Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: sooty12113 on September 23, 2023, 10:54:12 am

Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on January 24, 2024, 09:15:44 pm
Just an update to say I won my appeal on a procedural irregularity as the Council did not consider the ground that offering payment via a premium rate number was improper.

Many thanks to cp8759 for his advice
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: cp8759 on October 31, 2023, 10:02:38 pm
I have sent you a PM (https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=pm).
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on October 30, 2023, 06:24:36 pm
Thanks I'll take you up on your kind offer to represent me although I'd also like to attend remotely to observe, I'll be in touch once I receive further details
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: cp8759 on October 29, 2023, 08:36:07 pm
  Thanks for getting back to me, the issue for me if it goes to the tribunal is the cost, this is only to save what is now a £50 ticket (£25 option hasn't been reinstated, it would mean a day off work plus a 200 mile round trip, assuming I have to attend, would such expenses/  costs plus yours be recoverable ?
@sooty12113 all your assumptions are wrong, the Traffic Penalty Tribunal does all hearings on Microsoft Teams so there's no need to take time off work let alone travel anywhere (you can join on a web browser if you don't have it installed), and they're only listed for 30 minutes (this isn't a High Court hearing).

That being said, if I represent you there's no need for you to attend at all. If you really wanted to we could arrange for the hearing to be during your lunch break, but it's really not necessary.
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: John U.K. on October 29, 2023, 03:13:13 pm
  Thanks for getting back to me, the issue for me if it goes to the tribunal is the cost, this is only to save what is now a £50 ticket (£25 option hasn't been reinstated, it would mean a day off work plus a 200 mile round trip, assuming I have to attend, would such expenses/  costs plus yours be recoverable ?

First, you do not have to physically attend, most hearings are by telephone these days.
Second, if you take up CP's offer to represent you, he will take care of things and you need not even be on the telephone.
If you are minded to accept, send him a PM.
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on October 29, 2023, 01:42:41 pm
  Thanks for getting back to me, the issue for me if it goes to the tribunal is the cost, this is only to save what is now a £50 ticket (£25 option hasn't been reinstated, it would mean a day off work plus a 200 mile round trip, assuming I have to attend, would such expenses/  costs plus yours be recoverable ?
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: cp8759 on October 29, 2023, 12:53:41 pm
Evidence that they haven't looked at any of the supporting decisions:

(https://i.imgur.com/oktSUSm.png)
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: cp8759 on October 29, 2023, 12:46:05 pm
What a nonsense rejection. I've checked and they've not opened any of the links, so they've not considered any of your supporting evidence, that is a procedural impropriety that we can add to all the other grounds.

The reference to Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 is completely misguided, as they'd know if they'd bothered to read the Paul Bateman decision, but obviously they couldn't be asked.

Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on October 26, 2023, 11:03:18 am
1. Our reasons for rejecting your representations:
The Penalty Charge Notice was correctly issued. Your vehicle was not parked
correctly within the markings of the bay or space. See images below taken by the
CEO

The points you make have been noted and whilst you say that there is no indication
that vehicles must park within the painted bays, it is not arguable that the markings
are there for a reason.
The bay is signed with the restriction and the markings denote the bay in which the
restriction applies. Again, the parking regulations require proper parking of vehicles
in order not to endanger or inconvenience other users. Where vehicles are parked
over bay markings, valuable parking space is lost and in narrow roads, serious
congestion can arise as a result, as well as restricted access for emergency
vehicles.
In this instance, the street in question is a one way street and therefore, the manner
in which your vehicle was parked would make it difficult for other vehicles to pass.
The location, Chapel Street (Llangollen), has a relevant Traffic Regulation Order
which enables Denbighshire County Council to enforce the restrictions in place.
In relation to any premium rate telephone numbers; please be advised that the
Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations
2013 applies to retailers, traders and passenger transport services – it does not
apply to Local Authorities. Your reasons are therefore not accepted as grounds for
cancellation of the Penalty Charge Notice.

Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on October 26, 2023, 11:00:34 am
Hi

I made the following formal challenge which was rejected the following day, also produced below, advice on what to do next appreciated. I haven't clicked on the links I provided to see if they have been read as I don't want to mess this up, hence why I've removed them in this posting.

Dear Denbighshire County Council,
 
I refer to the Notice to Owner posted on 16/10/23.
 
I wish to challenge liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. There was no indication that vehicles must park within the painted bays, if such a  requirement exists in the traffic regulation order this has not been conveyed to motorists.

