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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Doctordoctor on September 24, 2023, 11:19:10 am

Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on October 02, 2023, 10:05:19 pm
I understand. Thank you for your help
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: cp8759 on October 02, 2023, 09:45:57 pm
Did you mean to say ‘…nor can the turn RIGHT arrow embedded into the traffic light array…’
Yes, I have fixed that now.

Also is it possible to add to the grounds for representation by saying ‘that the signs embedded on the traffic lights affecting the proposed offending vehicle are not shown in your evidence and the vehicle is therefore not subject to penalty given the evidence you have provided’?
No, that is not a ground of appeal.

The video evidence only shows the front of the vehicle, but not the sign on the traffic light that the vehicle crossed. The lights could say absolutely anything!!
They could, but the council will have library photos showing what they actually show.
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on October 02, 2023, 06:53:07 pm
Hi @cp8759,

Could you please check the last sentence of the draft representation.

‘At the location captured by your camera, there are no restrictions or prohibitions on vehicles changing lane at any stage, nor can the turn left arrow embedded into the traffic light array have the effect you think it does: if it did, then all traffic including traffic in the left-hand lane would be required to turn right.‘

Did you mean to say ‘…nor can the turn RIGHT arrow embedded into the traffic light array…’

Also is it possible to add to the grounds for representation by saying ‘that the signs embedded on the traffic lights affecting the proposed offending vehicle are not shown in your evidence and the vehicle is therefore not subject to penalty given the evidence you have provided’?

The video evidence only shows the front of the vehicle, but not the sign on the traffic light that the vehicle crossed. The lights could say absolutely anything!!

I look forward to your advice as this may have an effect on all PCN’s issued at this junction as, it would seem, all PCN’s were likely issued based on this camera as evidence.

Thanks again for your time.
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: cp8759 on October 02, 2023, 11:47:22 am
Am I ok to click the links in your post above without clicking the links in your private message to avoid disturbing the click count?
Yes.
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on October 01, 2023, 11:58:52 am
Am I ok to click the links in your post above without clicking the links in your private message to avoid disturbing the click count?
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: cp8759 on October 01, 2023, 12:27:19 am
Thanks so much. I’m presuming I select the ‘ground for representation’:

‘There was no contravention of a prescribed Order/failure to comply with an indication on a sign/contravention of a lorry ban order (2)’?
Yes.
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 30, 2023, 06:41:42 am
Thanks so much. I’m presuming I select the ‘ground for representation’:

‘There was no contravention of a prescribed Order/failure to comply with an indication on a sign/contravention of a lorry ban order (2)’?

I don’t believe any of the other ‘grounds for representation’ fit the case.
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: cp8759 on September 29, 2023, 10:58:20 pm
That is correct, Ealing usually reoffers the discount so you might as well have a go.

Draft challenge:

Dear London Borough of Ealing,

I challenge liability for PCN EA58950783 on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. In order to create an enforceable restriction, the council is required to provide segregated lanes, otherwise there is no impediment to a motorist lawfully switching lanes at any time (as this is not prohibited).

An example of a correct layout is found for instance on Filton Road in Bristol, I refer you to the images at LINK1 LINK2 and LINK3 which illustrate the point.

At the location captured by your camera, there are no restrictions or prohibitions on vehicles changing lane at any stage, nor can the turn right arrow embedded into the traffic light array have the effect you think it does: if it did, then all traffic including traffic in the left-hand lane would be required to turn right.

In the circumstances, the alleged contravention did not occur.

Yours faithfully,

I will PM you some links to put in the representation, they will redirect to https://imgur.com/a/ncZLWjw https://imgur.com/a/5rObDyZ and https://imgur.com/a/us9bIvv but if you give them the links I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at them or not (obviously do not click on the links I PM you as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on them, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 29, 2023, 10:39:01 pm
I can draft a technical challenge if you want, basically we can try and catch the council out for failing to consider supporting evidence.

@cp8759 I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.

