Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Dawn on April 21, 2025, 02:37:03 pm
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As above, so below. Please do not join The Mugged Club.
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It always used to be like that. But regardless, we know they will reject whatever you write, and when you go to tribunal you forfeit the discount, so ultimately what's the difference? Are you prepared to take this all the way or not?
Don't be bullied by these con artists.
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@Hippocrates - I am in process of completing appeal of PCN to Harrow council, and on last page it says “if your representation is accepted or the notice was given in error, it will be cancelled and you will not have to pay. If we reject your representation you will have to pay the full fee (the amount will not be discounted” WHAT! I thought if you appealed within the 14 days to the council, and they rejected the appeal - you still had had the option to pay the £80 because the PCN was on hold whilst the appeal was being looked at! I now don’t know what to do and am left thinking “should I just pay the £80”!
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Thanks @Hippocrates. I will let you know what happens.
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Hi Dan and Hippocrates
I have looked at the images and CCTV footage online. The only footage is from the car entering the bus gate and you cannot see what is on the two signs either side of it. I have typed out the following draft and attached it - this is what I am thinking of sending to Harrow Council to appeal the PCN. I would be interested in your thoughts please? Thanks. Dawn
@Dawn. This is ok. Send it.
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Ok - Thanks Grant for this. I have read that the council usually reject them all at the initial appeal and hope people just pay up! I will put it in and see what happens. I am not feeling very hopeful though.
They don't just hope, they know that people then cough-up. It's called 'gaming the system'.
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Ok - Thanks Grant for this. I have read that the council usually reject them all at the initial appeal and hope people just pay up! I will put it in and see what happens. I am not feeling very hopeful though.
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At the adjudication stage you really need to have your ducks in a row, and will really benefit from having Hippocrates on your side, but at the appeal stage I think you can safely go with what you've written, because it looks like you're still at the stage of appealing to the Council. Even if presented with a watertight case, the council are very likely to reject, because they play the numbers and know a lot of people pay up at that stage even if they are on to a winner. After that you'll get a 'Notice to Owner', which is the point at which you can refer the case to the adjudicator.
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Hippocrates is the expert but I have to appeal to Harrow Council by tomorrow as am out the country after that, so I unfortunately, cannot wait until then.
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I like it but Hippocrates is the expert here. I'm following his direction and closely watching how Bustagate gets on this Tuesday.
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Hi Dan and Hippocrates
I have looked at the images and CCTV footage online. The only footage is from the car entering the bus gate and you cannot see what is on the two signs either side of it. I have typed out the following draft and attached it - this is what I am thinking of sending to Harrow Council to appeal the PCN. I would be interested in your thoughts please? Thanks. Dawn
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2240378030 and 2230339702. The crucial issue is their rather dated evidence. Looking at other case results is, as they say in Spanish, sometimes a "falso amigo". One never knows what the evidence is.
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Hi Dan
Sorry to hear they got you too. I am going to look at the tribunal page and see what I can gleam from there and try to put a case for my appeal to Harrow council. I will post once I have read it all. Hippocrates advice is useful so thanks too.
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That's certainly encouraging.
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We have won three: Two I did and MadMick Redux the other.
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That's hugely appreciated Hippocrates - I'll follow up on the thread I created for my PCN with you. Cheers!
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Hey Dawn
Unfortunately I'm in the same boat as you and got one today for this location (My PCN from Camrose Ave (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/harrow-camrose-avenue-bus-gate-33e-(april-2025)/))
I've had a look around on the forum and looks like the signage may not be compliant.
What's your take in this? Have you found anything else regarding the current tribunal - if that's successful we can certainly lean on that.
Thanks and good luck!
Dan
I am available to help.
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Thanks - only one I can find is from January 2025 and they appear to have gone to the ombudsman, but found nothing recent. I need help in knowing what to actually put down on the appeal to Harrow council that might actually work.
I am available to help. Just say the signage is unclear.
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Thanks can see them now
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Thanks
That link won't work for me. When I do the search on the site and use Cameron Avenue as the location I get these results - but when you look at them they are all for 'Failure to pay charge for Ultra Low Emission Zone'.