I refer you to the decision in Cooper v London Borough of Richmond Upon Thames (1990292199, 18 July 2000) available from LINK1 as followed in the following cases:

Ernesto Villa Blandino v London Borough of Barnet (2110474195, 28 November 2011) at LINK2
Michal Budai v London Borough of Barnet (2120008348, 06 February 2012) at LINK3
Caroline Ratner v London Borough of Barnet (2140338414, 10 September 2014) at LINK4
Cheryl Kuczynski v London Borough of Barnet (2160033974, 30 April 2016) at LINK5
Sultan Gangji v London Borough of Barnet (2160439695, 15 November 2016) at LINK6
Tecwyn Evans v London Borough of Merton (2160499981, 05 January 2017) at LINK7
Gerald Halibard v London Borough of Barnet (2170225166, 15 June 2017) at LINK8
Lamin Sesay v London Borough of Southwark (2180188510, 22 June 2018) at LINK9
Anthony Westmore v London Borough of Barnet (2180064744, 15 March 2018) at LINK10
Keren Lewin v London Borough of Haringey (2190290943, 28 August 2019) at LINK11
 
The links to the above and my third point are provided below.
 

 
Secondly and in any event, in my initial challenge to the PCN you responded by stating “Where vehicles are parked over bay markings, valuable parking space is lost and in narrow roads, serious congestion can arise as a result, as well as restricted access for emergency vehicles”
 
As the photographs you provided to me show I was not causing an obstruction, the road was one way and very wide for any type of vehicle to easily drive past. Neither was I parked over another bay, so no parking space was lost. 
 
Thirdly, the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, because the PCN provides a premium rate number that attracts a surcharge for the council's benefit. For the reasons explained in Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022) available from LINK12.

In light of the above the penalty charge must be cancelled.
 
I look forward to hearing from you

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: cp8759 on October 17, 2023, 08:46:13 pm
I've just received the Notice to Owner. This now quotes the telephone payment as an 0345 number so not premium so does this rule out the premium rate number argument, also does the fact they given the option for online payment which is free also rule it out ?
The answers are no and no. If an excessive demand is made, the council cannot cure that defect by later demanding the correct sum. The fact that there are other payment options that do not incur a surcharge is also irrelevant, this was specifically ruled on by the High Court in London Borough of Camden v The Parking Adjudicator & Ors [2011] EWHC 295 (Admin) (https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/295.html) at paragraph 29:

It makes no difference that the Council identified four mechanisms of payment, only one of which included the surcharge. Having offered that method all motorists were freely entitled to use it and were exposed to the potential demand for 101.3% of the appropriate penalty charge. In these circumstances the Council was demanding a sum to discharge the motorist's liability which was greater than that prescribed by law.

The Notice doesn't reinstate the discounted payment option as I was informed was likely to be the case.
For clarity, the notice to owner must, by law, demand the full amount. However when rejecting representations made against the notice to owner, the council can chose to reoffer the discount and in our experience, virtually all councils do this as long as you challenge the notice to owner within 14 days.
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on October 17, 2023, 10:25:07 am
Hi

I've just received the Notice to Owner. This now quotes the telephone payment as an 0345 number so not premium so does this rule out the premium rate number argument, also does the fact they given the option for online payment which is free also rule it out ?

The Notice doesn't reinstate the discounted payment option as I was informed was likely to be the case.



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on October 16, 2023, 12:56:08 pm
Fair enough, I'll read that, thanks
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: Grant Urismo on October 16, 2023, 11:20:43 am
No, leave it in. The 0485 number on the back of your PCN is premium rate, and Councils regularly lose at the tribunal on this matter. I highly recommend you read the Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council decision that CP8759 posted a link to above, as it will bring you up to speed on this angle.
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on October 15, 2023, 09:20:28 pm
Okay thanks, I'll miss out the premium rate number as the Council in question doesn't operate such a line
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: cp8759 on October 13, 2023, 06:45:26 pm
As I'm not in a position to measure the bay do you think I have any grounds to successfully challenge the ticket as I can't tell from looking at the order ?
I've already given you a draft representation above: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/advice-request-parking-outside-bay/msg5979/#msg5979

Wait for the notice to owner then send that off, obviously make the representation online and make sure to keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. Getting the measurements of the bay would have been a bonus but it's hardly essential.
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on October 11, 2023, 10:15:12 pm
As I'm not in a position to measure the bay do you think I have any grounds to successfully challenge the ticket as I can't tell from looking at the order ?
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on October 10, 2023, 06:30:32 pm
Sorry for the delayed reply, I've  been away on holiday. Thanks for obtaining the order, alas I live 100 miles away from where I got the ticket so am not in a position to measure the bay.
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: cp8759 on October 07, 2023, 12:06:28 am
Could you please go back and measure the width of the bay? You'll need to use a tape measure and get photos, it's occurred to me that it might be below the minimum legal width.