Thanks again for your all your support everyone.
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 27, 2023, 02:46:11 pm
Thanks. My understanding is you don’t lose the discount by submitting a representation so maybe it’s worth trying in the initial phase. Am I correct?
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: H C Andersen on September 27, 2023, 02:40:45 pm

The road marking of an arrow to the left, right or straight on is advisory. However, when accompanied by a marking stating right turn or whatever (as GSV shows here)it becomes compulsory.

OP, don't risk the discount on arguing the contravention itself.Even if you were forced into this lane then you were obliged to turn right, you cannot take it upon yourself to go your own way.
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 27, 2023, 02:17:23 pm
Out of interest is there any rule that a blue arrow has to be used in a segregated lane?
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 27, 2023, 02:15:55 pm
That would be amazing kind sir. Between council’s viciously raising revenue through the aggressive issue of PCN’s and APCOA parking refusing to issue NHS staff with staff parking permits in a timely manner (if at all!), I am finding myself with an increasing number of grey hairs and an unwanted receding hairline!

You all really are angels to the general public that find themselves helpless in these situations.

Thank you
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: cp8759 on September 26, 2023, 10:20:02 pm
I can draft a technical challenge if you want, basically we can try and catch the council out for failing to consider supporting evidence.
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 25, 2023, 11:22:13 pm
I totally agree.

Are there any important points I should consider making in my representation that may favour an overturning of the penalty charge notice?
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: cp8759 on September 24, 2023, 07:09:10 pm
The blue signs are mandator route signs. The problem is that normally you'd expect them to be used in a segregated lane, such as here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/k8rqvJ71KXyG2u8F9
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: John U.K. on September 24, 2023, 07:04:15 pm
@CP
Quote
Importantly the arrows on the road surface are only advisory.

The OP recalls going southbound along Greenford Road. That would mean passing these signs on the traffic lights
with turn right light and blue turn right.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/1kx1G7cmwHxdZcr96

Similar signs are at the other junctions. Still only advisory?
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: cp8759 on September 24, 2023, 06:52:26 pm
I suppose it all comes down to whether you're willing to risk the full amount at the tribunal.
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 24, 2023, 06:20:23 pm
Thank you @cp8759 for posting the video. I really appreciate your effort.
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 24, 2023, 06:17:19 pm
I’m keen to see if it is possible to draft a good appeal/representation and see what happens. I think that is probably about as far as I am willing to take it, but I am keen to ‘hammer’ Ealing’s authority if they are taking the public for ‘a ride’ in any way.

I have seen some council’s happy to dish out PCN’s to drivers who park in front of a dropped kerb stating that they are there to serve vulnerable members of the community and driver’s should be aware as the law is written in the driving manual.

However, when people petition to put a line in front of the kerb as a preventative measure, with the same intent of protecting vulnerable members of the community and assisting them with crossing the road, the council resists, presumably because the site is too much of a revenue generator!

It comes across that the welfare of those vulnerable individuals means very little to them, and they’re just being used as an excuse to take money off of the general public…which is blatantly wrong in my humble opinion which is why i question each and every motive made a council, especially when it comes to distributing PCN’s!
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Pastmybest on September 24, 2023, 05:56:00 pm
This location has mixed results at tribunal a few win and just as many lose with the argument that the contravention did not occur
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: cp8759 on September 24, 2023, 05:45:03 pm
Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJEWT7OSKgM

Importantly the arrows on the road surface are only advisory. You have until 4 October to submit representations and preserve the discount.
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 24, 2023, 12:55:14 pm
The other reason I am keen to overturn the penalty charge notice issued by Ealing council is down to my experience of receiving a penalty charge notice from them in the past. In that instance, I accidentally turned right on a ‘no right turn’ road as the sign indicating no right turn was not clearly visible and was covered in moss, and the road markings were obstructed by a van, parked over them, stationed there on a double yellow line.

I paid the fine as I was afraid that I would no longer be eligible for the discount if I submitted an appeal. The council responded by saying ‘something’ along the lines of that they took on board the mitigating circumstances, but given that the fine had been paid that the matter was now closed.

I was fuming! I couldn’t believe the arrogance of the council in their response at the time!

As a result I am an advocate of any organisation, like yours, that helps the general public to seek justice against these ‘behemoth’ that prey on vulnerable members of the community!
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 24, 2023, 12:37:20 pm
Hi John. Yes. But I indicated (as you can see in the video) with the intention of moving into the next lane along once I realised it was right turn only.

