Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: afroditi on April 14, 2025, 12:00:51 pm
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You may as well try and get as much as you can to describe/prove the unloading of a package as the only other choice is probably to take it to the tribunal when they send the rejection (assuming they don't reoffer the discount). No point in paying £130 and not putting them through the tribunal.
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Original value of the order is £250 I should add - down to £102 with TK Maxx discounts.. if that means anything..
Thanks @stamfordman :)
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The value was £102 the box was large because it contained a double duvet, a duvet cover set, a round cushion, glass food container, and wardrobe hangers. The weight I cannot tell exactly, probably around 8-10kg?
I also just obtained an email from TK Maxx confirming the date and time of collection which proves that I collected a box less than an hour from the time of the PCN.
They couldn't share a screenshot from their system but they could put the information in an email.
I mean that should be enough?
I still don't understand why the PCN is not cancelled straight away based on the fact that all images from the CEO are taken within 2 minutes and the last image is showing the car leaving. That alone should be enough, don't know what I'm missing here.
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What was the shopping you picked up, how heavy and what size? Your best bet is probably to reconstruct the item and take a picture. Also what value.
There is no 10 mins grace for this. London Councils guidance has been 2 mins before and after a restriction ends/begins before issuing but it's not a rule.
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Hello everyone,
I received a response from the council today on this case saying the below:
We now have the registered keeper's consent to look at your case.
I note that you advise that you had parked/stopped outside your house to offload a heavy box I had just collected from TK Maxx.
We have carefully considered what you say but you have not provided enough evidence for us to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). Please see below for what you must do next.
The email you have sent in does not give details of the consignment.
You have these choices:
• We will reconsider your case if you send us a delivery note, a receipt/invoice for goods or a job sheet that shows a heavy box was in transit as stated. You have 14 days from the date of this letter being served to do this. Please send a photocopy (not the original) and quote your PCN number (see above).
• You can pay £130.00. You have 28 days from the date of this letter being served to do this. (It is now too late to pay at the discount rate.)
If you do nothing
If you do nothing, we will send you a formal Notice of Rejection letter saying that we have not cancelled your PCN.
I have already sent them proof of me being at the location before the time of the PCN, also an order placed with TK Maxx which was delivered to said store, not sure what else one could provide to prove that.
1. Does anyone know what kind of proof councils accept for unloading goods?
2. My question here from the beginning was whether it is legal to issue a parking ticket within the last 10 minutes of the parking restrictions ending? The CEO who usually works on my streets told me that this should be cancelled on that basis but I cannot find any reference to that from a legal standpoint to add to my appeal. If someone could help with this I would appreciate it.
Thanks again!
Afroditi
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As regards the penalty, penalties are not set by councils individually, they are set by London Councils and ratified by the Mayor of London and Secretary of State.
Did Haringey have external authority to depart from the London-wide increases?
https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/news-and-press-releases/2025/london-boroughs-raise-parking-and-traffic-pcn-levels-first-time-2011-0
https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2025-03/tec_-_agenda_and_papers_-_19_march_2025_-_final_1.pdf
Which arise from this report: https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-12/london_parking_and_traffic_enforcement_penalty_charges_consultation_analysis_report_2024_v2.pdf
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@Hippocrates thanks for your response, by uploading it you mean under the "contact us" tab?
The reason why I'm asking in detail is to make sure that the way I will do it will have the desired effect towards putting this back on hold.
p.s. the link you sent doesn't seem to point to a static page so not sure what the info was there.
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@H C Andersen Haringey was a bit late to the party and they increased charges a few days later as per this (https://www.haringey.gov.uk/parking/pcns-parking-traffic/charges-parking-traffic-pcns#:~:text=Charges%20are%20%C2%A3110%20or,goes%20up%20to%20%C2%A3175.) page, but very well spotted :)
Attached a picture of the letter without personal details.
Thank you!
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I see no photo of the car with the sign. For future reference, the website is still too general:
The Contact Us page: no grounds.