I have also got hold of the traffic order:

The Denbighshire County Council (Prohibition and Restriction of Waiting and Loading and Parking Places) (Consolidation) Order 2021 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1M6bHhaVgfkvYF6oIDFNNe86GDfhD18dD).
The Denbighshire County Council (Prohibition and Restriction of Waiting and Loading and Parking Places) (Consolidation) Variation No.1 Llangollen Order 2022 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1b2ltyAkgqthvBbSZuhmDZ02lXKCUfAWZ).

Map tiles: BH171a (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1GgycTLvgdWtr-OrQv25-AxqiMoVGyvTm), BI170a (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1Y5DadwswMoM7zlrF2CP4qN0Of7122hm2), BI171a (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1uh1trIESfKlV5QEhxUSlOG9c73pnfFGR) & BI172a (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1urG5ELfG5MD7_ycNSGUKWuRbKTOiTtUI).

The relevant requirement is at article 71(v) of the 2021 Order, but of course the point remains that it is for the council to inform you of that.
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: Incandescent on September 29, 2023, 07:28:08 pm
Just to add this was an informal challenge but I assume unless I hear to the contary thaf by definition there is no statutory time to respond
Correct, but they are under a duty as a public body with penal powers granted by Parliament, to act fairly and expeditiously. However, they must issue the Notice to Owner within 6 months, and if over 56 days would need to justify this.

Have a look here: -
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-enforcement-of-parking-contraventions/guidance-for-local-authorities-on-enforcing-parking-restrictions
Councils MUST have regard to this guidance under the TMA 2004.
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on September 29, 2023, 06:16:31 pm
Just to add this was an informal challenge but I assume unless I hear to the contary thaf by definition there is no statutory time to respond
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on September 29, 2023, 09:57:32 am
Okay, thanks
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: Incandescent on September 29, 2023, 09:43:05 am
Legal limit for response to formal challenges, (against a Notice to Owner), is 56 days.
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on September 29, 2023, 05:39:06 am
Just noticed another potential line of defence, Denbighshire Council say they will respond to formal challenges within 28 days. I made my challenge on 14/8/23 but they didn't reply until 23/9/23 does this invalidate anything, as previously stated they re-offered the discount if paid with 14 days
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: cp8759 on September 27, 2023, 05:11:21 pm
Okay thanks Ivan, as I've already made a challenge how do I do this now ?

Also given because the challenge had the effect of extending the discount period by a further 14 days (£25 payable instead of £50) I have to decide if a further challenge is worth it, what are your thoughts on me succeeding, accepting of course that you haven't yet seen the traffic order ?

@sooty12113 you'll have to wait for the notice to owner and then make representations against that, using the draft above.

In practice virtually all councils reoffer the discount at the notice to owner stage as long as you make a representations within the initial 14 days (the notice to owner doesn't tell you about this because by law in can't, but we see enough cases to be able to say that that's how things work).

Please try and stick to keeping all relevant exchanges on here, otherwise when it comes to looking at the thread in the future (especially when it comes to deciding whether to appeal the Traffic Penalty Tribunal) we won't have the full history to hand.
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on September 24, 2023, 08:30:24 pm
Great stuff CP, much appreciated
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: cp8759 on September 24, 2023, 06:34:27 pm
OK so there's the 0845 argument as per Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=11TEzgfHFInCTo-JTFFtWJ8pbIXnMvJCd) and I have this handy FOI response (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=17f1Fby3mtkAmjeRfXPCTW-zE7pdTKEAQ) to use as evidence of their wrongdoing.

Then there's the requirement to convey that you must park within bay markings, see the decisions linked in column D of rows 297 to 307 here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVrE76_RYY6bNmEpYGbsZkxtpfIeud_BT3SKfg7TzQM/edit#gid=642784037).

Finally I will request the traffic order. For now you only need to make informal reps, these will undoubtedly be rejected but it gets the ball rolling.

Dear Denbighshire County Council,

Firstly I challenge liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. There was no indication that vehicles must park within the painted bays, if sucha  requirement exists in the traffic regulation order this has not been conveyed to motorists.

