Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: preciousb on April 11, 2025, 02:37:31 pm
-
Have you set up mail redirection...
Have you been to old house to get mail.
They will only send the NTO to the registered keeper's address. Did you tell them about the PCN and address? Have you changed the logbook address?
I've checked and the NTO has been sent. You need to call/email them and find out its date.
But you have a way to get this re-set if it's too late to make reps.
I set up mail redirection with Royal Mail yes.
Can't go to the old house to get mail as no one's living there yet.
I only specifically spoke to them about my permit.
I've changed logbook yes.
Right I'll get on it. Thank-you!
-
Have you set up mail redirection...
Have you been to old house to get mail.
They will only send the NTO to the registered keeper's address. Did you tell them about the PCN and address? Have you changed the logbook address?
I've checked and the NTO has been sent. You need to call/email them and find out its date.
But you have a way to get this re-set if it's too late to make reps.
-
Not quite as stamfordman has suggested.
If a motorist, and then owner, asserts that a sign was not in situ then the burden shifts to the council to rebut such a claim.
They have not done so IMO.
OP, I would write back as follows:
Dear Sir,
PCN *******
I refer to your letter dated 6 May rejecting my representations against the PCN. I will be taking the matter forward, to do which I need the following which were referenced in your letter but inexplicably not included:
'Our suspension records show that an advanced warning sign was placed at the location on 2 April.'
'As can be seen on the images provided the signage was in place on 2 April..'
I require a copy of the relevant extract from these 'suspension records' including the time the sign was erected. In addition, you did not include images taken on 2 April, the 'images provided' (three) are all dated 9 April. I require the images taken on 2 April.
Thank you.
Thanks for this. I had to move home rather unexpectedly and still recovering from the move, so I'm just seeing this.
I was expecting that the council would have sent a notice to owner by now but I haven't received one yet. Had to inform them of my new address to change my resident's permit, so they are aware but there's been radio silence.
I was thinking to contact them, explain that I haven't received the Notice to Owner despite informing them of my new address, asking them to confirm their records for my address and the status of the parking ticket.
Do you think that's worth doing as well as sending your message above?
-
Not quite as stamfordman has suggested.
If a motorist, and then owner, asserts that a sign was not in situ then the burden shifts to the council to rebut such a claim.
They have not done so IMO.
OP, I would write back as follows:
Dear Sir,
PCN *******
I refer to your letter dated 6 May rejecting my representations against the PCN. I will be taking the matter forward, to do which I need the following which were referenced in your letter but inexplicably not included:
'Our suspension records show that an advanced warning sign was placed at the location on 2 April.'
'As can be seen on the images provided the signage was in place on 2 April..'
I require a copy of the relevant extract from these 'suspension records' including the time the sign was erected. In addition, you did not include images taken on 2 April, the 'images provided' (three) are all dated 9 April. I require the images taken on 2 April.
Thank you.
-
Good to know. And yup...I'm willing to go all the way. Thank you both!
-
Yes, this is obviously silly given they are referencing pictures taken on the day of the contravention.
As can be seen on the images provided the signage was in place on the 02/04/2025 advising motorists of the upcoming suspension.
I must say this is your word here that this sign by your car only went up a few hours later but if you are absolutely sure then see it through. It certainly isn't in the bounds of impossibility that the council missed this signpost when signing the suspension and only rectified it on the day.
-
Councils refuse virtually all informal challenges, (>95%), because they know most people then cough-up to get the discount option. It's called 'gaming the system'.
There seems sufficient doubt about their response to form a good appeal case, but obviously, you have to forego the discount option. If it were me, I'd be taking them all the way. Councils are notoriously bad at signing parking suspensions, but with people coughing-up so readily, they never get called out.
-
@Incandescent
@H C Andersen
@stamfordman
-
As predicted, the council have rejected the challenge.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PkEpj0w8Bft0-mfyoQfKYlEeBKwc1KiM/view?usp=sharing
Two things they've mentioned that stick out to me:
1. 'When we suspend a bay, we put up large yellow advance warning signs adjacent to the bay, our suspension records show that an advance warning sign was placed at the location in question on the 02/04/2025.'
