sent him a SJPN relating only to speeding and he's been convicted of FTF, doesn't that mean that he must have been dual charged?
He already has the details of the speeding SJPN so isn't it only the FTF details that he needs now? That is what I was trying to convey, perhaps not very well, at the end of my previous post. I certainly don't want to suggest the OP do anything that might prejudice his chances of getting the best outcome he can at this stage.
Pointless speculation but do you think there must be another SJPN for the FTF that - for whatever reason - the court didn't see fit to pass on to the OP when he enquired about the conviction? Seems rather odd to me that the court didn't either pass on a SJPN with two charges on it, or - if there were two separate SJPNs - that they didn't pass on both.
If I were the OP I'd want to know what had happened and not be worrying there might be more surprises for me...
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However, if you only have 6 points for a FTF/MS90 conviction on your licence and you have no other charges pending you are probably ok and only need to sort out the statutory declaration for the FTF conviction
But he needs to know whether or not he was "dual charged" so as yo decide how to proceed when the charge(s) are put to him again.
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I’ll go back to hMCTS and ask for the case number for the FTF and see if I can get the papers for that which may show dual offences?
There aren’t any other outstanding offences I’m aware of (I went to my local police station last week and although they couldn’t give me any paperwork the officer said he’d checked all my details and there wasn’t anything else he could see) and I have 6 points, MS90 applied recently
I think what's confusing is that when you contacted the court after you received a further steps notice about the FTF conviction, the court sent you a SJPN and witness statement relating only to the original speeding charge.
That's a bit confusing for a few reasons.
First, if you were contacting the court about the FTF conviction that you knew nothing about, why didn't they send you the FTF SJPN relating to that conviction that you were asking about rather than the original speeding SJPN?
Second, my understanding of what usually happens when someone fails to identify the driver is that they receive a single SJPN charging them separately with both offences: (1) speeding and (2) FTF. Again the question arises as to why the court has sent you a copy of a SJPN that only bears a speeding charge. Why didn't the SJPN dual charge you?
Third, if you never identified yourself as the driver, how was a SJPN charging you with a single chrge of speeding raised at all?
However, if you only have 6 points for a FTF/MS90 conviction on your licence and you have no other charges pending you are probably ok and only need to sort out the statutory declaration for the FTF conviction
[Edit: I'm sure you realise this now but when you contact the courts again make sure they understand that you want details associated with the FTF conviction]
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I have 6 points, MS90 applied recently
You weren’t convicted of speeding then.
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Once the stat dec is done there will be two offences.
Only if he was "dual charged" in the first place.
Whilst its not 100% clear, the witness statement from the camera operator in the original SJPN bundle would lean me toward thinking he was.
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I’ll go back to hMCTS and ask for the case number for the FTF and see if I can get the papers for that which may show dual offences?
There aren’t any other outstanding offences I’m aware of (I went to my local police station last week and although they couldn’t give me any paperwork the officer said he’d checked all my details and there wasn’t anything else he could see) and I have 6 points, MS90 applied recently
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Once the stat dec is done there will be two offences.
Only if he was "dual charged" in the first place.
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I think some posters are getting confused here. What you should have had is a SJPN dual charged with speeding and FTP. What you are unlikely to have had is a SJPN for FTP followed by a second SJPN for the speeding charge. There is currently only one conviction to deal with and no outstanding offences. Once the stat dec is done there will be two offences.
The statement from the camera operator will be there only to refer to the original offence.
Your licence online should show the one conviction code, MS90 for failure to provide driver details.
Edit. There could be a second charge relating to an entirely separate occasion of course. But that isn't what we appear to have here.
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Hi Richard
Maybe I’ve not been particularly clear.
I’m the registered keeper of the car in question (or was as it’s just been sold). I’ve missed all correspondence on a NIP and any further notices and then, presumably as I’ve updated my address details recently on my driving licence, received correspondence in the form of a further steps notice for, as I understand it, the FTF only, including a £1024 fine. As I didn’t know the ins and outs I’ve chased information on the original speeding offence thinking that’s what I need to use for the statutory declaration. The SJNP and witness statement (from the speed camera operator) I requested relate to and mention only the NIP.
So I’m anticipating there’s two offences I’ve been unaware of and therefore another SJNP for that too that I’ve also missed?
The only possibility of someone else returning the NIP is the new owners of my previous family home - unlikely as I believe they have not been keeping any mail that may have arrived there.
I’m currently not working due to illness.
Does this make any more sense?
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I don't think you've got to the bottom of this yet... Appears to me that there are 2 offences in play - the original for which you were convicted of FTF in your absence, and a second for which you have a SJPN - although how this comes to be in your name when you never received, or responded to, an NIP is a mystery. Could someone else have returned it 'on your behalf'?
There's only a point doing a SD for the FTF if you can get something out of it. If you were dual charged and you were the driver then you might be able to do the deal and get a speeding conviction only, which might reduce points and the fine and avoid the MS90 endorsement code. If you weren't on either count then you will get reconvicted (absent a defence which you don't appear to have), and the only benefit will be a reduction in the fine for the guilty plea - and if your earnings are higher than the amount assumed the fine might go up.