I’ve never heard or seen this traffic contravention before and it makes me wonder how hard Ealing are working to issue PCN’s as, when I went back to visit the road where the alleged incident took place, it looked like there were cameras almost every 30-50m. Some for bus lanes and then there were these ones too.

It gave me the impression that this is a ‘gold mine’ of a road for council revenue!!
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: John U.K. on September 24, 2023, 12:03:15 pm
Saves having to wade through the adverts!
(https://i.ibb.co/vJK6T1q/IMG-3172.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0fdR6q2)

(https://i.ibb.co/xq4ybZJ/IMG-3173.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b5fxVtz)

(https://i.ibb.co/YddBBRq/IMG-3174.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vdd44wK)

(https://i.ibb.co/m4q8W8N/IMG-3175.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WfytJtV)


I fear videos are bejond my pay-grade, but someone will sort it for you.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/WQKFUcpfKqn5vM8S8
Am I right in thinking your were in the r-h right-turn only lane but went straight on?
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 24, 2023, 11:57:26 am
I’m afraid I am struggling to convert the video to a postable format. The link to the PCN evidence video is as follows:

https://viewmypcn.co.uk/default.aspx?r=59c201257df136c64ed578c64cb635d0704aa7f4

If there is any way an expert can help post this I would be very grateful otherwise I can post the PCN number and vehicle reg in a separate post if it helps.

Again thank you all for your support.
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 24, 2023, 11:51:26 am
It does feel like it was this location heading Southbound along the Greenford road:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/GC1qTMbkQ33exYAaA
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 24, 2023, 11:45:25 am
The PCN images can be viewed here:

https://ibb.co/0fdR6q2
https://ibb.co/b5fxVtz
https://ibb.co/vdd44wK
https://ibb.co/WfytJtV
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 24, 2023, 11:33:06 am
Thanks John,

The reg number and PCN are on the image. I’ll try and get the video uploaded if I can otherwise the link to the video above should work I would hope, but I’ll see what I can do to make it easier to view for everyone
Title: Re: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: John U.K. on September 24, 2023, 11:23:42 am
I've just posted this at PPP, so crossed wuth yours here

In all the years PPP has been running, (I've been a member for a decade) I've never heard of any problems with disclosing the reg mark and PCN no. for Council tickets. Soi I wouldn't worry.

For posting images of documents and photos I find https://imgbb.com/ easiest to use, as long as one scrolls down foir each image and copies the BBCode for each and paste it in the post here.
For the video use an external site such as youtube and post a link here, or one of the experts will do it for you.
For GSV links see the instructions at
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

------
EDIT
Need remaining pages of PCN - often mistakes in small print.

Somewhere near here?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/GC1qTMbkQ33exYAaA
Please move around until you get the correct view and then post the link.
Title: Ealing alleged traffic contravention of 32JD
Post by: Doctordoctor on September 24, 2023, 11:19:10 am
Hi everyone,

Thanks for taking the time to read this and offering your support.

I was wondering if I could seek your expert help. I yesterday received a PCN with an alleged traffic contravention of 32JD.

The PCN states:

‘The council of the London Borough of Ealing believes that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle registration mark……for the alleged traffic contravention of 32JD - failing to proceed in the direction shown by the arrow on the blue sign (proceeding in the wrong direction) in Greenford Road/The Broadway Ruislip Road Greeenford (906) on the 12/9/23 at 18.48’


Below is the video from the council relating to the PCN which also has a link to images.

https://viewmypcn.co.uk/default.aspx?r=59c2...cb635d0704aa7f4


I read somewhere else in the forum on PepiPoo, that a successful appeal was permitted when stating that the motorist was:

‘…plainly waiting for the opportunity to move into the correct lane in order to drive straight ahead‘

Am I correct?

Is a driver not allowed to change lanes anymore?!!!

No representation has been sent as of yet by myself. I was looking for your advice before sending one in a bid to try and make a successful representation.

I await your response with great anticipation, and thank you for taking the time to help.

Your advice, help and support is greatly appreciated.

Thank you

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