'Adjacent' suggests the warning signs were not on the actual bay. As mentioned previously, there were 1 or 2 signs further down the road but not where I parked or anywhere near it. I intentionally looked up and around to check at the time. A neighbour confirmed more signs were put up as they weren't there the day before they came. Also, they've said their 'records' show there was a sign there but they've failed to show proof.
2. 'As can be seen on the images provided the signage was in place on the 02/04/2025 advising motorists of the upcoming suspension.'
I'm confused as to what they were referring to as there were no images provided showing the signage in place on the 02/04/2025.
Either way, I'm generally not very active but I went out multiple times that week and what they've said is absolutely not true. Even one of the neighbours I saw on the day I came out to find my car with the ticket, confirmed this. Another neighbour on Cecil Road mentioned she didn't even see the signs at all. That's how quickly they went up and came down. I'm shocked at their blatant lies.
Would the next step be to wait for the notice to owner? And do you guys think this is even worth pursuing?
-
It looks OK to me. This is only an informal challenge, and most of these are just rejected by councils, because they know that if they do, most people just cough-up, (>95% of them). Only reps against Notices to Owner are looked at in any detail.
Got it. So in the event that they reject this, would I need to wait for the Notice to Owner and challenge again?
Or cough-up, of course !
Yes, this is a three-stage process, (1) informal challenge (2) formal representation (3) appeal at the adjudicators
The only unbiased place is (3). Why ? Because councils keep all the money if you pay, so reject virtually all challenges and most representations.
Great. It's always good to know what might happen next as I've never gone past making an informal challenge. Thanks for this. They've actually responded and so I'll be posting that next.
-
OP, sorry to be sharp, but: Stop wasting time and submit your challenge!
Let's worry about what happens later....later.
I'd already submitted the challenge at that point. Was simply asking a question. ;D
-
It looks OK to me. This is only an informal challenge, and most of these are just rejected by councils, because they know that if they do, most people just cough-up, (>95% of them). Only reps against Notices to Owner are looked at in any detail.
Got it. So in the event that they reject this, would I need to wait for the Notice to Owner and challenge again?
Or cough-up, of course !
Yes, this is a three-stage process, (1) informal challenge (2) formal representation (3) appeal at the adjudicators
The only unbiased place is (3). Why ? Because councils keep all the money if you pay, so reject virtually all challenges and most representations.
-
OP, sorry to be sharp, but: Stop wasting time and submit your challenge!
Let's worry about what happens later....later.
-
It looks OK to me. This is only an informal challenge, and most of these are just rejected by councils, because they know that if they do, most people just cough-up, (>95% of them). Only reps against Notices to Owner are looked at in any detail.
Got it. So in the event that they reject this, would I need to wait for the Notice to Owner and challenge again?
-
Nice one. Thanks for the feedback all
-
+1.
PCN dated 9th.
14-day period ends 22nd.
IMO, your draft looks good to go....other than delete 'formally' in first main para. These are informal but all you really need to say is challenge.
-
It looks OK to me. This is only an informal challenge, and most of these are just rejected by councils, because they know that if they do, most people just cough-up, (>95% of them). Only reps against Notices to Owner are looked at in any detail.
-
Morning all
Happy Easter! :)
Just bumping this up as I'm getting closer to the deadline for challenging this.
I'd be grateful for some feedback on my informal letter draft above please.
Thanks
-
It's an informal challenge at this stage and is far too long and confrontational.
Just say you parked right by the parking sign with the driver's door next to the sign and there was no suspension sign on the post at about 8:30pm the evening before and ask them to check if a late sign was put up, in which case you parked legally and the PCN must be cancelled.
You haven't lost anything with the relocation (which was authorised by the PCN) but remind them the car has a BB permit.
Their policy does say about BB holders:
If removal is absolutely necessary, and the driver of the vehicle cannot be located within a reasonable time, the vehicle will be moved to a position nearby where there is no hazard or obstruction.
So were you at home at the time.
Wait for others to comment as there may be something else
+1.
Your informal reps are way over the top and repetitive.
They were entitled to move your car based upon the evidence available at the time.