You need to try and get hold of the SJPN and witness statement for the FTF and try and figure out if it relates to a separate offence to the speeding one you have. What does the witness statement you mentioned above say?
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Hi there
Yes I believe I was the driver and have requested evidence although I’m led to believe there’s only a photo of the rear of the car. And if, unlikely though it is, it turns out not to be me, I’ll just have to accept the current situation.
So that will be a large sum I’ll have to find on top of what I’ve already paid. Sheesh!
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Apologies if I've missed it, but has the OP answered the second part of the question put by @RichardW as to whether he was the driver for the speeding charge?
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34mph in a 20 limit should see four or possibly five points and a fine of a week's net income (reduced by a third for your guilty plea). You will also pay a surcharge of 40% of the fine and about £90 prosecution costs.
But the main advantage is that the endorsement code for speeding is far less damaging o your insurance premiums than one for FtP. Insurers really hate that code and it would see your premiums increase considerably (perhaps double in the first year) for up o five years.
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Thank you so much. I can breathe a small sigh of relief. I’ll still anticipate up to six points and a large fine. And maybe claim back the original fine…I imagine I’m being a bit naive on that one!
Thanks again for your time and assistance.
Rich
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So the SD is for the FTP only…
Yes because it is the only offence for which you were convicted.
…and I need to get the original case number for this offence to put on the form?
Yes.
So I should just say ‘received further steps notice at new address’?
Yes.
Once I attend court, I offer to plead guilty to the speeding on the proviso the FTP is expunged?
You initially plead Not Guilty to both charges. Then, when given the opportunity (which will probably come when you are asked the reasons for your NG pleas) you make the offer to plead guilty to speeding only if the FtP charge is dropped. You may be able to see he prosecutor before you enter court to arrange this, but if no, do it as I suggested.
Sorry if I’m asking daft questions.
Questions are not daft if you don't know the answers. Presumably you came here to find out what you don't know.
I would engage a solicitor...
There is absolutely no need. This is a common procedure well known to all court users (prosecutors, magistrates and their legal advisors).
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Hi Newjudge and thanks for the response. Apologies for the follow up.
So the SD is for the FTP only and I need to get the original case number for this offence to put on the form? I only have the case number of the speeding offence and an account number off the Further steps notice which is what I used to pay the FTP fine.
The form asks to briefly explain how I found out (about the FTP not the speeding offence, I presume). So I should just say ‘received further steps notice at new address’?
Once I attend court, I offer to plead guilty to the speeding on the proviso the FTP is expunged?
Sorry if I’m asking daft questions.
I would engage a solicitor to aid but have been quoted quite a bit and my circumstances don’t quite allow such an outlay at the moment.
Thanks again for any further advice.
Rich
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So the SJPN is for speeding only.
You cannot be convicted of speeding as the police have no evidence that you were driving. There must be (somewhere) a SJPN which was sent to you, charging you with the FtP offence.
Anyway, first things first. You need to perform a statutory declaration to have the FtP conviction expunged. That will be to declare that you knew nothing of the proceedings that led to your conviction. No reasoning or explanation is required.
If you make your SD in court, the charge(s) should be put to you after it has been accepted. Provided you were the driver at the time, you should plead Not Guilty to both, but offer to plead guilty to speeding if, and only if, the FtP charge is dropped.
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Hi Richard
So the SJPN is for speeding only.
The further steps letter which is the only correspondence I’ve receives related to the fine (and points) for the FTF although there’s no specific information presumably because this is a chasing letter for non payment.
Hope this helps.
Thanks again.
Rich
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In the SJPN were you dual charged for FTF and speeding? Were you driving at the time of the offence?
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Hi there
Thank you for anyone taking the time to read and any responses. I’ll keep it as brief as possible.
Received a further steps notice in April which by the time I got it was over 10 days from the date of the notice. No mention of offence but £1,024 fine.
Paid fine to ensure no further action.
Rang HMCTS and found out the original offence was for 34mph in a 20 zone, August 2024.
Checked driving licence and I now have 6 points for failing to identify driver.
Have received info from the court for the original speeding offence - Single justice procedure notice and a witness statement.
Both dated November. I haven’t received the original NIP or photo evidence - I need to contact the police if I want those.
Anyway, the reason for me not receiving anything before the FSN was because I recently got divorced, had sold the family home quite a while ago, had a breakdown, lost my job. Still not back to work as I’m still suffering from stress and anxiety (not in receipt of any benefits). I had neglected to change the V5 to my new address. I’ve moved 3 times in the past 18 months since the house was sold but v5 was still registered at the family home. My life’s been in disarray. I know this isn’t an excuse but more as to whether I should include this information on the statutory declaration? Or will a brief ‘I neglected to change my address’ suffice and then explain further at court? I’m concerned I’ll screw the form up. I’ve got to get it in in the next couple of weeks to make the 21 day deadline from when I found out.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to best/worst case scenario in court?
I’ve had a clean licence for many years (I’m 52).
Hope this makes sense and thanks for any help anyone can offer.