I refer you to the decision in Cooper v London Borough of Richmond Upon Thames (1990292199, 18 July 2000) available from LINK1 as followed in the following cases:

Ernesto Villa Blandino v London Borough of Barnet (2110474195, 28 November 2011) at LINK2
Michal Budai v London Borough of Barnet (2120008348, 06 February 2012) at LINK3
Caroline Ratner v London Borough of Barnet (2140338414, 10 September 2014) at LINK4
Cheryl Kuczynski v London Borough of Barnet (2160033974, 30 April 2016) at LINK5
Sultan Gangji v London Borough of Barnet (2160439695, 15 November 2016) at LINK6
Tecwyn Evans v London Borough of Merton (2160499981, 05 January 2017) at LINK7
Gerald Halibard v London Borough of Barnet (2170225166, 15 June 2017) at LINK8
Lamin Sesay v London Borough of Southwark (2180188510, 22 June 2018) at LINK9
Anthony Westmore v London Borough of Barnet (2180064744, 15 March 2018) at LINK10
Keren Lewin v London Borough of Haringey (2190290943, 28 August 2019) at LINK11

Secondly the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, because the PCN provides a premium rate number that attracts a surcharge for the council's benefit. For the reasons explained in Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022) available from LINK12.

In light of the above the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

I will PM you the links to put in the representation, they will redirect to the same locations as given on the spreadsheet but if you give them the links I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at them or not (obviously do not click on that link yourself as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on them, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the representations. If they say in the rejection that they've considered everything you've said, we've got them for lying as well.
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on September 24, 2023, 04:15:17 pm
Back here, not included the Welsh language section

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: John U.K. on September 24, 2023, 03:40:06 pm
And the back? Mistakes often the 'small print'
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on September 24, 2023, 03:32:23 pm
Apologies, see attached, Chapel St, Ĺlangollen

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: cp8759 on September 24, 2023, 03:11:21 pm
Please start by showing us the PCN (no redactions), at the moment we don't even know where this is so we can't do the most basic of checks.
Title: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
Post by: sooty12113 on September 23, 2023, 10:54:12 am
I appealed a PCN for being parked outside of a bay details and the response with the Council photograph is below

I'd appreciate advice as to if this is worth formally challenging

My Submission

I respectfully wish to challenge the parking ticket issued to me yesterday for apparently “not parking correctly within the markings of the bay or space”

I note that your Civil Enforcement Procedures obtained within the link below in respect of this alleged violation (code 24) states

WPPP Civil Enforcement Procedures

“Not parked correctly within the markings of the bay or space. The contravention occurs when one or more wheels of a vehicle are seen to be parked outside of the markings of a parking bay/space. The fact that the wheels of the vehicle are parked outside of the markings of the parking bay/space means that other parts of the vehicle will be encroaching on the available room in adjacent bays/spaces or causing an obstruction”

Upon seeing the parking ticket attached to my windscreen I took a photograph of my vehicle (attached) which was parked under the appropriate road sign as I had assumed at the time I was being incorrectly charged for parking beyond an hour hence why I didn’t take a photograph from the front of the vehicle.

Whilst I didn’t park my car straight I believe my wheels were within the bay but in the event you have photographic evidence that my passenger side front wheel wasn’t, my photograph does evidence that I wasn’t encroaching on the available room in an adjacent bay or causing any form of obstruction and that the parking sign gave no warning that I must park wholly within a bay.

I hope our visit to XX won’t be tainted by enforcing this ticket.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Kind regards


Response


I have received your challenge dated 14th August 2023 to the above Penalty
Charge Notice and after careful consideration of the circumstances have found
no grounds for the cancellation of the charge.

The Penalty Charge Notice was correctly issued. Your vehicle was not parked
correctly within the markings of the bay or space (see attached photographs
below).

You say that your vehicle was not encroaching on the available room in the
adjacent bay or causing any form of obstruction. You also say that the sign gave
no warning that you must park wholly within the marked bay.

However, the Parking Regulations require proper parking of vehicles in order not
to endanger or inconvenience other users. Where vehicles are parked over bay
markings, valuable parking space is lost and in narrow roads, serious congestion
can arise as a result, as well as restricted access for emergency vehicles.
Please also note that there are no requirements for there to be signs at every
parking area/bay to warn drivers that a Penalty Charge Notice will be issued if
parked in contravention of the parking restrictions. The bay is clearly marked and
it is the driver’s responsibility to ensure that they have parked fully within the
marked bay. Your reasons are therefore not accepted as grounds for cancellation
of the Penalty Charge Notice


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