Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: S23 on September 25, 2023, 11:36:09 pm
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: cp8759 on November 04, 2023, 01:55:54 pm
Quite obviously none of the grounds for filing a witness statement apply, as your representations were out of time, so you cannot file a witness statement.
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: S23 on November 02, 2023, 03:01:22 pm
I do not have any proof of postage. I used a stamp and posted it in a red street letterbox
I have now received the Order of Recovery: link here (https://drive.proton.me/urls/XX4XR68F58#B49dLfas6Eba)
If any of the options on the witness statement are suitable, please let me know. Otherwise I will follow advice above to ask if I can pay a lower rate
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: cp8759 on October 22, 2023, 02:51:27 pm
@H C Andersen the problem is we can't even get as far as the adjudicator. S23 cannot file a witness statement with TEC declaring that he made representations in time, because that would be a contempt of court. That being the case, there is no lawful course of action that does not involve paying the penalty charge or ultimately ending up with bailiffs at the door (aside from maybe disposing of all assets and skipping the country).
The only thing I can suggest is a last-ditch plea to the authority to accept settlement at the £65 rate or at least at the £130 rate. The authority is under no duty to consider let alone accept such a request, but don't ask, don't get.
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: H C Andersen on October 21, 2023, 08:37:39 pm
We're getting our wires crossed IMO.
Was the keeper entitled as a matter of law to submit reps under reg. 5 (Part 2) late? Yes.
Were they entitled to 'make false reps? No.
Were the authority entitled to disregard? Yes.
Did they? No, they said they didn't receive.
IMO, while the OP doesn't have 'clean hands', this in itself does not relieve the authority of its duty nor remove the keeper's rights.
But when all is exposed, it is highly unlikely that the council would take action.
OP, what proof do you have that you submitted reps against the NTO? You cannot have proof of posting dated 17th, can you, so what proof do you have?
IMO, no proof means the adjudicator* would be entitled to decide not to register the authority's referral as an appeal, which would leave you owing the surcharged penalty.
*- the authority would, if notified by TEC that the OfR had been revoked, be required to refer the matter to the adjudicator who may issue directions. These are normally: show us your proof.
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: cp8759 on October 21, 2023, 07:24:22 pm
Yes, I didn't see a reason to date my correspondence any other way
Regulation 18 of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/576/regulation/18) is a good enough reason:
False representations 18.—(1) A person who—
(a) makes any representation under Part 2 or 3, or any provision of Schedule 1 so far as it relates to an appeal under regulation 7(1) or 10(1), that is false in a material particular, and (b) does so recklessly or knowing it to be false, commits an offence.
(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under paragraph (1) is liable on summary conviction to a fine.
Your representations were, by your own admission, out of time. They were also, by your own admission, false and misleading in a material particular. As a matter of fact and law, the authority was entitled to disregard them. You cannot now file a witness statement with the traffic enforcement centre, because that would be a contempt of court, which is punishable with imprisonment of up to two years.
I'm not sure why anyone would risk a criminal record for the sake of a parking ticket. I suggest you pay the penalty, that should ensure nobody has reason to look into this any further.
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: S23 on October 21, 2023, 01:02:46 pm
Yes, I didn't see a reason to date my correspondence any other way
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: spaceman on October 21, 2023, 12:25:42 pm
Since then a notice to owner (NTO) was served, however due to life events, I was unable to respond within the 28 day period.
Please post your reps that you submitted, albeit late, against the Notice to Owner.
Form TE9 does not seem to cover your circumstances: - /https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1094509/TE9.pdf
The text in the original appeal was re-sent (please see original post - spoiler tag) and dated the letter to be within the NTO period.
This might suggest that, if ignored by the authority as out-of-time or challenged by them that your reps to the NtO were not submitted in time, you will rely on your pre-dating these so they appear to have been submitted, by you, in-time.
Is this your intention?
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: S23 on October 20, 2023, 11:24:52 pm
Not sure, dated 23rd Aug so maybe 25-28th Aug?
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: cp8759 on October 20, 2023, 11:21:33 pm
When did you actually receive the notice to owner?
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: DancingDad on October 19, 2023, 03:22:05 pm
Council had options They could have accepted the challenge and dealt with it They could have rejected as late They say it never arrived. To me this situation is covered by the sent reps but got no reply ground on the Witness Statement.
I don't think it does, because that ground refers to the PCN, and the OP sent reps against that and received a rejection, but not the NtO.....
Post 4 suggested that OP sent same reps in reply to the NTO...late but sent?
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: Incandescent on October 19, 2023, 02:50:34 pm
Council had options They could have accepted the challenge and dealt with it They could have rejected as late They say it never arrived. To me this situation is covered by the sent reps but got no reply ground on the Witness Statement.
I don't think it does, because that ground refers to the PCN, and the OP sent reps against that and received a rejection, but not the NtO.
Quote
I was served a PCN for parking in a residents bay, however it was incorrectly served as there were misprints on the PCN itself (information missing). I appealed, however this was rejected and they supplied the missing information via response in the letter.