I usually get the registered keeper to produce a letter of authorisation in a pdf and upload it.
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Higher level penalties increased to £160 on 7 April. The date of contravention here was 8th.
Haringey deferred the increase to 14 April.
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Post their letter please.
And surely the penalty level is wrong.
Higher level penalties increased to £160 on 7 April. The date of contravention here was 8th.
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Thank you @stamfordman, I understood that, but I don't know what is the best way for the keeper to authorise me now, or to reword it to refer to me - how do we go about doing that?
It's not explained in their letter or on the PCN itself
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As it's a postal PCN it acts the same as a notice to owner and only the owner (presumed to be the keeper) can make reps.
The keeper can authorise you to make reps on their behalf, or you can just reword it to refer to the driver.
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Hello,
following up on this, I challenged the PCN explaining the situation and today I received an update stating the below:
"Although this Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) can be formally challenged, any challenge needs to be
made by the person we sent the PCN to, regardless of who the driver was."
So they ask the registered keeper to send it on my behalf, but on their platform (Haringey portal) there doesn't seem to be a way to proceed with this, attached here a picture showing the options.
Anybody knows what's the best way to proceed? (add the text that the registered keeper authorises me under the "contact us" tab or send them a 1st class letter?) - I would rather have all evidence online hence why I want to ask if there is an option other than the letter.
Also, the discounted period should still apply after that, correct?
Thanks a lot in advance.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Well you said:
The reason why he was not able to put the notice on the car is because I was leaving and he was rushing to create a ticket before I go.
In these situations should you take it to the tribunal it's your word against the CEO's (who will have made notes). If you can make the case that you would have accepted the PCN then you can do so.
Haringey will almost certainly reoffer the discounted penalty should they reject representations.
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@stamfordman thank you for explaining - he was by no means prevented, and this is why I kept standing where I was while he took the picture of the rear plate and after that point I entered the car and left as intended (all shown in the pictures).
Is the council not obliged to put this on hold if I send my representation - let's say today - and then after I receive their presumably notice of rejection I can still pay the reduced price?
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My take from what you say is the CEO was prevented from serving the windscreen PCN and the postal PCN is therefore properly served.
Observation time is not a grace period, just time councils guide CEOs on to assess if exempt activity is ongoing and is not mandatory.
Your best bet IMO is to apologise for preventing service but claim the exempt activity of (un)loading xxxx, which took only a few minutes.
The PCN date is 8 April and London-wide PCN amounts went up on 7 April (in this case to £160) but Haringey deferred the increase to today. So if you end up paying the discount you'll at least be saved a £15 increase.
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@stamfordman as explained in the description, I was standing by the car as I was ready to leave - the other person is the neighbour as described - I am really not sure why you seem to think there is a gesture that seems to be "rude", I don't know how that is assessed. In that moment we were both trying to explain to the CEO the obvious and we are both in shock by his unprofessional attitude at all levels.
The reason why he was not able to put the notice on the car is because I was leaving and he was rushing to create a ticket before I go. People don't casually stand next to their cars unless they are arriving or leaving, either way the CEO cannot force you to stay put so that they can issue a PCN without observing the 5 mins which he clearly did not observe! Have you read the description I shared above?
@John U.K. Thanks for clarifying, the box I unloaded was quite large yes but I don't have a picture of that anymore, only the order confirmation with the items that would give an idea of the size and weight of the box but I don't suppose this would by any means be more valid than the fact that a CEO did not follow proper procedure before issuing a PCN..
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The box is as big as all the other marked resident parking areas you see in the link you provided - unfortunately maps don't take me outside the exact location.
But why would I try to claim for unloading in case all (or some of) the above issues I have raised are valid?
I'm not sure if what you are saying is that what happened is absolutely fine and my only reason to claim can be due to unloading..
Thank you.
Not the box you parked in, but the box you unloaded and carried in...
to offload a box I had collected
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The PCN was sent by post because the council claims they weren't able to serve it on the car or to you.