If you're correct in that the only traffic sign within the suspended area did not carry a suspension sign when you parked and this is accepted by the council then you'll succeed.
If not, then you won't.
IMO, you should also ask the council questions, namely:
Is it the council's policy to record (take photos) of suspension signs when erected?
If so and these representations are rejected then please provide proof of **** prior to 8.30pm 8 April. If photos are not available then the council must explain why they have departed from their regular practice in this case.
No-one takes photos of traffic signs without suspension notices, why would they?
Please see new draft below:
Dear Waltham Forest Council Parking Services,
I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) FR62791853 issued for the alleged contravention of "21s Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space" on Cecil Road on Wednesday, 09/04/2025.
I parked my vehicle on Cecil Road at approximately 8:30 PM on Tuesday, 08/04/2025. My driver's side door was adjacent to the parking sign for the bay, and at that time, there was no yellow suspension sign displayed on the post.
Given the absence of clear signage indicating a suspension when I parked, I believe the PCN has been issued incorrectly. I request that you investigate whether a suspension sign was erected after this time. If so, I parked legally, and the PCN should be cancelled.
For your information, I am a valid Blue Badge permit holder. I note your policy regarding the relocation of vehicles belonging to Blue Badge holders in suspended bays, which states that removal will only occur if absolutely necessary and the vehicle will be moved to a nearby, non-obstructive location.
To assist with your investigation, I would appreciate answers to the following questions:
1. Is it the council's policy to record (take photos) of suspension signs when they are erected?
2. If so, and if this challenge is rejected, please provide photographic evidence of the suspension sign being in place on the relevant post prior to 8:30 PM on Tuesday, 08/04/2025.
3. If photographic evidence is not available, please explain why the council departed from its regular practice in this specific instance.
I look forward to your prompt response and a fair reconsideration of this challenge based on the lack of visible suspension signage at the time of parking.
-
+1.
Your informal reps are way over the top and repetitive.
They were entitled to move your car based upon the evidence available at the time.
If you're correct in that the only traffic sign within the suspended area did not carry a suspension sign when you parked and this is accepted by the council then you'll succeed.
If not, then you won't.
IMO, you should also ask the council questions, namely:
Is it the council's policy to record (take photos) of suspension signs when erected?
If so and these representations are rejected then please provide proof of **** prior to 8.30pm 8 April. If photos are not available then the council must explain why they have departed from their regular practice in this case.
No-one takes photos of traffic signs without suspension notices, why would they?
Sorry just seeing your message. This is great. I really appreciate it.
I understand that most people wouldn't take pictures but after my experience, I will be in future!
Following an unsuccessful informal rep the last time a similar incident happened, I'd referenced their response for this one as I wanted to make sure I covered all bases. But after yours and stamfordman's feedback, I'll redraft and come back with it.
Thank-you
-
It's an informal challenge at this stage and is far too long and confrontational.
Just say you parked right by the parking sign with the driver's door next to the sign and there was no suspension sign on the post at about 8:30pm the evening before and ask them to check if a late sign was put up, in which case you parked legally and the PCN must be cancelled.
You haven't lost anything with the relocation (which was authorised by the PCN) but remind them the car has a BB permit.
Their policy does say about BB holders:
If removal is absolutely necessary, and the driver of the vehicle cannot be located within a reasonable time, the vehicle will be moved to a position nearby where there is no hazard or obstruction.
So were you at home at the time.
Wait for others to comment as there may be something else
Yes I was at home. I appreciate that feedback. I'll wait to see what others comment too.
Cheers!
-
+1.
Your informal reps are way over the top and repetitive.
They were entitled to move your car based upon the evidence available at the time.
If you're correct in that the only traffic sign within the suspended area did not carry a suspension sign when you parked and this is accepted by the council then you'll succeed.
If not, then you won't.
IMO, you should also ask the council questions, namely:
Is it the council's policy to record (take photos) of suspension signs when erected?
If so and these representations are rejected then please provide proof of **** prior to 8.30pm 8 April. If photos are not available then the council must explain why they have departed from their regular practice in this case.
No-one takes photos of traffic signs without suspension notices, why would they?
-
It's an informal challenge at this stage and is far too long and confrontational.