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: DancingDad on October 19, 2023, 02:01:13 pm
Council had options They could have accepted the challenge and dealt with it They could have rejected as late They say it never arrived. To me this situation is covered by the sent reps but got no reply ground on the Witness Statement.
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: S23 on October 19, 2023, 01:26:59 pm
Since then a notice to owner (NTO) was served, however due to life events, I was unable to respond within the 28 day period.
Please post your reps that you submitted, albeit late, against the Notice to Owner.
Form TE9 does not seem to cover your circumstances: - /https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1094509/TE9.pdf
The text in the original appeal was re-sent (please see original post - spoiler tag) and dated the letter to be within the NTO period.
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: S23 on October 19, 2023, 01:21:51 pm
You have over-cropped their response and we do not know what date it was sent: please tell us.
What is the online status of the PCN?
Others will be along to tell you how to deal with the order for recovery.
Quote
I sent it via 1st class postage stamp as tracking would not have helped.
For future reference post 1st.class at post office counter and obtain proof of posting (free).
Sorry - response was dated 02/10/23. Online status shows 'Charge certificate stage'
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: Incandescent on October 19, 2023, 12:51:20 pm
It seems to me this is the ley sentence: -
Quote
Since then a notice to owner (NTO) was served, however due to life events, I was unable to respond within the 28 day period.
Please post your reps that you submitted, albeit late, against the Notice to Owner.
Form TE9 does not seem to cover your circumstances: - /https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1094509/TE9.pdf
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: John U.K. on October 19, 2023, 12:42:34 pm
You have over-cropped their response and we do not know what date it was sent: please tell us.
What is the online status of the PCN?
Others will be along to tell you how to deal with the order for recovery.
Quote
I sent it via 1st class postage stamp as tracking would not have helped.
For future reference post 1st.class at post office counter and obtain proof of posting (free).
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: S23 on October 19, 2023, 12:15:43 pm
Post is slow at the moment and no-one (except you) can say when the NtO arrived.
I would go online, ignore the fact you might be late, and challenge on the basis that the mis-printed PCN is unlwaful and no penalty is due on the back of it. Attach a copy. The council have the right to ignore late representations but they can't be sure they are late so will probably respond. Do it now.
I posted it and also emailed them explaining that I made reps. However, they responded by post and simply stated they did not receive it - see here (https://drive.proton.me/urls/1TDEPAZ6X0#VGLZoQgFmgYu). I sent it via 1st class postage stamp as tracking would not have helped.
What should I do now?
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: cp8759 on September 30, 2023, 12:12:31 pm
I also realised the notice to owner provided no information on how to challenge, even though the body of the notice referred to a section of text on it. Not sure if this is much, but I added a line about it in too
Pages 3 and 4 of the notice to owner seem to cover that point?
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: S23 on September 29, 2023, 01:40:19 am
Post is slow at the moment and no-one (except you) can say when the NtO arrived.
I would go online, ignore the fact you might be late, and challenge on the basis that the mis-printed PCN is unlwaful and no penalty is due on the back of it. Attach a copy. The council have the right to ignore late representations but they can't be sure they are late so will probably respond. Do it now.
Thank you - I have repeated my previous letter but with registered keeper's details. I also realised the notice to owner provided no information on how to challenge, even though the body of the notice referred to a section of text on it. Not sure if this is much, but I added a line about it in too
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: mrmustard on September 26, 2023, 08:44:22 am
Post is slow at the moment and no-one (except you) can say when the NtO arrived.
I would go online, ignore the fact you might be late, and challenge on the basis that the mis-printed PCN is unlwaful and no penalty is due on the back of it. Attach a copy. The council have the right to ignore late representations but they can't be sure they are late so will probably respond. Do it now.
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: S23 on September 26, 2023, 12:14:42 am
How far out of the time window are you ? If it were me, I'd submit reps and explain why they have been submitted late. Your "life events" would need to be fairly serious, of course.
NTO is dated 23/08/23 and it is now 26/09/23. More than 28 days have passed.
I don't believe our life events are significant enough nor can I provide anything with any proof.
How should I submit reps in this case? (Ie. what should my new response be? I already stated my case in the original appeal shown in the spoiler tag)
Title: Re: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: Incandescent on September 26, 2023, 12:04:47 am
How far out of the time window are you ? If it were me, I'd submit reps and explain why they have been submitted late. Your "life events" would need to be fairly serious, of course.
Title: PCN incorrectly issued, NTO appeal date missed
Post by: S23 on September 25, 2023, 11:36:09 pm
Hi all,
I was served a PCN for parking in a residents bay, however it was incorrectly served as there were misprints on the PCN itself (information missing). I appealed, however this was rejected and they supplied the missing information via response in the letter.
Since then a notice to owner (NTO) was served, however due to life events, I was unable to respond within the 28 day period.
I will need two pieces of advice here: 1) How to proceed now that I've missed the 28 day appeal period of the NTO 2) The actual response in writing to the NTO
Documents/Timeline: PCN served 10/07/23 (https://drive.proton.me/urls/95Z25HQ6JC#51TAGQ0wR0tO)
Google street view link (https://goo.gl/maps/BxRv2hyQPun55rQQ8)