The PCN time is 15:50. There is a council picture of two people standing by the car at 15:51 and one seems to making what could be a rude gesture.
So did the CEO attempt to give you a windscreen PCN or serve it on the car or could it be that he/she felt unable to do so because of the situation.
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The box is as big as all the other marked resident parking areas you see in the link you provided - unfortunately maps don't take me outside the exact location.
But why would I try to claim for unloading in case all (or some of) the above issues I have raised are valid?
I'm not sure if what you are saying is that what happened is absolutely fine and my only reason to claim can be due to unloading..
Thank you.
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Here?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/FJ4JtQDTQwo5Mjon7
How large was the box - you may be able to claim unloading?
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Link to the location is here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/UaunY1KT3Wbwr9K6A
Thank you!
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Please post a GSV link to the location.
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Hello and thank you in advance for all the help you are proving via this forum.
I am not the registered keeper of the vehicle and therefore I use hourly parking permits for now during the 2 hour parking restriction outside my house. Of course I am a named driver on the insurance just not the owner.
Summarising here key points to explain the situation as briefly as possible:
- I stopped outside my house at approx 15:45 to offload a box I had collected from Tottenham Hale so I can continue my journey without the risk of having the car broken into. (I have payment history on my phone to act as proof of that if needed at all)
- Some minutes later, I go outside to take the car and leave and my neighbour is telling me that a Civil Enforcement Officer had just scanned my number plate and she explained to him that I was just in and out and leaving (she had seen me going in with the box and I had said to her exactly that)
- I see the officer slowly walking towards me while I'm talking to the neighbour right next to the car as I am ready to depart
- The moment he arrives I say hello to him and explain that as my neighbour had said, I just dropped a box and I'm leaving
- He immediately cut me off telling me in a threatening/unprofessional tone "your ticket is already issued" and in that moment he starts taking pictures of the car to issue the ticket, and takes pictures of the number plate while I'm standing there in front of the car!
- That was literally 10 minutes before the parking restrictions ended and he rushed to issue the ticket before I leave
As you can see in the attached pictures he took, both myself and the neighbour are standing in front of the car in shock trying to explain the obvious.
He was not listening to anything, he was extremely rude. As you can also see in the pictures attached to the PCN, I took the car and left within 3 minutes of the moment he issued the ticket and therefore he never honoured the 5 minute observation before issuing the PCN for a resident bay.
By the way, he is not the assigned CEO on the street - the CEO who always attends the area had already been and this other officer seems to be going around during the last few minutes even though this part is covered by someone else and it's only a 2 hour window.
Things I want to ask:
1. First and foremost - is it legal to issue a PCN when the driver is present and ready to leave and all this in a timeframe less than 5 minutes? That feels more like bullying rather than anything else. I tried to find the CEO code of practice but the link is broken.
2. Can a PCN be issued within the last 10 minutes of the parking restriction?
3. The PCN doesn't clearly state that the ticket will be on hold while a representation is being considered and then the discounted price of £65 will still be applicable should they reject the representation - is that legal? Lack of this clarity might force someone to rush in paying the ticket that should be challenged.
4. Can it be that some councils might decide to not extend the discounted price of £65 after the representation is made? In other words, is it legal for them to do so? I saw that you have compiled a list of such councils but it was not clear to me if they are allowed to do that or not.
I have bought over 80 hourly visitor permits on my Haringey account and I have proof of purchase too, which proves I do use them otherwise I would not have wasted all that money to buy the permits. I have also raised a written complaint with the council for this specific officer and his unprofessional behaviour.
What would be your advice here?
@cp8759 also thought of tagging you because I understand you have previous experience with Haringey Council.
All documents attached here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Suuhrk1fWfvRIhk6tw3wQL1dRqPEIr5F?usp=drive_link
..but please feel free to let me know if not able to see them.
Thank you again.
Afroditi