I can't find any that actually relate to this location - if you could find one that would be great. Cheers
That will be because at
https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:30::INITIALISE::Y::&cs=3OLW1K-bg2bAohOwOsZYwd2NckWTABwqTrmSchQDamgHyoAPzWgmWVT_CZRELDjCDeNLNp4EWARU5k_Y4ITnFRQ
You searched Road User Charging Adjudicators (RUCA) rather than Environment and Traffic Adjudicators (ETA)
A search on the latter from 'Camrose Avenue' (N.B. not Cambrose or Cameron!) start date 31/01/2023 reveals 33 allowed and 131 refused. Of course, not all cases will be for the same contravention.
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Thanks
That link won't work for me. When I do the search on the site and use Cameron Avenue as the location I get these results - but when you look at them they are all for 'Failure to pay charge for Ultra Low Emission Zone'.
I can't find any that actually relate to this location - if you could find one that would be great. Cheers
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There have been successful appeals at this notorious location. Have a look through the London Tribunals statutory register using "Camrose Avenue" as your search argument. You also need to enter a start date for the search. I owuld think 1st Jan 2023 should bring up cases. If you want to restrict to only successful appeals, type in the space at the bottom "appeal..." and you'll get a choice.
https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=NASSTATREG:50::INITIALISE::30:APP_SRV_CODE,P50_RETURN_PAGE:ETA,30&cs=3kCjUUH_2cBMePrDS0aOKraeIT1-x0XjIxi5BGXShuVF0PmKDr4LiihnmW2Wdzplh1h45V42dYn_S9WKu2xsHJQ
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Hey Dawn
Unfortunately I'm in the same boat as you and got one today for this location (My PCN from Camrose Ave (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/harrow-camrose-avenue-bus-gate-33e-(april-2025)/))
I've had a look around on the forum and looks like the signage may not be compliant.
What's your take in this? Have you found anything else regarding the current tribunal - if that's successful we can certainly lean on that.
Thanks and good luck!
Dan
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Really? So no one has been successful in the first stage and has either paid or gone to tribunal? If this is the case - I will still appeal to delay the payment of it, and if unsuccessful as it sounds I 100% will be; I then either pay the £80 or got tribunal and risk having to pay £160. Is that correct? Thanks.
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The council will reject whatever you say, so if you're worried about the £80 extra to take them to London Tribunals, you may as well give up now.
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Thanks - but this case is a tribunal. I at the stage of having recently received the PCN, so now have the choice to pay the £80 or appeal directly to Harrow council. They have not rejected anything yet. So I am needing help to appeal directly to them before the 14 days are up for me to pay the reduced rate of £80. You also sent a link relevant to new posts - but I have posted the PCN image and am not sure what else I am meant to update. Thanks.
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There are a number of successful appeals at this location on the London Tribunals statutory register. Case 2240515018 is of interest as our Hippocrates represented the appellant at the tribunal, but others are also of interest.
Can you also please read this:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and update your thread accordingly.
Also, ss it is Easter many of our regulars may be on holiday.
London Tribunals
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals
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Thanks - only one I can find is from January 2025 and they appear to have gone to the ombudsman, but found nothing recent. I need help in knowing what to actually put down on the appeal to Harrow council that might actually work.
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There is an on-going case for this location on the forum, so have a look at it. There may be a decision that the signage is not in accordance with the regulations. However, if you're minded to take the matter further, don't miss the deadline for paying or appealing on the PCN.
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Hi. I drove home from Wembley and received a PCN for using "Bus lane" in Cambrose avenue. I remember this section of road as it was really confusing (never driven here before). The road is two way traffic. I noticed that I was on top of a "give way" section with a concrete middle of the road divider between me and the other side, which I thought a bit strange as there was no reason I could see to give way to anything. On receiving the PCN, I have googled the street, and noted there is a road sign right on top of the entry to this section saying bus lane - but there is no prior warning before this, no normal road markings identifying it as a bus lane either. You are in it by the time you realise it and the only way to exit is to stop and reverse out - which is dangerous. The sign is also poorly lit and difficult to see in the dark. I want to appeal this PCN, and wondered if you are able to help me to do this please. I am not confident as reading up about this particular section - the council have made £1.3 million in fines, and usually reject appeals. Thanks in advance. Dawn
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