Just say you parked right by the parking sign with the driver's door next to the sign and there was no suspension sign on the post at about 8:30pm the evening before and ask them to check if a late sign was put up, in which case you parked legally and the PCN must be cancelled.
You haven't lost anything with the relocation (which was authorised by the PCN) but remind them the car has a BB permit.
Their policy does say about BB holders:
If removal is absolutely necessary, and the driver of the vehicle cannot be located within a reasonable time, the vehicle will be moved to a position nearby where there is no hazard or obstruction.
So were you at home at the time.
Wait for others to comment as there may be something else
-
So you parked, saw the usual parking sign and that's it.
Draft a challenge and post here.
Ok sure. Please see draft below:
Challenge to Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) FR62791853 - Vehicle Registration EK18DZX
Dear Waltham Forest Council Parking Services,
I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) FR62791853 issued for the alleged contravention of "21s Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space" on Cecil Road on Wednesday, 09/04/2025.
I believe this PCN has been issued incorrectly for the following reasons:
1. Lack of Adequate Signage: I parked my vehicle on Cecil Road at approximately 8:30 PM on Tuesday, 08/04/2025. At this time, there was no visible yellow sign or any other indication that the parking bay was suspended. I carefully checked for parking restrictions before leaving my vehicle and found none. I only became aware of the suspension and the PCN when I saw the ticket and clamp/removal notices on Thursday, 10/04/2025.
2. No Prior Notice of Suspension: I did not receive any prior notification of the suspension of this parking bay, either through on-street signage at the time of parking or via any public announcements. As a responsible motorist, I rely on clear and visible signage to understand parking regulations. The absence of such signage at the time of parking renders the enforcement of this suspension unfair and potentially unlawful.
3. Unauthorised Movement of My Vehicle: I have spoken with a resident of Cecil Road who informed me that they witnessed my vehicle being moved from its original parking location further up the road on Tuesday to the location where I found it on Thursday afternoon. If my vehicle was moved by council personnel or their agents after I had parked it legally (due to the absence of suspension signage), then the subsequent PCN for being parked in a suspended bay at the new location is invalid. The council cannot penalise me for being parked in a location to which my vehicle was moved without my knowledge or consent, especially if the bay was not clearly suspended when I initially parked.
4. Blue Badge Holder Status: I am a registered Blue Badge holder. While I recognise that Blue Badge holders are not exempt from suspended parking restrictions, the fundamental issue here is the lack of clear and visible notification of the suspension at the time of parking. My Blue Badge entitles me to certain parking concessions where permitted, and I would have adhered to any clearly displayed suspension notice. However, without such a notice being present when I parked, I had no way of knowing the bay was suspended.
5. I cannot comply with restrictions that are not clearly communicated at the point of parking. While I acknowledge that a suspension may have been in place, its validity concerning my vehicle depends on whether adequate and timely notification of this order was provided to motorists. The absence of a visible yellow suspension sign at the time of parking directly contradicts the requirement for clear communication of such restrictions.
6. I request photographic or other evidence demonstrating the presence and clear visibility of the suspension sign at approximately 8:30 PM on Tuesday, 08/04/2025.
Based on the lack of visible suspension signage at the time of parking, the alleged unauthorised movement of my vehicle, and the absence of prior notification, I respectfully request that this Penalty Charge Notice be cancelled. I look forward to your prompt response and a fair reconsideration of my case.
-
So you parked, saw the usual parking sign and that's it.
Draft a challenge and post here.
-
They will have checked the online permit type and then abandoned impounding.
What happened before?
Councils do sometimes put up suspensions very late in the day but here it's just a few hours. Do you recall actually looking at the sign?
As a blue badge holder you also have a higher call on discretion.
Oh ok.
Previous situation - https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/waltham-forest-code-02a-temporary-traffic-order-cecil-road-permit-holders-only-b/
There was no sign where I parked. I'm 100% sure about that. I just wish I'd taken a picture of that pole when I parked now.
-
They will have checked the online permit type and then abandoned impounding.
What happened before?
Councils do sometimes put up suspensions very late in the day but here it's just a few hours. Do you recall actually looking at the sign?
As a blue badge holder you also have a higher call on discretion.
-
I presume the BB was on display - I haven't checked all the pics.
If so this only tells us you were in contravention but they couldn't impound but only relocate.
If you are adamant there was no suspension sign right by you when you parked you can say this is the case and ask for cancellation. And see what they say.
I have a Blue Badge resident permit so don't have to display a Blue Badge. This has happened before so I'm worried they won't budge like last time tbh but I'll try that then. Thank-you.
-
I presume the BB was on display - I haven't checked all the pics.
If so this only tells us you were in contravention but they couldn't impound but only relocate.
If you are adamant there was no suspension sign right by you when you parked you can say this is the case and ask for cancellation. And see what they say.
-
You're a resident permit holder but not a blue badge holder? They don't impound cars with blue badges.
I am a blue badge holder yes. Interesting...I didn't know that
-
You're a resident permit holder but not a blue badge holder? They don't impound cars with blue badges.
-
Were you definitely outside 11-17.
Waltham Forest likes towing to its pound so that they relocated instead could mean they forgot to sign that post. Or it could mean their pound was full.
Yes I was directly outside number 11. That sign post is in-between house numbers 11 and 13.
-
Were you definitely outside 11-17.
Waltham Forest likes towing to its pound so that they relocated instead could mean they forgot to sign that post. Or it could mean their pound was full.
-
The council's pics are coming up very slowly - I'll have a look later.
So they relocated the car rather than impound it - are you a resident permit holder?
Thanks for having a look. Yes I'm a resident permit holder and they relocated the car. A neighbour saw them do it as she ran out to stop them from taking hers. She's actually in the background of the pictures so she was definitely there. Unfortunately she didn't know me at the time but has my number now! Apparently there were 2 or 3 other cars taken before mine to be impounded, but mine got left as there was no space for them to take it - thank God! I'm definitely grateful for that.
There are about 60 pics but one shows your car right by the suspension sign on a parking sign post. It seems unlikely it went up after you parked at 20:30 the night before but possible. As the drivers side was right by the post it would seem unlikely to have missed it.
The contravention is technically wrong as it's a permit bay not a shared use bay.
(https://i.imgur.com/FxRpEz5.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/adEYurg.png)
Ye I was shocked at how many pictures they took myself. The sign definitely wasn't there the night before on the Tuesday. There were 1 or 2 signs further down the road but not where I parked or anywhere near it. I intentionally looked up and around to check at the time. A neighbour confirmed more signs were put up as they weren't there the day before they came.
So with it being a permit bay and not a shared use bay should I appeal based on that?
-
There are about 60 pics but one shows your car right by the suspension sign on a parking sign post. It seems unlikely it went up after you parked at 20:30 the night before but possible. As the drivers side was right by the post it would seem unlikely to have missed it.
The contravention is technically wrong as it's a permit bay not a shared use bay.
(https://i.imgur.com/FxRpEz5.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/adEYurg.png)
-
The council's pics are coming up very slowly - I'll have a look later.
So they relocated the car rather than impound it - are you a resident permit holder?
-
Good afternoon all,
If anyone can help with some good points or advice to help me with the following please, I'd be so grateful:
WALTHAM FOREST COUNCIL
Cecil Road - Wednesday 09/04/25
CONTRAVENTION: 21s Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space
- Saw ticket + clamp / removal notices on Thursday 10/04/25.
- No notice of suspension was given through signage and I can't find any public announcements.
- Sign wasn't there when I parked around 8.30pm the previous evening.
- Looking at the images of my car (link below), the sign was not there when I parked around 8.30pm the previous evening (Tuesday night).
- Someone living on the road said she saw them move my car from where I'd parked it further up the road on Tuesday to where I found it on Wednesday.
Streetview location:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/SAar1ViRmUUeYHF77
Images:
Ticket 1 - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kYYjDQMAoBs2AhBDvWiRgIS1kdKYFOWQ/view?usp=sharing
Clamp removal notice / Re-positioned notice - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kYILED-Nd-YaV7YVhRXoMnQ36hKCTQV3/view?usp=sharing
Images of car on the day can be viewed here:
https://walthamocm.itsvc.co.uk/
Thank-you!